Reinvented

I have gone through a touch of metamorphosis in the past few months. I have begun to understand, and develop an action plan for uniting the various belief systems which hold the concept of magick together. But first, I must solidify the concept thoroughly. Let us dissect.

According to many wonderful and undoubtably powerful magicians, the mystery is in the mind. The rituals we all use are essentially training wheels, and representative focal points for our attention. They also allow the primal part of us to “buy in” to the act being done, due to the concept cause and effect.

From a psychological viewpoint (my background), belief is the anchor point which allows us to beat down the left (logical, empirical-evidence based) brain enough to impress a notion upon our subconscious minds. Once this is done, things get a bit… tricky however.

Many start seeing “signs” or “spirits” in their daily lives, but due to their obsession and fascination with said signs, they are then followed by few to no results. This, or, they simply continue to fixate on the problem at hand, which overrides their initial belief entirely. We can call this “lust for results,” but in mechanical terms, the left brain begins working on the situation again, taking the control away from the more powerful subconscious, and imprinting new (uncertain) information where the initial imprint was left. Which is dissatisfying, as these signs, or “issues” which arise are little more than cognitive bias which simply implies a successful “self-hypnosis” of sorts, or proper implantation of the given idea.

Keep with me. I have a point.

From a spiritual perspective, some may call upon angels, demons, or gods. But as the chaos magicians quickly grasp, the belief itself is the powerhouse of the operation. Thus implying the need for subconscious recognition of the desired goal having been reached, regardless of the means or tools being used. Whether through ritual, prayer, whatever. However, for those of us who are more analytical and skeptical be it due to our education, experiences of powerlessness, or just plain lack of whimsical/imaginative tendencies; this can be incredibly difficult to overlook. Be that mainstream psychology only offers support in the sense of altering ones own behavioral patterns through such methodology ( but not effecting remote circumstances, which is what we are generally after on forums such as these). Which implies that we are simply fooling ourselves into seeing things, and altering our subconscious behavior to effect our approaches to people and situations in our immediate surroundings. Nothing more.

And so, to me, this where the line is drawn.

Those who choose to cease to pursue past the point of “fooling” themselves find themselves in the group aforementioned, achieving no results, and walking away feeling stupid for being so reckless with their beliefs.

However the other group are the ones I choose to focus on. The master magicians, whom are identified not by their practices, but by their results. Notably, results which confound and are very much outside of an “average” scope of influence or probability. There is some parapsychology notably focused on the connection of our subconscious minds to the whole of creation (meaning shared awareness between each of us, or the ability to communicate/influence others), as well as astral travel which implies energy/consciousness transference remotely. And many theories within LOA which imply that our subconscious literally manufactures our reality and the events/people in it. Don’t even get me started on how basically every world religion implies a variation of this, as it’s simply too much information to shift through in one post.

Regardless, putting the notion of a master magician together with masters of these other schools of thought, they must be capable of reliably and successfully imprinting belief into their minds, not just suggesting it in a shaky manner, and tapping into the collective unconscious to send it into existence. Then, they must also possess the patience, fortitude, and awareness necessary to leave the thought alone in pure belief. Which explains why many of the greatest magicians in lore lived lives of isolation. They simply wanted no cluttering stimuli or contradicting evidence to enter their minds while their desires were brought to fruition. But again, that is a topic for later.

My point:

Perhaps it is best not to fixate so much on the imaginative immersion/delusion of interacting with spirits (this is the only true fallacy I’ve been able to detect), and more on the mind which is unable to accept the belief of results being given. Not to say EVERY interaction with spirits is false by any means. I know that. I have spoken with them too. But there is a clear oversaturation of ridiculous ramblings which can only be reconciled with the nearing onset of mental illness.

On forums like this, I have found VERY few who produce the types of verifiable results which indicate more than simple changes in others reactions to them were at play (which while useful is not quite that interesting to me, feel free to disagree). The only reason I mention this is to caution newcomers from taking techniques from those without results to show for them, as this shows their method of imprinting to be flawed, or subjective.

I also intend this post as a beacon for those who DO produce such results to make themselves known, share their thoughts, and help me break some illusions in both myself and this forum. Keep in mind, I do not wish to attack anyones personal beliefs, I am simply offering some meta analysis for what I’ve learned in the past few months.

So,

What do you think?

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This is my overall approach to this subject:

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Don’t get me wrong, I very much respect the live-and-let-live type of philosophy you’re alluding to. And I mean no disrespect. I’m simply trying to advance the agenda for those studying magick to create real and concrete changes in THEIR realities. Magick can be taught. Which means despite the difference in our perceptions of reality, there is a golden thread of Truth (capital T) that runs through which allows this concept to work. In other words, there is some fact here. Therefore, I seek to dissipate the unnecessary information and personal adornment and get down to said facts.

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@Lady_Eva @Verdo @DarkestKnight @AdamThoth @C.Wilson @ReyCuervo

Input?

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Easy there, mate. Quite a bunch of people here have to fight mental illness. Due to the nature of my own suicidal tendencies, I know this isn’t aimed at people like me, since I don’t have hallucinations, but some people may feel offended when we both know that wasn’t your intention at all, my friend.

I’m trying to get others to corroborate what I’m trying to do; it’s cool to see you say that, since I don’t feel is just insecurity on my end.

All in all, there is the point a thousand times said: the power resides in the occultist, so I think in general terms everyone agrees in that.

Now, the rest… while I admit that I’m a very hard guy to impress (and that goes for spirits too), I think there is a little TOO much awe for spirits around here; I understand that the lore says they are 13983283 years old and wise and powerful. Yeah, a nuke can vaporize me and I don’t kneel in front of it for that.

All in all, the idea of imprinting the will upon the world to create change sounds solid. I can run behind it.

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Firstly, it seems like you’ve at least seen my BALG repository thread (You liked the post). If so, im not quite sure how you can say that you’ve seen very little proof of people producing results which indicate more than simple changes in others reactions. Like…did you just glaze over the whole baneful section of that thread where at one moment, a prick was alive and well…then the next they were dead? Thats a pretty big verifiable change in a persons state of being dont you think? People don’t just drop dead willy nilly…especially in the western world, where the vast majority of people make it past their 60th birthday. I’ve said many times that the best proof of magicks efficacy is through baneful workings. Its very difficult to so flippantly dismiss the death of a target as “just a coincidence” unless you’re just really trying hard to not believe. Even moreso if you’ve done several baneful workings.

I’ve also had my fair share of pretty undeniable experiences…chief amongst those was the time i sent Dra’talon, a demon from EA’s grimoire to attack someone. A few months after the ritual, the target came to me and told me that he was attacked in the night while in bed by an entity that was made of like a black smoke…and it started choking him. Every time he tried to move its hands off him, the targets hands would just pass right through its gaseous body. Well…lo and behold, when you look at the description of Dra’talon in the book…he is described as an entity essentially made of a dark mist/fog. So it was pretty clear at that point that i had made contact with a real entity/force outside of my own mind. Additionally, it caused harm to the person which I would say passes your threshold of a verifiable result which produced more than a simple change in anothers reaction

You have many other instances like this in that BALG repository thread, which is why im confused by your statement of there being a lack of evidence of people producing significant changes in others…but i’ll point your attention to a couple that come to mind.

Here is a story of a user turning a straight girl gay using a demon

This is a story of someone summoning a demon, and having it appear in the dream of a roommate who had zero knowledge of magick or the demon in question

There’s a reason why you struggled to get people to respond to this thread. When it comes to proof of this stuff, and verifiable results…skeptics usually are never satisfied by what you provide…especially over the internet…so its usually viewed as a waste of time. At the end of the day, this is all just text on a page…so you need to be somewhat realistic in your expectations of what kind of evidence someone can post here that would convince you of anything. I mean…how do you know that I didn’t just make up the story I shared with you above? You don’t…which is why it’s important to view anything you read on here in its proper context.

BALG is a free, open sourced library. Not every book in a library is going to be a good one…so yeah, I’m going to listen to some users more than other ones. And even when you do find a book that is compelling, it is still nothing more than text on a page. The most compelling books are the ones that we can corroborate through personal experience. For instance, I pick up a cook book from a library, and from that book I read several interesting recipes. To test their voracity, I follow the recipes myself and create a great meal because of it…therefore solidifying my experience with the text.

This is why the best verifiable results are the results you create for yourself. If the ~ 200 stories in the BALG Repository weren’t satisfying enough, then you aren’t likely going to be satisfied by anything anyone posts here.

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Hey Verdo! :smile: I actually really appreciate the bluntness of your response as it is a side of you I haven’t seen much throughout my time on this forum. Very refreshing, and honestly deserved considering the (unintended) tone of my post. Since I do not know how to use the quoting function yet, I hope you’ll bear with me:

As to my apparent skepticism, though admittedly I am a bit less suggestible than most and require more analytical structure for my own beliefs to flourish, I promise I’m not taking the stance of the average idiot claiming falsity of all the works being done here. I know better than that. I’ve seen things myself that blow my mind. And in fact, your repository is one of the primary reasons I DO believe there is more to this forum than meets the eye.

I understand that all we can do is share our subjective experiences. But there are a few cases (some of which you mentioned) that are entirely beyond the scope of average, and those types of results are the ones I am reaching towards myself. Which is why my primary objective is to uncover, or at least begin an intellectual discussion about the link between these amazing feats which allows them to occur without the derailment of unnecessary mysticism and dogmatism (which I’m surprised to see so much of here, though I do understand its source being the nature of belief). All of this requires sifting the chaff, so to speak. But I certainly only wish to learn from these magicians, yourself included, and analyze their mental approach more thoroughly. Not alienate them with the fear of doubt.

I should’ve been more clear about that, and I apologize for any disrespect that came across. I do realize now the limitations and proverbial “cop outs” indicated by my own statements. I did somewhat generalize by saying “very few,” when a more accurate term would’ve been “relatively few.” And I very much understand why others might hesitate to offer their own experiences, despite that being my only goal in posting my “challenge.” But I say now what I shouldve said in my post:
I do not immediately dismiss experiential evidence or results so much as I wish for people to dig deeper and understand the mental processes that occurred before they came about.

Anyhow, I have only love for you @Verdo, for this forum, and the true magicians who do call it home. I am here to learn, and to grow. So thank you for helping me correct my approach in seeking that knowledge, and for all the wisdom you share.

:love_you_gesture::pray::fire:

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Hey brother! :blush: Long time no speak!

I’m glad you understood my intent, though I do apologize for my abrasive approach to mental illness. I have struggled with a deep depression for much of my life, which only began to be alleviated earlier this year as I learned more about state-shifting and whatnot. That’s besides the point though. I only have empathy for those struggling, and I do not mean to jab at that.

I only intended to point out that much of the information given by “role-players” on this forum is not only misleading, but dangerous to the healthy development of new magicians who truly wish to learn the underlying mechanisms of magick. Some of this information can only come from a mind lacking a reliable sense of reality/reason (from my perspective), or an outright troll, which is why my frustration towards them came out a bit… unfocused. Regardless, I’m sorry man. Mental health is not a joke, and I will be more careful about that.

But I’m glad I’m not the only one who can discern the blurring lines of practical and excessive deity worship/communication. I truly want to see this forum develop into a SERIOUS platform for magicians to organize and disseminate information. And I know that much of it is still not wholly understood, even by the best. But I want to further it just a tiny bit if I am able, by opening that discussion and analyzing the psychological and spiritual implications in their results.

Nothing but love, @ReyCuervo. I have mad respect for you, as you and Verdo actually helped me begin this ascent to understanding. And I have been reading up on your progress since. You’re the best :facepunch:

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Yeah, about that… much has been discussed about the topic, but really, there isn’t that much that anyone can do.

Glad you’re pushing forwards on your path.

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I liked how you worded this nicely done

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I fervently wish there was an account setting that would let a user mute/filter posts from other users. That would at least offer some respite.

Well, this a little ironic as I have the nickname the Mad Sorcerer lol. I took some time to think about this one. But to be honest, I do agree with what has been said for the most part.

I tend to divide my experience into two categories: magic and gnosis. The magic aspect is focused primarily on actual change in my reality. It requires looking at my practice at very point blank. Either the change manifested within the time frame I included in the spell, or it did not. There is no in between in my eyes and my results are recorded to review so I can determine what is to be scratched or kept. Whether or not individuals incorporate spirits into that is up to them, but the change can most definitely be made without them through the individual in my eyes. I can see how an over fixation on signs from the spirits can cause failure, which I would label under the gnosis category.

I don’t really see it being an applicable in terms beyond self experimentation in terms of examining other people’s work though, as some individuals (not all but they are out there) have a tendency to say that the fish they caught was a few inches longer than it actually was. Not to say that it is always intentional, but our memories can be a bit fickle with that. You see this a lot in social media in general, so my approach is to pretty much live and let live instead of arguing. That is why I encourage individuals to explore and test things out on their own, my work included.

The gnosis is all the other stuff that one may acquire from spirits. In my current work, the topic of being a king comes up (“a king focuses on this”, “a king does not do this”, etc). Am I going to be a king here by the end of it? While I would not mind holding some political power, I highly doubt it by the fact of how societies are ran today. There is just nothing that would raise someone to that point in a literal sense to my knowledge. That is where I believe if it is something that one decides to focus on, needs to be dissected. If there is something useful out of the more spiritual experience, it should be extracted. If there is not, well then it is just something interesting in my eyes meant to just enrich the experience and let it go (last part being very important). But this just my philosophy, as I try to lean towards being more practical.

Overall, I would say that my personal view is that the skill aspect (magic) is definitely something that can be and should be evaluated by the individual. I would argue both with and without spirits at least once so both approaches can be explored. I would agree that the spiritual aspect (gnosis) can lead to distractions and be ineffective in producing real change if not dissected by the individual. However, I would not say that there is no value in that avenue either, as it could be effective to bringing real change if examined and applied if it can be. If not, well that is up to the individual. That’s how I view it, and I hope it makes some sense.

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You actually can by going to their profile and clicking the Normal tab underneath message. You can then change it to ignore to block replies, notifications and threads from users if you choose to.

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Absolute legend, thank you

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No problem at all :slight_smile:

As a scientist, and long winded mansplaner like yourself I feel you. What you need to do is reconcile science and magick into a single cohesive whole. I sent you a PM let’s do this.

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Okay well I think I better understand what you’re trying to get at here, and yes I apologize if my tone came across as abrasive. I’ve been through this rodeo several times with skeptics on the forums and it often begins/ends the same way.

But to get at what you’re saying though…do these spirits actually exist and what not, or is it all the mind? Well, it’s hard to say one way or another, however there’s bits of circumstancial evidence that points me towards these spirits being real autonomous forms of consciousness outside of our own minds.

Firstly, I find it interesting that if you do an evocation for something like attracting a particular love interest, but instead of going with a love demon, you choose one unrelated to love…maybe a baneful demon, the operation quite often doesn’t work. You would think that if all this is simply in the mind, and these entities/sigils we rely upon are just props…then why would it matter what entity I picked for any objective? It reminds me of how EA in his course described how he one time tried recruiting Paimon to help heal his daughter but he couldn’t do it because it wasn’t within Paimons skillset so he went with Raphael instead. A little odd I think for something that is supposedly driven entirely by us. If the power purely comes from us when we do sigil work/evocations…why would it matter so much that I pick the right entity for the job? Why couldn’t EA heal his sick daughter with Paimon?

Secondly, I find the persistence of the chosen form these spirits like to manifest in as further proof that perhaps these spirits really do exist. Take the example I made above in the previous post about my use of dra’talon. Now, when I summoned dra’talon, I wasn’t all that fixated on what EA described him to look like as my senses at the time weren’t able to even see spirits…to the point that when the target mentioned to me what had happened to him, it took me a while to register that it was dra’talon based on his description. Now how is it that my target, who is completely detached from me, saw the exact form that this entity likes to appear as? Now it’s one thing for dra’talon to appear to me that way, because one could say that his written description influenced my mind to see him in that specific way…but it’s another thing entirely for someone who is completely unaware of who dra’talon is and what he looks like, to see him exactly the same way that he is described in a book they never read. This suggests to me perhaps a level of persistence of consciousness to express itself in ways you would only see from something acting autonomously from us… outside of our own bodies and minds. These entities imo are as real as you or I. It is consciousness simply expressing itself in a different form from what we are familiar with

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I’m seriously wondering some days how much unscrupulous demons take credit for other demons (and entities) work and pass it off as their own while going to someone else to ask to have it done for the magician. It seems that power is in who you know and getting them to do favors for you.

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Thanks man. Glad it resonated :smile:

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I’ll never stop til I know :sunglasses: