Working with demons puts you in debt?

I stumbled upon an interesting post about demons today. It was pure coincidence, I was looking for a grimoire and this showed up at the bottom of the page.

Basically, in that post (dedicated to beginners) the OP talks about the ‘dangers’ of working with demons. See the link at the end of the post if you want to read it all.
Here is what I extracted:

So, why don’t I work with demons?

  • I don’t believe anything’s for free. I once asked the spirit who taught me most of what I know about ritual magick about summoning demons. She said it was something I never wanted to do. I asked why. She said there are two general approaches to summoning demons, one in which you negotiate with the demon for services and the other which appears to give you control over the demon. She said both indebt you to that demon, and you have to pay the piper after you’ve died. I’ve never found anything she said about ritual magick to be wrong, so I don’t presume this is wrong. Because among other things…
  • Demons have had aeons to perfect the art of deception. I have had coworkers I profoundly disliked who believed I liked them just fine. We never had any problems working togther to projects. Why? Because when there is self-interest involved, I have the ability to engage in deceptive behavior, and playing nice with my coworkers makes me a more valuable member of the department, getting me bigger raises. One of the pieces of “evidence” that people who work with demons often cite to “prove” its safety is to discuss how unthreatening entities like King Paimon are. Well yeah. If I can figure out how to fool you into thinking I like you with just a few decades of work experience under my belt, how much moreso an immortal entity that’s been doing this for thousands of years? The most skillful human minipulators in the world are babies compared to immortal entities that have had thousands of years to perfect their art. But why would demons need to be deceptive, you ask?
  • Demons really, really don’t like us.
  1. They have no problems hurting us. If I summoned a human spirit and told it I wanted it to go make your life absolutely miserable because you said something mean about me, virtually any human spirit would refuse on ethical grounds–nobody deserves to go through absolute misery because they said something mean. Demons, on the other hand, are generally happy to inflict human misery whenever asked.
  2. They DO have problems helping us. It’s not universal (see “deception” above) but demons are known to occasionally fulfill the letter of any bargain they strike while twisting the intent around when they are summoned to help rather than harm humans, causing the people who summon them significant regret.
  3. There’s a reason you need a circle of protection and a triangle of conjuration (or similar precautions) when evoking demons. You don’t need these things for any other spiritual entity you might evoke. Just demons. Just sayin’.
  4. Whenever I encounter demons on other planes of existance, they attack without provocation. Because I used to seek out such encounters, I’ve probably been in this scenario a hundred times. Beginning with the very first encounter, violence has always ensued the moment they saw me, no exceptions. Other people who astral travel and visit other planes of existence report the same. So do human spirits of the dead. Demons are at war with us.
  • There’s nothing you can accomplish by summoning a demon that you can’t accomplish with other techniques of magick. I’ve asked multiple experienced occultists (those with years of experience, who have significant experience with Goetic workings as part of their larger magickal studies) what they can do with a demon that they couldn’t do without one. They’ve never come up with anything. One common rule of safety when working with demons is to never summon something you aren’t strong enough to banish. If you’re strong enough to banish it, your magick is stronger, and anything that demon can do, you could also do–without the risks and costs outlined above.

TL;DR: I don’t want to risk putting myself in the hands of beings with a demonstrable history of malice towards us simply because I’m too lazy to cast some other spell to get what I want.

END OF EXTRACT

Obviously this stirred some thoughts in my head and the first thing that came to my mind was:
How does OP know if the god he is working with isn’t manipulating him? The gods are as old and maybe even older than demons so they should have perfected their ability to decieve as well, right?

If you read some of the comments, the OP states that you may give the demon some offerings but that might be only 70% and you remain in debt with 30% (for example).

Please share your thoughts.
And for those who are interested in the whole post and some details about the original poster, here is the link:

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I know that I am in debt (which will be paid when the time has come). But I surely took out a huge credit in return shrugs

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“Working with demons puts you in debt?”

Well, they’re gonna have to get behind JPMorgan, who already owns my soul.

Shiiitttt that’s a good interest rate, imo.


On a serious note:

In my opinion, there’s no way to know. I share the same opinion on deception ability. I hold all entities in the same regard. No one does anything free.

I think much like we humans, there are many variables that drive certain behaviors. I don’t subscribe to the belief that anything can be evil just to be evil, there’s something that motivates one to act a certain way (whether it be morals, culture, personal goals, etc.).

It leads here for me:

Lots of members of the forum have emphasized this point time and time again because it’s definitely true. Whereas with those on our own plane of existence we can use queues with all five senses to drive conclusions about a person/thing’s behavior, I think you take a little bit of a chance when evoking/invoking an entity. It’s important to know where your limits are. There have been quite a few examples on this forum that provide scenarios where this could go wrong.

I’ll add my own opinion to it though… I think it comes to how much power you give something over your life, and this applies to things that are not of the spiritual variety as well. It’s “a battle of the wills” as someone told me not too long ago. Tools, entities, and whatnot may be an extension of the will of the practitioner, and entities using their will to further the goals of the practitioner is just meant as a boost.

Like shark tank but with extra steps.

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I am honestly getting hidden religious vibes from you. Well dude let me tell you. if you don’t like to work with demons please don’t do it. but, don’t assume and stereotype them if you haven’t really tried urself.

Nothing is free in life. for ex: lets say to muslims (allah) wants them to worship him 5 times a day to get the so called “heaven” isn’t this a way of payment. its exactly the same way. we are all the same in this matter, it always go back to the question " whats in it for me"

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I’m not trying to sound religious (sorry if it came out that way lol)

I guess I never really thought about being in debt, I thought you just do your part of the deal (give the offerings) and you’re done.

I did work with demons and they helped me when I asked for it, so no hate from me towards them

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Because He is NOT a “demon”. But that’s another story (and I’m really not looking to debate this, believe what you want). And btw, He can be extremely threatening to some. Imo, this whole essay shows that this person does have an accurate idea about certain entities, but lumping a spirit like King Paimon into the same category as these malicious entities (and there are those who really, really don’t like humans, that is true) shows that this person has not had access to the “higher ups”, so to speak. There are spirits, the aforementioned included, who have an interest in humanity’s ascent, not their destruction. It’s impossible to say who is right or wrong here, but I’ll just put this out there, knowing full well that it will be right up some people’s noses (but we were asked to give our thoughs, so…):

There are people who never got to communicate with anything other than lying, malevolent demons (or whatever they are) and project their own bad experiences (or those of their trusted friends) onto everyone else’s experiences. That’s, how shall I say this politely? That’s pretty stupid. I’m not gonna be polite here. However, as I said, she does have some valid points, but these points do NOT apply to all spirits who have been labeled as “demons”. Also, not to sound too spiteful, but this here is another testament of reddit’s questionable quality when it comes to anything occult. The vast majority of “occultists” on reddit will express some form of fear-based assumptions that reek of Abrahamic indoctrination. However, I’ll repeat this again: there ARE dangers, it’s just not as black and white as this person seems to think.

EDIT to add: There is a price, if you want to call it that. But it has nothing to do with being enslaved to a spirit because you have evoked them or worked with them during a lifetime - you could be connected to this spirit very closely and even intimately for many, many lifetimes, which does not make you their “slave”. Not saying spiritual slavery doesn’t exist. It does. But again, the person is lumping things together that aren’t as simple. There are nuances which she does not seem to grasp.

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I actually never had the impression that putting yourself into the debt of some external help (spirits, demons, whatever we want to name it) is something bad or negative.
Being able to be put into debt means for me that the “bank” sees you fit enough to return the debt one day.
If a being sees me fit enough to repay a debt that can’t be bought away via offerings it means that “I” have something to give, something valuable, a potential, a worth. And personally that makes me somewhat proud and I can’t wait to return the debt.

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This is really not different than getting a credit from bank, if you think about it man.I think its a solid, detailed post and you are curious, kudos for that.

Our own kind doesnt help us just because.

@A_Pariah Stop stealing my lines now come on :laughing:

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Yes that’s what I was thinking when I was reading the post. The OP seems to have some problems with certain demons and then puts every one in the same category, saying that all of them are malevolent wich is not true.

Yes, I agree, reddit is not a very good source of information and I almost never use it but this post caught my attention. That’s why I asked for other people’s opinions around here.

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I make things clear, I wanna pay my debts up front if possible. Owe nothing to anyone, not even yourself, if you can help it. A lot of the time some demons (but usually they only do this if it’s what they’re specialized in) won’t ask me for payment, and I ask each time what the person wants. The most “selfish” response I’ve gotten? Blood. That just wins by default by the way.

The question is: what will I have to do to repay that debt? Kill someone? Do something degrading? Do something against my morals? Do something… that’s pretty cool actually?

I might be paranoic and I apologise :sweat_smile:

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I’d also like to add one thing as food for thought:

If, for instance, Lucifer is evil, deceptive and wants nothing more than to hurt people because He hates humans, then how come He constantly seems to be pounding into so many people’s heads how important it is to assert yourself, to take control over your life, to stop being addicted to external influences that distract you from your own true potential, to develop and refine your own personal power, to not worship Him or other spirits, to become an individual who is capable of forging their own path in life, etc. etc. etc.? I’d like to hear an armchair expert on reddit give a reply I can take seriously…

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Yes that’s my view as well.
The thing in the post is: the demon might ask for less than you should give him. I will repeat the example from my post cuz I’m lazy lol:
He might ask for only 70% without telling the practitioner about the rest

Its good and legit to ask yourself this question BEFORE you -for example- turn over to long term pacts and such. Nothing paranoid, thats what contracts are for.

That should be worked out before every participant of the agreement…well, agrees.
I know what I will have to “repay” and I agreed to it before anything fell into place.
I’d like to add that not EVERYTHING is a faustian pact (as I said, I put out a huge credit). A lot of entities in my experience are totally confident with mundane tasks, too.

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Good point!

Then in my view it isn’t apart of the deal, deals are be clear and finite by default. Their motives are beyond my understanding, but if they ask for nothing that’s what they’re gonna get

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I honestly don’t think so. Some spirits just like us and so they help us. Caim helped me with the protection of a baby bird for free. Hanuman and Jesus helped me clear soul contracts for free and Fenrir decided to become one of my protectors alongside Freya for free.

I think Darkest Knight said that spirits love excersing their power. I couldn’t agree more.

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If it isn’t defined, this isn’t really the fault of the “demon”, is it? I’ve had them come back and tell me that I’ve offered too much in the negotiating process. Doesn’t seem like the action of a predator or swindler to me.

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If I understand the theology correctly the hate is said to come from jealousy, over humankind being created as above the angels. It’s a hate against YWHW for not only refusing to recognize Lucifer as the most splendid creation, but that Lucifer and all other angels would have to be subservient to humankind. That Humankind was made directly in the image of YWHW.

Therefore, any level of deceit or treachery that could be brought to bear to cause suffering to humankind either here or in the afterlife, would be simply to spite YWHW and his most favored creation. It would be the same motivation for all the other angels who Lucifer convinced to follow in his footsteps and gain a power and glory greater than that of YHWH or his favored humans.

What does remain unclear to me though, is the supposed origins of this story. Where in the Bible is Lucifer? The “Morning Star” mentioned is a mortal king, not a fallen angel. Could it be taken as an allegory for a war in heaven? Possibly. But I’m not certain why it should be read as such. Is there a reason?

Actually humans exist in the etheric plane as well, not just on earth, human kind is older than most people think. Many gods and goddesses create humans not just him.
Also Yahweh really doesn’t give many fucks about human kind, he cares about some, but not all of human kind. It’s really hard to spite someone when they dont care.

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