What kind of debt are we talking about?
You know what’s more valuable than money or gold? Information and influence.
So let’s say I evoke DemonXY, ask him to help me be a better magician.
They agree, help me develop into a wiser and more resilient person, which will make me a better magican.
I then can not only be a good example of their power, but I can also gather information (of any kind) which might be useful for them. (Wake up, they’re not omniscient.)
On top of that, their influence gets stronger.
Also, another thought: If a healing demon teaches me to heal, and I heal one person everyday, saving him alot of time, will he be in my debt after let’s say, two years?
My answer was in the context of the question as it relates strictly to abrahamic faith, since I understood the question to be asked from the framework of that faith.
I see Lucifer as a Pagan god (as well as a higher esoteric ”principle“, for lack of a better word), not a fallen angel. Since I don’t subscribe to the garbled, twisted doctrine of the Bible, I cannot see the Y… (who I believe is actually a demon) as anything other than the biggest liar and enslaver of them all, and for this reason cannot find any useful explanation within the framework of something I consider to be an insidious maze of lies. But I don’t want to derail this topic, I just replied because you replied to me.
The train of logic does require one to invest not only in the truth of biblical claims, but also in the truth of allegory that is said to be derived from those claims, which is indeed a very hard pill to swallow and not one I’m interested in defending in the slightest.
Is it a derailment though? It could well be germane to the topic of what kind of debt a person would be signing up for, and why this debt might be punitive, why the terms of a deal may be obfuscated, and indeed why entities that hate humans would be willing to enable humans to try to transcend their allotted place in creation, if indeed one subscribes to that theology.
So my take on this is deprived from Franz Bardons work and the Kyballion. If you work with a force for a prolonged amount of time your vibration becomes similar to this force-> thats your debt you are getting drawn in their sphere of influence. Is this a bad thing probably not, entities are pure power manifest learn from them while you are in their sphere. Existence is about balance so if you work with both angelic and demonic forces you would be fine after your thesis or the ops thesis. What I can tell you is that Lucifer is on a higher vibrational level than some angels.
So the art of deception and circle thing: what are you? Are you an omnipotent being or a scared little scumbag? What I mean is how much do you value yourself? Demons might get offended if you think you are a little worm but want to command them, the same thing goes for believing they are evil. Why should somebody be nice to you if you call him asshole and make him responsible for all evil that exists? Likewise how can you be sure that angels aren’t deceiving you or gnomes? gnomes are well known to deceive and test the operator before they provide.
He gets attacked because he has a negative attitude towards them. Likewise the author states never summon something that you aren’t able to banish, does he really believe in magick or is he still stuck in a menmade hierarchical system?
Lastly they don’t have a problem helping us but they work in different ways. While angel magic can feel smoother demon magic is raw power. It is pure chaotic energy and therefore immensely powerful, thats why you usually work with angels and demons in conjunction to bring order in the raw amounts of power. His first point is trash, too. You can summon Archangel Michael to kill someone and he will gladly do so without asking twice. For me it sounds like that this individual is still living in a zoratistic belief system which is clearly reflected in his opinions.
For some, they are already in debt so working with demons get them out of debt as it makes their life better. =o)
Sometimes you feel life can’t get any worse. So it don’t matter if one try to ask service from demons. IT can only go up if life is already rock bottom. =o)
And if it’s true you pay your debt after death, than that presuppose there is life after death. Since there is life punishment after death , then there is no death. lol
I started reading through that article like, Well, SOMEONE is deep in the throes of Abrahamic cultural ideas, it seems.
Then I saw it was from Reddit. Because of course it was. XD
In all seriousness, though, we are all in debt.
We are in debt to a thousand thousand Loves, through which our Ancestors brought us here.
To their Hatreds, which drove them to enact change. To their Bones, on which we stand.
To their Breath, which is now ours. We are born naked and holding nothing, and everything we receive is a gift which we cannot hope to repay.
And certainly, not all of our ancestors are, nor have ever been, describable as Human. That doesn’t make them any less ours. Doesn’t make them any more malignant, nor any less alien. Fearmongering will never result in restoring and keeping right relations with things. It will only close the kinds of doors which would allow one to stop doing magick, and start being magick.
That’s how I feel about it too…
I was a Christian for a long time and nothing ever seemed to help me when I prayed.
But Lucfier always helped me.
He’s basically an angel of light and nutreality
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My own two cents is that if the “demons” you’re meeting are attacking you on sight, clearly they aren’t the Goetic Spirits, they have threatening appearances and can be so overwhelming in presence that it may cause harm. But I’ve never experienced any that outright attacked me or others without:
Someone sent them or asked them to harm you
You did something fucked up to them that not even these immortal beings, who literally want to help us ascend, could ignore
It’s for you to grow and learn a lesson from
You couldn’t stand your ground against them and they felt it was easy to take advantage of you for the fuck of it
The debt half, yes, all of us are in debt regardless of what we practice. All entities or divine beings we go to for enlightenment or guidance enjoy having something in return. It’s the same thing as a charity or donation foundation, they do what they can for others for free but having that good million dollar donation and funding is always nice to keep them going so they can keep doing what they do.
So yes, I AM in debt, but I chose this path and I chose these responsibilities. They’re giving far more to me then I am to them, so donating or gifting them things doesn’t hurt in the less and they deserve it. They don’t HAVE to help me or anyone yet, they do.
Another occultist recommended to me a book by Franz Bardon. This author talks about working with spirits in his third book and discourages the reader to work with demons. I later found out that he was a Christian.
From what I understood, the practitioner can be tricked into signing a pact when working with demons or other “negative” spirits (such as the dead) OR he can stay too much in contact with some energies and transform their soul, wich leads to them going to a particular sphere after death since it’s the one who matches their vibration.
The part about demons is a little dogmatic ngl. If you read the 3rd book about evocation by Franz Bardon you will know what I’m talking about
It is the second book my friend Franz Bardon only warned the beginner to work with negative forces and there is a reason for that. Franz Bardons system builds your magical being slowly whereas demon magic is chaotic and destructive but really powerful. You also have to keep in mind that he worked with quintscher who worked with demons the whole time. I wonder if you read the work in German (the original language or not). Keeping that in mind it is assumable that he advised against working with demons in order to not scare away the aspiring adept. His way is about the middle ground so I don’t see this opinion being actually his.
Franz Bardon only warned the beginner to work with negative forces and there is a reason for that. Franz Bardons system builds your magical being slowly whereas demon magic is chaotic and destructive but really powerful. You also have to keep in mind that he worked with quintscher who worked with demons the whole time. I wonder if you read the work in German (the original language or not). Keeping that in mind it is assumable that he advised against working with demons in order to not scare away the aspiring adept. His way is about the middle ground so I don’t see this opinion being actually his.