I also went with B because I think A would be his own worst enemy. Why? Years of feeling less-than, and not being willing to learn even minimal game or work to become more attractive, will hold him back. The attitude that chooses not to use every advantage and improve himself is seldom attractive to others.
If he was doing like 10% of those though, he would IMO be even odds for getting there first.
Men who work on themselves to the degree they are chiseled carry more than just looks.
They have discipline
Have mastered Time (which is necessary to become really fit)
Mental and Physical Stamina
And last but not least Confidence
These as well as his looks are what makes him attractive.
Those who worry about mastering the Spirit (magic) but not the Body or Mind will always be at a disadvantage, to those who master the other two.
Ideally you want to master all three so that you are in balance.
The one with magic can get the girl but the one whose mastered Body and Mind will keep the girl.
Therefore I say go fourth and master thy selves, become strong in Body, Mind & Spirit, attractiveness will follow, then watch as Men and Women fall before you to worship you.
God damn I love that…
Very thought provoking. I like the way you think
Read my edited post.
I agree with most of that…as it doesn’t really contradict my point of view. Never said you can’t improve yourself in other areas to assist your magickal workings. I simply don’t believe that it’s a prerequisite for Magick to bring about what you asked for…and the reason I don’t believe it is because Magick has told me not to believe it by setting “judicial presidences.”
Case law one, Verdo vs. Single mom Here, I essentially acquired $4000 USD from basically out of no where. It came from a woman I never even met in person, who had other mouths to feed. My question for you is…what did I do to earn that? Did I cut someone’s lawn? Did I sell a product? Did I help someone solve a problem? I can tell you straight up that I did nothing to deserve that cash. Didn’t even have a job at the time. I asked for a free lunch, and I got it.
Case law two, Giliman09 vs school crush. A girl whom had already deemed the magician as sexually undesirable…flipped on a dime, from having zero interest, to banging him a week or two later. Now my question for you is this…what did he do to deserve that? Did he grow six pack abs and a chiseled chest in a matter of days? Did he magickally pick up PUA game so strong that in a few days, without even talking to her, she picked up on how suddenly suave he was across the ether that she now felt compelled to start harassing her friends about the guy at 2am in the morning? All unlikely, I would say. He asked for a free lunch, and he got one
Case law three, Oceania vs Best friend. So here’s a story where a woman not only friendzones the magician…she explicitly stated that he wasn’t her type. After doing a spell, two months later the girl is his. Now my question for you is this…what did he do to deserve that woman? Did he somehow acquire such an amazing personality, that in two months she magically saw something in him that she somehow didn’t see after 5 whole years of being his friend? Is there any indication that he got shredded in a two month timeframe and that sealed the deal for him? Last I checked, you get 1, maybe 2 pounds of muscle per month if you’re lucky and incredibly disciplined…but certainly nothing that would appear under a shirt. Now he did regret doing the spell, but he’s the one who called it quits, not her. He held on to her for 3 years, and probably could’ve kept her for many more if he wanted to. Again, I see a case of someone asking for a free lunch, then getting it.
These are just a few examples of what I’m talking about (and I’ve encountered many more) in order to make my point. Magick sets the presidence, and I readjust the limitations I place upon Magick accordingly. So my response to your suggestions of assisting Magick in the mundane world is, “Recommended, but unnecessary.” As I do or don’t do for baneful Magick, so too then do I do and not do for everything else
IMO
You didn’t.
Nothing.
Nothing at all. 
Because you used the force of magic to make someone give you money or to make someone attracted to you, you are in a sense mind controlling them through sorcery.
To me this is a Quantity over Quality use of magic, with this in mind the operator surely gets what he wants and there is nothing wrong with that.
But there is always an exchange with things like this, had he instead used magic to embolden his influence or buffered his business he would incur an income in the long run rather than a one-off check.
Had the operator used magic to strengthen his discipline and to master his desires he would incur physical strength and mental fortitude resulting in a fit body, mind & spirit, and thus Women would throw them selves at him.
Asking for the free meal may sound good at first but in the long run you give up more valuable rewards in its place.
To me the rewards are more valuable and longer lasting than the quick fix, and I think most demons would agree that over coming obstacles and emboldening character is more valuable than a free lunch.
Substituting something eternal for something temporal, does not beget the same rewards and self development, which is what ascension is all about.
To me climbing the mountain holds more glory than walking the plains. You reap more and the rewards are long lasting and come naturally than having to to do a spell for this or that.
Magic is best used in conjunction with real world action, and there is more benefits and they endure longer.
It all comes down to thinking short term or long term, Quality or Quantity.
And do your sentiments here translate to baneful quests as well? You talk about climbing mountains of glory and personal development. Alright, let’s take a climb:
Say one of my long term goals, outside of building my business empire and attracting women, I had a long term goal of systematically killing off all 50 members of a child pedophile ring that has harmed members of my family. I come to you saying that I plan on doing a series of baneful spells and evocations to start killing these abusers. Would your response to me be, “Don’t go for the quick fix. If you want to kill them…assist the Magick first by developing your body and fighting skills first so that you may retain the lasting rewards of a fit body and self defense skills that’ll last a lifetime…while simultaneously being more able to lend the Magick a hand by knifing some of them in the heart with your bare hands. Asking for the free meal may sound good at first but in the long run you give up more valuable rewards in its place, like being able to see the life of these abusers leave their body, while simultaneously developing your own core body strength, so that you may be able to parlay these rewards into other areas of your life later on, like becoming a fitness trainer, a marine, etc”
You see, as I said before… nothing that you’re saying is invalid, but it doesn’t really invalidate what I’m saying either. To you, the rewards may be more valuable than the quick fix, but that doesn’t make the quick fix unable to bring about the desired results that people are looking for. All this talk about going the long road is fine, but I find it fascinating how quickly it comes up when discussing matters outside of baneful Magick…but once the conversation goes back to the bane, all of a sudden it’s, “but the laws! but the laws!”
In an upside down world…if it were illegal to generate capital, but not illegal to receive it (similar to how in many countries prostitution is illegal, but solicitation for sexual services isn’t) conversations concerning wealth Magick would be far less proactive, and much more passive along the lines of baneful Magick…as the extent of what Magick can and cannot accomplish on its own in the minds of people is often largely influenced by carnal laws and norms, not astral ones…and that’s the main point I’m trying to make. I could have the most ambitious long term baneful quest for revenge you’ve ever seen, but you would never advise me to take the harder route of bulking up so that I can beat some of them to a pulp myself
My money is on…the girl. 
She is smarter than Boy A and Boy B. She uses her “feminine wiles” to seduce Boy B, because let’s face it, every Satanic Witch should have a fuck toy, and she is aware of Boy A’s attempt at magick, so she turns it back upon him, making him her drooling slave, because every Satanic Witch should also have a mindless drone to do the dishes 
Just one question out of curiosity @Verdo . How often do you get your lunch for free when asking for it?
Also just wanted to say your logic is flawless, lol. I think Guy A also
It depends, as I haven’t always asked for one in the past…but so far it typically pans out. I view Magick generally speaking, as an amoral tool similar to that of a knife. It doesn’t really care if I greedily cut a giant piece of cake for myself which I had no hand in baking or buying, nor does it care if I use it to kill an innocent man. It may agree or disagree, who knows…but at the end of the day it carries out my instructions to the letter. My usual worry is not so much about “will this work?” …it’s more about “have I carefully considered what it is that I’m asking for, because if I get this wrong, I’m going to get exactly what I asked for”
Now I said generally speaking because of course, when you’re talking about a place as large and diverse as the astral… you’re going to encounter some entities, like angels, that won’t do certain things for you. But people seem to forget that this field of magick is a pretty large one. If one route says no, there’s always like 4 or 5 entities/spellcasting methods on the side that’ll say yes. So yeah, that’s my take on it
The Battle of the Sarumens
I’m at the edge of my seat here.
Guy B wins via flawless victory. I don’t know if we should count haymaker miracles as winning.
I voted Guy A but if it’s a short battle, guy B for sure since things takes time to manifest.
But not only time, there’s other factors in the game.
So that depends on the magician. If we’re talking about a good one, with a great control over himself, them it’s the A who wins the war.
In any other cases, B for sure.
B wins, but if a is good its a few opportunities to proof hes better whit magic i got 50,/50 but b have more change
But seriously, I don’t think the two situations are comparable. The context for your thought experiment are drastically different, being a guy who wants to get laid rather than someone from your family was a victim of a gang.
Regardless of how you use magic and for what ever the reason you still gain more when you do it in conjunction with real world action.
My point wasn’t to say “Do it the hard way for the sake of it” but “Do it the smart way for the sake of your self”
Especially given the context of your initial thought experiment.
Not that it wouldn’t be easier to use a gun in combat rather than a sword and the gun would be more powerful, but I’m not saying drop the gun and pick up a sword.
I’m saying learn how to use the gun and the sword, for your own development.
^ This guy BDSMs
Flip the script and you’ve got part of the dream lifestyle
So I wanted to take some time to figure out how I would respond to this, as I don’t think you fully understand what my point is, even though I understand what your point is, but I’ll give it one more go
This line that I quoted from you here…I’ve already agreed with ya a couple times already that doing things this way is legit, if that’s what a particular person wants. The issue I think you’re having is actually understanding that I don’t view things with the same lense that you do. For me, one of my goals in Magick are to acquire results i desire with minimal mundane input from myself (ie. To maximize time efficiency). I don’t really care about, “going the smart way for the sake of the self” That is a concept that is very subjective…and what’s “smart” for your self isn’t necessarily what is going to be smart for my self. This isn’t really something that you or I can define or dictate to anyone. Each individual has to decide and define what’s “smart” for themselves on their own. The path that is smarter for one person or another depends entirely on what their objectives are. For example, if two people were looking for a new home…for some people, based on their finances and family situation, it would be smarter to rent. For others, it will be smarter to buy. But I as a house owner can’t dictate to everyone that my way is the smart way for everyone, because empirically, that isn’t true, even though it may be the smart way for me personally.
Now what I do care about however, is what works, and what doesn’t… within the context of getting results within magick. I’ve already validated your way of doing things as a viable path that works for getting results, but you haven’t invalidated my way of doing things as a viable path that works for getting results as well. My path of treating all areas of magick equally to how I perform baneful Magick for the purposes of getting results isn’t really debunked by you saying “go this route because it’s smarter for your self.” Now if you said, “Go this route because your route doesn’t work” …then we’d have a real debate on our hands. That’s the rub really.
Hopefully, that helps you understand where I’m coming from.
Yeah sure fair enough.
But see things more objectively, your thought experiment had a clearly defined context and within that objective context I explained why guy B would win in the long run.
Then it got on a tangent with subjectivity being brought into it. I was never out to argue how one subjectively uses magic, but objectively why guy B makes out better.
Your thought experiment was specific and not vague, had your experiment been more generalized I would have answered differently.
I hold that “smart” can be dictated, though the degree’s of application will very from one individual to another, but the method is the same.
I tend to take a more hard line on things like that so. 
But I can appreciate your view, it was nice talking about it. 
I’m going with Verdo on this one simply because I’ve always viewed magick in this same way and have seen it work wonders for me without lifting a finger in the mundane world. If we are living gods, and magick is an all powerful tool at our disposal, then we can evoke an entity to get what we want or cast a spell, or whatever else and get the desired outcome according to our wishes.
