My Problems With Dharma Philosophy Even Though I Find It Interesting

Even though I like Tantric mythology,I feel I may like it for the wrong reasons as I see issues with it in that all of them say basic human existence is something to escape from as it is nothing but misery and the material world is profane and an illusion. I don’t think this way so I am like a complete heretic to the traditional Dharmic path. I like it mainly for the aesthetics which is shunned by easterners because sense enjoyment and desire are supposed to be suffering. I’m the complete opposite of the path. What they call Samsara is basic human existence. I also reject the idea of complete emptiness because it seems to imply nihilism no matter how you try to look at it. The idea that nothing has any inherent existence and is devoid of all qualities except what we place on them (which they call delusion because everything is just a collection of aggregates meant to just exist and die) is super depressing. To me its far beyond human thought. The state of non-duality is oneness with everything and non-discrimination. But I will always have things I desire and things I don’t no matter what and don’t seek to drop those views because some things are always wrong like SA for instance. Id rather see an eternal source and interpret it that way or have something that I actually long for and am willing to suffer for, a passion, a lover, a companion. So what if it contradicts their way of thinking and even creates a new school of thought. In a way, I believe so called samsara can lead to enlightenment. That is the way of most LHP philosophy.

I believe we should immerse in sense enjoyment, pursue desires, and gain the attainments to help both ourselves and others. If doing that sends us to hell then so be it. And anyway, the so called Bardo or Hells simply a state of mind and if you reject that illusion of the mind, then it ceases to exist right?

I don’t see the material world as a place to escape from, but a place to master and become one with because everything is interconnected. It’s all about reaching the deathless indestructible vajra body, not complete cessation pf existence. It’s about transcending birth and death and creating a world that’s best for you and others.

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I agree with you 100%.

I also have a worldview that is slightly different, in that the animal we are incarnate into has it’s own mind and we are sort of possessing it, which solves the problem of how can “you’re an incarnate higher being that’s immortal” work alongside “consciousness is biological”, and I think it’s both…

But then I see this nihilism as hypocritical for a system that claims to be compassionate - if we are riding an animal as a symbiotic, or “aggregate” being as I call it (closer to the Norse model) then it’s not compassionate to the animal we incarnated into to deny it it’s mind (the ego) or attempt to crush and defeat it. Better to work WITH it as we are designed to do, teach it, help it become sovereign as we are.

So in my mind Dharma Philosophy fundamentally fails us as human beings and higher beings, by sabotaging the entire point of incarnating in the first place, which was to experience being human but also possibly to help bring new enlightened beings into immortal, sovereign existence.

It has a vibe, to me, of “Oh fuck I hate this get me out of here” and is kind of suicidal really, as rejoining with source destroys you as an individuated spirit. That resonates for me so I sympathise with the “life is suffering”, but it’s cope. It’s not supposed to be suffering it’s supposed to be experience imo, and the suffering part is a cultural issue from a lot of people not working with or understanding their animals properly, collectively creating shitty, fear-based, collectively self-defeating societies as a result.

However Tantra seems to be more about working with the animals energy system and I wonder if raising kundalini isn’t how we get our animal to become like us, immortal, but I haven’t formed a clear position of that yet, having not raised my kundalini myself to meditate on it.

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That is why real Buddhism never made any sense to me. I studied many of the world’s religions and Buddhism, as taught by Siddhartha, was so far out there with ‘all existence is pain’. I mean, on one level it makes sense. If you never care about anything you cannot get hurt by anything. But to have eternal nothingness as your goal is not something I want to head toward.

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I mean, existence is pain. I can see why there is an obsession with it in various forms and why most of everything can be boiled down to various flavors of nilhilism.

It’s not wrong but I agree it is not correct/right either. I mean why should pain be a bad thing when plants and criters- things often called lower beings- aren’t stopped by it?

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Welcome to the forum @RC1812 !

That one is easy to answer: it’s a very basic survival of the species requirement. Pain also provides chemical signals to the immune system to mobilize healing mechanisms. We’re supposed to act to avoid pain as that helps us survive. Emotions are how we make decisions, ergo, we must have a negative emotional reaction to pain, which means we label it “bad”. We also have inbuilt reactions to pain that cause us to recoil from it faster than the higher brain can process the stimulus to register it as “pain”. Call it an artifact of being an animal.

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Yeah… over time, a less traditional way of thinking born about these points. Yoga (liberation) and bhoga (enjoyment) being able to “coexist”; Aurobindo wanting to bring Spirit on earth/body rather than ascending to some pure sky; observing feelings of pleasure and pain to get their real messages; and the human being having become so united to the body that, instead of detach, it would be better to practice for example Pranayama etc.
Also, indeed who walks the path is a person as well; as such, deserving wellbeing and so on.

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Well yes, it’s a basic need for survival and is not pleasant and interferes with logic/thinking and decision making. I can shut you down and have you go stupid and avoid things that need to get done.

It can be addictive, fear, control and power and the material always can be. Distracting and cause detachement and avoidance.

Yet to have it is freedom. To not have it is subjugation to those who have the power of it over you.

Emptiness and simplicity are safe and bound you.
Fullness and complications are messy, not safe but the consequences are your own.

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I prefer dark vajra which is more about the practice as opposed to the philosophy, and from what i heard not to be spoken of. Vajra itself was secret until it wasn’t

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First of all:
Although I do agree with much of the OP’s opinion and most of the following posts, I do think there’s some misconceptions about Buddhism and Dharma in general… (perhaps some remnant religious indoctrination we all suffer from to some extend?)

I am no Buddhist. As eastern spiritual philosophies go, I subscribed more to the Taoist philosophy (not some much the theistic part, that’s a little too “Marvel universe” to me) as an addition to my other main philosophies. But Buddhism has some beautiful and powerful views, in my opinion.

Even Buddhism in it’s more political form was never meant to be used to overthrow other religions and dominate other cultures and have them submit to the one and only true Gautama Buddha (Except maybe a weeee little bit in feudal Japan to keep out the round-eyed colonizing demons and their Christianity). It is like that in a spiritual regard as well. Never meant to be seen as the one and only truth and to be followed by every human.

In the spiritual form of Buddhism you’re actually meant to experience the material, the riches and the desires through several incarnations. Don’t forget that last fact, your path is an overview of many lifetimes not just this one. Only when you have experienced that pursuing this is empty and brings at least as much suffering as it brings pleasure and come to an incarnation where you really don’t feel like repeating that same empty chase. Then Buddhism is one of the ways to pursue a greater spiritual path to enlightenment/ ascension.

I would like to emphasize that… It is one of the paths and meant for those that resonate with it.

So please don’t treat it as if it where meant as the one and only truth. You are totally free to not want to subscribe to Dharma, you should follow your own path, have your own experiences and go through your own evolution and ascension. Any serious Buddhist would fully agree to that.

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I agree with you 100%. Magickal escapism is a major peeve of mine; it smacks of cowardice to my way of thinking.

I’d rather use magick to face the world head-on and overcome it as a way to master destiny.

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@Cyberpunk.Kitten

What you described in your topic has nothing to do with Dharma.

I think you should have said escapism rather than Dharma.

Dharma is much more pure and profound. It’s the essence of life, your main reason here on earth, without it you do not incarnate here

Ignoring dharma leads to both spiritual and material troubles, you won’t even be able to enjoy your life

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Tried to edit my previous post but couldn’t find a way to :sweat_smile: is there a time limit for editing posts?

As a Dharma practictioner (more commonly, Buddhist) and having quite seriously and deeply delved in Buddhist studies/practices I would love to explain a few points that, maybe,
could help correct a couple misconceptions. I’ll talk about all of this from the Mahayana perspective.

Please, keep in my mind that my faulty mind can play tricks on me, but I’ll try my best to report things as I understood and remember them. Therefore, don’t take my word for it, as I could be mistaken. It’s also worth mentioning that I learned most of Dharma terms in my mother tongue, and although I’ll try my best to translate it in English, some terms could be slightly different; I hope they’ll convey the meaning just as effectively as the most common sanskrit to english translation.

Firstly I’d like to explain how the Buddha talked about 2 types of phenomena (events, things, everything that can be perceived falls into a category of phenomena. Phenomena are, quite literally, everything you can think of -a leaf, the sun, a computer, the internet, a thought, a feeling, light, a concept- literally anything).

  1. Clear Phenomena
  2. Obscure Phenomena

A couple of examples of obscure phenomena are enlightenment, infinity, past lives karmic connections. (there are also Very Obscure Phenomena but we won’t go into that)

The different between them is that Clear Phenomena are easily understood and/or experienced. Obscure Phenomena are harder to understand, and to experience.

Therefore, won’t talk much about obscure and very obscure phenomena, as, mostly, they are to be experienced and can’t be easily understood conceptually in their totality.

For those wondering why, then, the Buddha even talked about them, I’ll briefly explain why these concepts can be useful.

As magick practitioners, when we do a ritual, we often time ‘‘pretend’’ the result has already happened, as in, feeling as though the ritual was successful and our result has come about, even if it hasn’t. This can be useful also as a method to counteract the lust for results.
By ‘‘pretending’’ the result has come about, reality shifts in that direction.
Same thing goes with spirits, by pretending they are there, oftentimes they are called forth by that very feeling of certainty that they are there, or so I heard.

In a similar way, when the Dharma Teacher or Path has earned enough of our trust, can use these concepts to imagine a reality in which these things are true. Therefore making us, eventually, experience them as a reality.

That’s why one of the Tantra practices is to visualize oneself as Buddha. In my understanding, it’s because eventually, that very act will make it become a reality. (I advise against doing this, as it’s fruitless unless there is a thorough conceptual understanding a what a Buddha is).

In summary, I explained there are 2 types of phenomena, but we won’t go into the second type because it’s not useful for the purpose of understand the basics of Dharma. Also, please forgive me but I may be wrong on the classification on certain phenomena (for example, I don’t remember what type of phenomena emptiness is, although I remember there being two types of emptiness, that which is understood and that which is experienced).
I also explained why the Buddha taught about them, so to assure you they were taught for a reason, but that reason doesn’t apply until Dharma has been practiced and studied enough for them to be useful.

Also, it’s worth noting the Buddha, in appearance, contradicted himself. That is widely known, and himself said that the reason was because different beings require different teachings. A Buddha is omniscient, and perfectly knows what each individual or group needs at a given time, based on their intellectual capacities, their dispositions, their past experiences and so on. The teachings, ultimately, were never contradictory, but just had that appearance. Upon closer inspection, one can find that each and every word uttered by the Buddha was but a piece of a puzzle, to make this grand teaching that will be only then understood as non-contradictory.

Ok, after this ample introduction, I’ll try to go through post by post trying to dispel a couple of misconceptions and confirm what people (in my humble, and wrong more often than not, opinion) got right.

I see issues with it in that all of them say basic human existence is something to escape from as it is nothing but misery and the material world is profane and an illusion.

The Buddha said samsara (which is what is associated with ‘‘BASIC human existence’’) is something to go beyond.
Not to escape from without looking back, but something to be fully understood to only then be abandoned, for one cannot escape samsara without knowing it completely (indeed the Buddha taught that one must wholly understand ‘‘conventional reality’’-aka samsara- before having a chance to understand ‘‘ultimate reality’’-aka nirvana).
Human existence, on the other hand, doesn’t need to be samsara. The Buddha was a human, and he was perfectly happy and content.
The material world (as in, material phenomena) was never described as profane, nor an illusion. Deluded is the perception of it from a samsaric mind, but the world itself is not either profane or an illusion.

Interesting little story I heard from one of my Precious Teachers.
One time, hundreds of years ago, a Zen Master pointed at a turd.
He said: ‘‘That is the Buddha’’.
The monks were utterly flabbergasted, they thought their Master had gone crazy.
But one of them smiled.
He understood what the Master was trying to explain: there is nothing profane, nothing filthy in the world itself. It’s our perception, our experience of it, in relation to ourselves.

Now I’m getting a bit tired of writing, I’ll continue my poorly crafted rant tomorrow. Hopefully I’ll be able to find a way to edit the post :sweat_smile:

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Thank you for giving such an indepth explanation!

And yes, there is a time limit of a few hours or so to editing posts. Maybe one of the mods can open an older post to editting, when you request it.

Yes, there’s a short window of 15 minutes or so where it lets you edit and then that closes and it’s fixed.

Agreed. “Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” – Shakespeare

That doesn’t mean everything is equally wanted or cannot be unwanted, common sense prevails.

This is where people such as I see the nihilism. Words like “beyond”, “escape” and “abandon” in English imply something was unwanted, a mistake and is overall negative and a think to be avoided, left behind.

I do not agree that “samsara” is something to “escape”, or be embraced temporarily as a means to the end of abandoning it. I think it’s exactly why we are here and what we are supposed to be doing. How can you use these concepts your self and not see that this is self negating? This looks, from the outside, like cognitive dissonance. You SAY it’s not nihilistic while everything you explain it as is completely nihilistic.

I think spirits chose to incarnate for the express purpose of the experience, that in the doing we are fulfilling a purpose for the universe to know itself. To escape it is to abdicate that purpose and responsibility. And why? Because it’s hard? This is what I see as weak. They started to do this thing we call life, and then didn’t like it so they want to stop the world and get off.

But we are not children that didn’t know what we were doing, which means it’s the human ego that wants to stop, not the spirit, and Buddhists are egotistically letting their spirits down, as well as not taking proper care of the animal ego as a kind caretaker should, and going against the divine will that prompted them to become sovereign spirits in the first place. This is not done out of compassion or understanding, not for the ego, not for the spirit, and not for the universe, it’s done out of fear of the pain of being alive.

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What you said has many similarities with my UPG as well, in which I often receive (mind you, not in a ritualistic space) swinging in my hammock and philosophizing. Sometimes I feel like I’m chatting with some entities, Lucifer and Hecate were the main ones, and in what seemed to be just an imaginary chat, there were always questions and other points of view that didn’t seem to be mine.

And the answer I got (both from my HGA and from the entities) was that in fact the human experience is the perfect condensation. I’ve often wanted to search for the esoteric meanings of sacred texts that are masked and misrepresented, and I’ve even concluded that, in my opinion, our “meaning of life” (I’m talking about humanity in general, because in fact you make your own meaning of life) is precisely for the Source to feel things individually and with its own experiences.

Entities and animals also serve this purpose, which is why each entity and animal is unique… You can’t say that Asmodeus is Raziel, Raziel is Raziel and Asmodeus is Asmodeus; the same goes for animals, even those of the same species each have their own lives and can go through different experiences.

The reason Source chose us to be (not necessarily that term) the favorites is because of our ability to feel materialism and spiritualism at the same time. In my UPGs, I was even told that even entities close to matter (such as Exus, Djinns and Lwa) can sense our world, but not as accurately as we can.

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I also have a lot of problems with this Karma business. I think, again, from seeing various opinions from people who believe in it, that it has a very human instinctive streak (of wanting universal justice for those who, in their view, do wrong). My mother, for example, when in a long traffic jam a car overtook her to get in front, and when we arrived at the supermarket parking lot and found a free space first, the car that had passed us was still looking for a space, my mother said that this was the “karma of the universe”.

Not only that, but I think this Karma business was created by some insecure leaders of secret Orders so that students of magic wouldn’t try to attack them if they didn’t agree with the direction the Order was taking, and so that the students themselves wouldn’t have the independence to use magic in personal cases, only being able to attack people the Order considered “bad and evil” (which could often be simple people from other religions or from other Orders). I see this Karma theory as something a bit lazy to want the Universe to act to defend others, instead of the person themselves taking the initiative and doing what they think is right. Many people in my country let criminals go unpunished because they believe that “God will do justice”.

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Yes I agree, but you say it better than I could. :slight_smile:

Other mages also come to this conclusion: this also agreed with E.A. Koetting’s channel from Azazel in The Book of Azazel, that entities often want to be us, experience through us, and work with us to help us because we (physically incarnate spirits) are the pinnacle of spiritual evolution that they aspire to. “The heirachy is thus: The operator, then everything else in existence”. Like a gas cloud coalesces into a star, dense but very bright and evolved.

Yes, hence “become a living god” to realise the full potential of this, by developing the best available outcome of all levels of being - from the physical to the psychic to the spiritual - have a strong body and strong mind, well regulated emotions, and omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence.

I don’t know if there aren’t other species on other planets, maybe, working on the same idea… maybe further developed but maybe less. My own UPG and inferences imply these exist.

I once thought, if anybody should know it would be the ascended masters (assuming those are real too) but I’ve not yet seen anyone with UPG that a so-called ascended master has talked about this (not that I’ve looked very hard) - they seem to essentially be Earthbound and essentially very powerful ghosts. So I suspect becoming “immortal” and “ascending” without the body, although they’d retained sense of self, is a lesser result, as you no longer have the power available from having a physical body. Still, a better alternative to undergoing the memory wipe you get reincarnating if those are your only two options.

Interesting! Makes sense to me. As above so below. There’s no reason to assume they can see our world more clearly than we can see theirs. Your subconscious can only show you what your conscious mind can understand, using skills that take practice.

Agreed, or to maintain a caste system by blaming the downtrodden for as being bad and that’s why they are abused.

I see modern use of karma as classic victim-blaming abuser tactics and a familiar human power play not spiritual at all. A better system would allow for people to better themselves when they try at least. I can see “karma” as a word to remind people that they are connected energetically to the environment and people around them, and that these energy flows affect us, like currents in water, but it gets used as an excuse for irresponsibility and bad behaviour.

100% Likewise if you can swim out of the current it won’t bother you, so you can create a wave of negativity by being harmful to people, and “the universe” won’t do anything to “right” that, as there’s no wrong here on that level of being - it doesn’t care any more than the ocean does.

It’s what we do as conscious beings that counts, and being irresponsible only creates chaos and meaninglessness, which bothers us an not the universe. Which again the universe doesn’t care about, it’s all just experience, but in our frame of reference, we care, and we’re supposed to. By our design. Therefore, we have to be the ones that create order and control our systems to our design. Our design as the gods of our own world. It takes effort, risk and thoughtfulness many are too lazy or afraid to do. These people create problems for the rest of us with their cowardice. Nobody said being human was easy, it’s not for the faint of heart.

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What Buddhism are you specifically talking about? TY
I was a little confused when you posted about Tantra and Buddhism together. I have only seen Tantra discussed as a form of Hinduism.

I’ll continue here from the last post. I know it’s a very long explanation but as I said it’s a puzzle, and without the pieces I, hopefully, will be able to give you, a lot of ‘‘pieces’’ you already got won’t be able to be understood, in terms of their usefulness.

I love your points Mulberry, they are well thought and articulated, I’ll address them as soon as I reach them, I’ll try to address each post chronologically.

Firstly, I’d like to tell you a couple of points that the Buddha kept repeating about all of his teachings:

• They are not the truth, but a finger pointing to the Truth
• If not understood, they must not be practiced
• They must be ready to be dropped like hot iron, for there will come a moment in which the Truth will be revealed, and the teaching will be an obstacle for understanding it

Now, there are a couple things to be gathered from this.

Being nothing but a finger that points to the Truth, they are not the Truth.
If they are nothing but a direction, it means that other teachings (or other fingers) could be pointing to the same Truth. Therefore, any path leading to the Truth (conceptually called enlightenment, buddhahood, and so on), is Dharma. The Buddha called Dharma any path that would lead to the truth. An action can be Dharma. A thought can be Dharma. Another whole path can be called Dharma, for that leads to the Truth. The Buddhadharma is simply one of those paths. If it doesn’t resonate with us, there’s no reason to follow it, for that path is not our path.

They must be ready to be dropped like hot iron because there could come a time in which the Truth will reveal itself to us, but our concepts of it, which are fundamentally incorrect because ungraspable by thought, will prevent us from experience it, quite literally tainting it.

That being said, nothing logical stops us from the notion that, from an ‘‘ultimate’’ point of view, each and every word ever spoken by the Buddha could be false, and probably is.

I’ll soon try to explain the difference between ‘‘Conventional truth’’ and ‘‘Ultimate Truth’’, as it’s fundamental to the understanding of different concepts that will follow.
To be put extremely simply, and hoping this won’t be misunderstood, you could think of a table.
From a conventional perspective, it’s a table.
From an ultimate perspective, it’s a table, it’s not a table; it’s not different than a table, and it’s different from a table. Pretty confusing eh. That’s what conceptual emptiness tastes like. That’s what happens when trying to explain ultimate reality using conventional reality means. Kinda gives headaches at first, especially if explained poorly like I did. That’s why it’s not our concern, for this is not useful, for now.

In all of this post, and the previous one, I’ve been talking from a ‘‘Conventional Truth’’ perspective. I’ll keep doing this, and if there will come a time in which I’ll need to explain a point from an ‘‘Ultimate Truth’’ perspective, I’ll state it.

In any case, the Buddha teachings, from my personal humble experience and the experience of countless Masters, seem to be effectively pointing to the Truth. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if they are lies or not, because their purpose was only one: to point to the Truth, and the Buddha kindly reminded his followers of this in countless occasions.

So, keeping these points in mind, I’ll now go on:

Allow me a brief, yet the only meaningful explanation, of karma. Karma is the connection between cause and effect. Cause and effect exist in codependence, as in they can’t exist separately. Effect will always follow cause, and cause will always be followed by effect.

I understand some times when people talk about Dharma, they talk about desire as intrinsically negative, something to be shunned.
The desire the Buddha was talking about was a specific type of mental phenomena, which will inevitably lead to experience pain.
I guess it’s for you to find out which desires will lead to pain, the Buddha gave some tips to see and judge for ourselves, but again, everybody must confirm for themselves.

There are countless desires that don’t have a direct result of pain, and the Buddha and Masters confirmed this.

In any case, sense enjoyment and desire and not suffering. They can lead to suffering, but that’s up to us to see if that’s the case.

Karma is an Obscure Phenomena, so it’s hard to discern whether a certain action will result in a certain outcome, but sometimes we can make the right guess, especially if we pay close attention.

Here comes the hard part for me (the experience of emptiness is, in fact, a facet of the Ultimate Truth, so explaining it it’s like trying to grasp water). I’ll try my best to elucidate it, but that will be on the next post ^^

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Tibetan Buddhism, commonly known as Vajrayana. It’s also tantric buddhism. Deity yoga is a big practice of it.

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