Interesting. I will look into this.
@Lady_Eva @succupedia @vladzz @Paulden @ashtkerr @Rcs4215 @MagickMike @SabahSnoblod@Woodsman81
Just my take on this. Today @Baal was kind enough to deliver some of the questions I had to Michael. The questions essentially called him out on some of the nasty things he did to some of the entities I work with (there was a war. They were exiled, and purged from Hell. Forced into imprisonment for centuries if not millenia) and demanded an answer to them. This was the answer:
At the end of the day that just isnât good enough for me. This reply illustrates exactly why we are at war with them. The entities I work with take what happened as an attack and an insult regardless of what Michael says. Just put into simple English this is essentially him saying that he did what he had to because it was a ânatural cycleâ and âmandatoryâ. Not apologising. Just saying he had to like he knows what is best for everyone. This is exactly the blind servitude and arrogant superiority that pushes me away from Angels. Presumably, given his reply, he would do it all over again if whatever supposedly higher purpose he serves told him to. Sorry, but I canât work with an entity who would attack, kill, and imprison the beings I serve just because of some supposed ânatural cycleâ. Whether he says heâs our enemy or not doesnât change the fact that he has and still will oppose the beings I serve. As long as he refuses to change his ways he will have to remain my enemy. Working with an entity that can say something like this like itâs the most natural thing in the world is simply not acceptable to me. Also, âitâs just order and chaos taking turnsâ who came up with that?!?! He makes it sound like both sides agreed to it. They did not. You canât forcefully excise someone from the world, and claim itâs just taking turns. The problem with his version of events is that itâs him blindly enforcing a form of order that only one side (the Angels) agreed to. The beings I work with arenât going to accept that.
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Hmmn, remind you of yourself at times eh? 
Gulags of peace and so on. 
Just teasing, but if we ALSO take the stance spirits are within, the ones we dislike may be parts of ourselves we have not yet reconciled.
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Someone else did the evocation though, so I am not sure how that would be possible. Also, I view them mostly as external beings. I am not very sure thereâs much in my UPG to suggest otherwise, though I may be wrong. I am still new to this after all.
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The evocation and the answers were intended for you though, seriously check out Lon Milo DuQuetteâs book âLow Magick: Itâs All In Your Head ⌠You Just Have No Idea How Big Your Head Isâ because at the end he describes exorcising a spirit thatâs causing chaos in a school, but itâs also linked to a guy working there and himself as well, like the meshed Venn diagrams I described in a slightly different context here:
That book is worth its weight in gold on this topic IMO.
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I will try to pick up a copy when I get the chance. Thank you.
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@Lady_Eva Any comments as to the main claim of my post? Arguments For or Against? Further comments? Are our world-views so drastically different (sometimes that seems to be the case) that none of the things I have said have any meaning to you?
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For some reason the old tale of the frog and the scorpion came to mind when i read this. The scorpion will do what is in their nature. Entities will do what is in their nature.
The bit about chaos and order taking turns sounds like the ebb and flow of energy that leads to evolution and progress, you need both to go forward.
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@Dinmiatus The point is that as someone committed to the eventual total victory of the black and unholy I cannot accept working with a being which for any reason will oppose or seek to push out the infernal. âNatural cycleâ or otherwise. I am bound in soul and by blood to that cause. If the Angelâs nature is to promote this constant cycle, then they are my enemies. The Spirits have made it clear that they have no intention of being pushed out of this world again. They intend to stay this time, and stay forever. My duty as their Disciple is to ensure that they do.
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Here is my take on it. When you worship an entity you become biased to that energy. So much so sometimes that you become unable to see any aspect of other entities in any other way than the lens of your worship allows. There is some part of your analytical process which is still extremely polarized.
Okay, first of all the idea that spiritual entities âwarâ with each other in any kind of human capacity does not work for me. Here is why: they are timeless, right? If they are timeless that would imply this war has always been occurring and always will because there is no linear start or finish to such a conflict. This is a metaphor for polar opposite energies and I think you are taking it out of context. Spirits love to convey concepts in the form of metaphor. It is one of their favorite ways to teach.
Again I feel you are laying a human template over this, so let me add mine. When war is in session very few of the people actually fighting are taking this fight personally. If most looked at the opposing side as their hated enemy most cases of PTSD would not exist because there would be no guilt in the equation to trigger it, no ownership. In many cases where there is active hatred in the soldier the individual can become a kind of âproto-psychopathâ temporarily as a coping mechanism, or the person was already out of his mind to begin with. Even in modern times you will find that forces like ISIS are comprised largely of mercenaries, with a select few psychopaths calling the shots. Also, just because the entities are insulted does not mean the onus is on Michael and it also does not mean you have to be insulted as well. It goes back to what I said above; you worship them so you are kind of committing yourself to their version of events instead of making your own decision based on info from all sources.
Who are you under the impression they serve? You might have a chuckle at some of my theories on this. I will reserve them for another discussion, mostly because they involve half baked musings and unverifiable gnostic experiences. Letâs just say it is not YHWH. Now, there are some that I call pseudo-angelics, but they are similar to the overall Catholic egregore in nature and origin and I do not consider them âtrueâ.
I am just saying that I disagree with the view of opposition in conflict. To me it is more of a case of opposition in harmony; opposite aspects which are part of a greater whole that actually compliment more than compete. Maybe this is because of my own background, though, so this is only my opinion; nothing more. But, as long as you find excessive value in one energetic current you may find yourself unable to find any value in another opposing one.
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I agree. My views on that have been posted elsewhere.[quote=âWoodsman81, post:51, topic:18073â]
Here is why: they are timeless, right? If they are timeless that would imply this war has always been occurring and always will because there is no linear start or finish to such a conflict.
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I am not sure they are quite timeless the way you say it. They donât quite exist in linear time like we do, but thereâs a definite sense of causality. Events still cause each other even though time is not linear. A jumbled web of interlinked causation across four dimensions. They simply have another dimension on which their conflict can play out. Also, the war ON EARTH seems to be playing out more or less in linear time. With exceptions of course. Time is malleable even here.
In a way Is suppose. I still think Iâve made a rational decision though. These entities have given me a lot of power. That is why I serve. That is different from worship.[quote=âWoodsman81, post:51, topic:18073â]
When you worship an entity you become biased to that energy. So much so sometimes that you become unable to see any aspect of other entities in any other way than the lens of your worship allows.
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Thatâs why I had someone else do the evocation. Among other reasons. One of them being that I donât think I am allowed to actually evoke an Angel.
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I donât encounter angels that way, when I encounter them they come across more like the laws of the Kybalion, with added complexity, so I donât find them to be like restrictive cosmic policemen, Raphael for example has both recommended working with Marbas, a demon, and also conversed with Belial in front of me, my up-close-an-personal exp. as the Angel of Lost Things also in way resembled the idea angels are cosmic killjoys or henchmen for one weird desert tribe.
So to me, youâre upset with a persona I have not found them to have, but the attitude you have that there MUST be a war seems to be being reflected back to you - which is consistant with my larger findings, and personal experiences, in general.
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@Lady_Eva I am not anti angel by dogma. Most of the Fallen I work with are essentially Angels, but just on a different side. (Thereâs a reason the evocation has the line âFallen yet still an Angelâ in it). They are to quite a large degree of the light from my experience. Light tinged with darkness really.[quote=âLady_Eva, post:53, topic:18073â]
Raphael for example has both recommended working with Marbas, a demon,
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The entities I work with are more than just demons though. They have a far more violent past when it comes to Angels. I can see a cooperation between demons and angels. Their is a basis even in the lore I follow for that.
This is another matter entirely.[quote=âLady_Eva, post:53, topic:18073â]
the attitude you have that there MUST be a war seems to be being reflected back to you
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I really donât believe there MUST be a war⌠My problem with Michael isnât per say what he did back then, but the fact that he would still do it. I am open to working with entities that fought on another side in the Great War (a term I just made up) if theyâve decided to work together now. I know entities who are far more cooperative now, and I am open to reaching out to them. The entities I work with share that view. I donât want a war, but if the angels want to push out the entities I work with, because of some ânatural cycleâ, which is what Michael seems to be suggesting, I am obliged to oppose him.
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Iâm not saying dogma - heartfelt belief system is not dogma.
Nor am I saying donât follow your path, I simply gave my opinion on why an angel would be different, to you, than to me, or someone else.
I described the concept more fully in the post below:
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@Lady_Eva So if I go to beings thinking they are evil then they will be? Thatâs something I will have to look into. Would that still apply if someone else did the evocation though? Wouldnât that ensure a certain level of objectivity? How would my preconceptions be imprinted onto someone elseâs evocation? Thatâs what really confuses me. I had literally nothing to do with the actual ritual. @Baal Doesnât seem to have the same ideas I do.
Also, what about the Spirits own personality then? Doesnât the Spirit have some inherent characteristics regardless of who is evoking? You can filter perhaps, but they would still be them wouldnât they? Thatâs what I personally believe. At the end of the day they are still them. Their attitude may change, but inherently they would still be the same being wouldnât they?
I suppose itâs like a person then? If you go to them in a rude manner then they will be rude back? If you go over be nice, and bring gifts, then they will be nice too? You would still be you whether I went up to you with a smile or with a gun pointed at you, but you would react vastly differently. Thatâs the explanation that seems to resonate with me the most. It definitely explains some of the very unpleasant experiences some people have reported while working with the same beings I do while maintaining the objective existence of these beings. I personally could never understand all the complaints that some people had about the beings I work with. Something to do with the way they approached these beings perhaps? That would explain a lot.
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Thatâs a lot of questions only your own experiences will answer, without simply generating more of the same.
Disliking the Abrahamic faiths as I do, as I have almost all of my life, I avoided anything that was redolent of demonic/angelic until shortly before joining this forum in 2013, when after finding the website by chance, I joined for 3 reasons:
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I wanted to be able to bridge the Divine Paradox, which btw is in explained the Kybalion and will cover almost every paradox you meet in magick, and I succeeded in that task last summer, praise be to the All for that
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I wanted to be able to work with those angelic/demonic beings on my own terms, and the material then available as newsletters and articles (which was much less than now, where there are hundreds of hours of YouTube videos alone) indicated the way E.A. taught was a good route
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it looked like fun.
If your goal here is to understand things whilst retaining your framework of belief, based I believe on experience not dogma, then you will continue to see proof of what you believe to be true.
I don;t recall if I linked you to this but give it a go, itâs mercifully brief to read and will explain a lot of things, I had no such head-start at your age so I had to try and figure a lot of this out by myself:
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According to the Law Of Attraction, itâs a possibility.
Evil is - within your anticipation - as evil does - of how the spirit act according to your anticipation.
This topic is within spirit psychology, which is both simple and complicated, depending on the basis of communication.
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You did. I got about half way through. Need to finish it soon.
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Itâs interesting how often the topic of a âGreat Warâ pops up on magick forums.
Nearly on every single magick related forum I knew of, had this topic.
Makes me think what is it that makes individuals believe in something like that.
Perhaps, for some, it is as Michael said - a metaphor for technically opposing forces, that are actually complementary at the end (which actually resonates with me the most). Perhaps, for some, it is their own perceptions and thinking that other entities are evil, that make the entities they work with say the others are evil.
Perhaps, for some, it is just looking for something âmoreâ. Perhaps, for some, there is actually some truth to it, and there really is some kind of a âgrudgeâ.
Who knows, but it is interesting.
Though, again, what Michael said resonates the most with me.
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Iâm not sure I would take that literally. Iâm a Chaote so I veiw the world as an illusion of Order being worn as a veil by Chaos. Beings that illustrate Order are beings that represent both opposites of Chaos. In the Daoist/Chinese sense, Yin and Yang separated from a formless mass of energy, and can rearrange themselves back into Chaos. I also have little reason to literally believe in stories such as Michael fighting Satan or Ragnarok literally happening in full detail of the sagas. To me they are stories of the world with spirits as the characters and actions as metaphors. They are from manâs mind, not the world. This is admittedly different from how you may personally perceive the terminology but this is the reason why Iâm comfortable working with angels and demons, creators and destroyers, the sun and moon. Although I personally emphasize the dark aspects, it is darkness that allows light to exist, so why not know a bit about that other side? In my opinion thatâs like trying to understand hate without understanding love also. They are polar opposites but come from the same reaction; desire. Desire to destroy/prevent or preserve/create. Literally the only difference is motive.
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