"My" demons might not be the same as "your" demons (GateKeepers)? Discussion?


#1

I’m really wondering as to why EA and those that follow him get these very specific things from the demons they work with. 9 Gatekeepers, working toward ascent, the 9 having the same goal, ‘dark alchemy,’ DNA manipulation, philanthropy, and so on. I work with the demons through traditional means and I never got anything remotely close to what EA and what you people get. Amaymon, whom I found to be Martian and Saturnian, a Djinn King, and possibly a Persian deity, denied being Lucifer. If anything, Oriens, the King of East, would be a form of Lucifer of some kind. Amaymon never mentioned anything about being one of the Gatekeepers, and he really doesn’t seem like a philanthropist to me. It takes a lot to earn his favor, and it seems to me like he lacks respect for those who are obsessed with wealth and material things. He refers to him as his puppets and playthings as he holds authority over riches among many other things.

I worked with Lucifuge Rofocale for a bit as well. A gentleman, very business oriented and picky. A no-nonsense type. He never mentioned anything about being a GateKeeper or anything that’s BALG-like in nature (philanthropy, radical subjectivism, relativism, ascent, and so on).

My friends worked with some of the other spirits which share the names with the GateKeepers and they reported the same thing. We simply don’t get the same things you people do.

A lot of planetary attributions and character traits that we experience from our spirits are different from what you people report. That, and spiritual properties. For example, Lilith is not just a sexual & emotional being, that’s maybe 5% of the things she represents and does.

What I had found is that demons are not a unified collective working toward the same goal. They all have their own agendas and preferences. They’re not a hive-mind. After all, they are spirits and pagan deities from various different pantheons, so it makes sense. There is rivalry among some of them, and they do fight each other over political power if it’s necessary. Some of them are mercenary-like in nature, some of them are fiercely loyal and noble, and others are just downright disgusting in character.

Now my question is how come we’re getting different things? Are we actually working with different beings that just happen to share the same name? You know, like people share the same names but obviously aren’t the same person.

On a final note, I would like to rule out a few arguments:

“It’s all subjective” - no, because there is consistency among unrelated practitioners and grimoires and objective truth does exist. Saying “objective truth does not exist” is a self-defeating sentence because that claim in itself is a truth claim. ‘The truth is, truth does not exist.’ Logically, it makes no sense.

“it’s all expectation” - no, because I have found that spirits quite freely defy my expectations, they’re not altered by them. Same goes for EA. His whole gatekeeper experience and revelation was contrary to what he expected, unless he lied.

So, what’s the deal here, gang? Different spirits with same names? I don’t believe it’s “different aspects” since a lot of times it’s contradictory information and traits.


#2

Talking about Gatekeepers i got some insight need to share may i pm you if it is okay.


#3

Im a bit curious to this myself. Maybe in the BALG version Satan goes to Disneyland where E.A. gets to play with the illuminati Satanists.


#4

I don’t have much to offer here, discussion wise but it’s interesting.
Bookmarked.


#5

“Nemod is a helpful spirit to work with if you practice evocations. As I’ve mentioned earlier, spirits often lie, and it is helpful to know if they are telling the truth or not. Nemod can teach you several ways to determine the sincerity of spirits and, remarkably, people as well. Before you discuss an important topic with someone, you may want to evoke Nemod to make sure you know if you’re hearing the truth. The methods Nemod teaches for finding the truth may seem simple, but they are effective.”

-Summoning spirits by konstantinos-

You can try to work with this entity.


#6

@Bowling270 Sure, mate, go ahead.

@Meowlix I think that “BALG’s Satan” (The gatekeeper) is not the same spirit as this Satan:

2

They could have the same office, and perhaps similar political power, but I think they’re two characters because their teachings are radically different and often times in opposition to each other. Same goes for any other GateKeeper and their grimoire counterpart.

@Nicolas_Tomas While there are spirits that do not lie, that doesn’t mean that you can’t get false information. The spirit can SEND the correct information, but your mind can pervert the message before it reaches the conscious mind and then receive something else entirely. This is why we need books, sources, and other devices. Not to mention that spirit can’t properly convey messages to you that are incomprehensible to your mind (if you lack context for example). It would be like explaining Quantum Physics to a child.

If you’re interested, I highly recommend this article by Aaron Leitch: https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2018/01/the-problem-with-personal-gnosis/


#7

I even thought about what you said, but I did not really know how to explain it. So I just tried to help the way I could!


#8

Much appreciated. :slight_smile:


#9

Agreed.

My guess is that some spirits are posing as others (maybe the spirits’ familiars) or maybe depending on the person they may adjust their behavior accordingly? I’m not trying to suggest that it is subjective, but it’s kind of like how humans may act differently based on their situation, if that makes sense?


#10

I find this interesting and I’m definitely curious about other people’s opinions.

For a while I found myself doing things the BALG way, so too peak, simply because that’s all I knew. This community has literally been pivotal in my journey as a black magician.

But as I’ve gone deeper, my own relationships with various demons, especially Lucifer, has led me to very different places.

Each of our paths is a progressive unfolding. Every time I think I’ve finally grasped it all, another level is unveiled and a new infusion of knowledge comes crashing down.

I don’t see demons as distinct beings, more as streams of consciousness. As such they have many different aspects. The way Lucifer works with me might be different from how he works with someone else.

But also as you said, sometimes someone is just wrong. Their mind has misinterpreted what the spirit has said.

Personally I’ve been drifting away from the nine gatekeepers model as it simply doesn’t fit for me in the path that has been unfolding so far. It seems a bit random and illogical. I like the basic idea for various reasons but I think it also leaves a lot to be desired.

At the end of the day you can only keep what fits and discard what doesn’t. It’s not my place to question the information someone else purports to receive.


#11

No the illuminutties ‘invited’ him (not very gracefully) to be an honorary high level whatsit and he turned them down. He’s already above that type of hierarchical system.


#12

I’m not really seeing where there’s the huge divergence you describe, far from not being ‘anything remotely close’ - I see some cherry picking about the masks and aspects you work with that are more different than what others have in general, but I think that’s normal.

You are approaching these entities in the subtle level, using your own system as the lens to view them, the differences in the calibration of your instrument as the practitioner will make huge differences in not just what you are able to view and how you view it, but your intention and their response to you.

I worked with Lucifuge Rofocale for a bit as well. A gentleman, very business oriented and picky. A no-nonsense type. He never mentioned anything about being a GateKeeper or anything that’s BALG-like in nature (philanthropy, radical subjectivism, relativism, ascent, and so on).

I concur, and I came to Lucifuge via BALG.
But my interest in talking to him is usually goal-oriented and specific, and nothing to do with that list of values, except ascent, which wasn’t a topic of discussion either.

My friends worked with some of the other spirits which share the names with the GateKeepers and they reported the same thing. We simply don’t get the same things you people do.

This seems to imply that ‘you people’ - who I assume are posters on BALG - are some sort of unified coven that all get and agree on the same thing, and this is not the case.

If you disagree with EA that’s fine, so do some of the posters here. If you have specific questions about certain posters’ gnosis I think you’d do better to just take it up with them individually.

No-one on BALG speaks for all on BALG, and that tends to be taken issue with if someone tries, or they are politely ignored. We are not a hive mind, we are people from all over, and all backgrounds like you. You are not the first to post their gnosis and ask why it’s different, and you won’t be the last.

Most people are rather less cup-full and assumptive about it though. I think you would do well to suspend the judgement for a little while and try to read more in the posts than what you want to hear.

A lot of planetary attributions and character traits that we experience from our spirits are different from what you people report. That, and spiritual properties. For example, Lilith is not just a sexual & emotional being, that’s maybe 5% of the things she represents and does.

Again, everybody is different, so this is another sweeping statement that makes no sense.
Many go by what they’ve read in published books - which differ sometimes - personally I don’t use this idea of lists of correspondences in my work at all.

I think applying ‘planets’ which are bodies that are only relevant to this solar system to a celestial is nonsensical, and about as silly as applying ‘colours’, which are merely very tiny sections of the EM spectrum that can interact physically with the human retina. These are symbolism, that allow limited humans to access bits of their subconscious to get ahold of ideas, and not really a part of the entity itself. That doesn’t mean I go round telling people that find these useful they’re wrong - they find them useful so they’re clearly not. I don’t, so I don’t use them. That’s magik for you - you make your own.

What I had found is that demons are not a unified collective working toward the same goal. They all have their own agendas and preferences. They’re not a hive-mind. After all, they are spirits and pagan deities from various different pantheons, so it makes sense. There is rivalry among some of them, and they do fight each other over political power if it’s necessary. Some of them are mercenary-like in nature, some of them are fiercely loyal and noble, and others are just downright disgusting in character.

I don’t think anyone said they were a “hive mind”? They way I see this, is it’s a bit like mages coming together for group workings - they are individuals with personalities. I think they do know each other personally. There’s some things they sometimes work together on, but it’s specific not general.

However, it’s not my gnosis that they are as petty as humans and that all human activity can be projected onto them. You have to be careful not to over-anthropomorphise entities that are very much not human.

Now my question is how come we’re getting different things? Are we actually working with different beings that just happen to share the same name? You know, like people share the same names but obviously aren’t the same person.

Masks. Which aren’t a black magik obscurity they’re a psychological tool.
Complex beings have different facets of personality and behaviour that they choose to display under different situations. You see the same thing even among humans so I’m not sure why this is confusing.
For example, my professional persona at work is very much not the persona I show to my family and normie friends, is not the persona I show to my local kink community, is not the person I am here.

On a final note, I would like to rule out a few arguments:

You’re actually making arguments in this section, btw, not ruling any out, but I know what you mean :slight_smile:
Unfortunately you seem to be positing counterargument to arguments nobody has made.
If you could link or cite people making these arguments it would help, otherwise you’re just generalising and putting words in people’s mouths.

“It’s all subjective” - no, because there is consistency among unrelated practitioners and grimoires and objective truth does exist.

I don’t think anyone said it’s ALL subjective, did they?
but subjectivity is very much present, as mentioned above, and doesn’t mean we as humans are able or allowed to see it. Hence masks, as viewed through the lens of the human system. And every human is very different. Also they don’t have fixed physical bodies, so when they assume appearances, of which emotion and mental imagery is a part, that’s really up to them as a tool to use, and what they think that tool should look like for the work in hand.

“it’s all expectation” - no, because I have found that spirits quite freely defy my expectations, they’re not altered by them. Same goes for EA. His whole gatekeeper experience and revelation was contrary to what he expected, unless he lied.

Not ALL, again, nobody says that.
Yet expectation influences perception, and importantly also influence intention, does it not? - and these two together completely change what energy the practitioner puts into it, what he gets back and hence what he experiences.

So, what’s the deal here, gang? Different spirits with same names? I don’t believe it’s “different aspects” since a lot of times it’s contradictory information and traits.

The deal, I believe, is you have made a lot of assumption and suppositions about individuals posts and applied them to a whole that does not exist, and instead of wondering why you’re confused, leaped to the conclusion that the whole eclectic group of very different people working from very different viewpoints are all wrong, and can’t possibly be talking to the same entities you are. I think this is naieve, but I only speak for myself.

Don’t forget the advanced people don’t usually do into that much detail, and get even more differences and unique details that become personal to the relationship.

In other words, nobody cares if your personal experience is different, so why do you? Knock yourself out.


Fuck thy Neighbor
#13

The major fault I find with this statement is that for example you think Your Version of Satan is more valid than someone elses. In doing this, its easy to consider anything an impostor spirit. Its kind of like having the judgement system of where if someone doesn’t agree with you they must be a J***** (insert any derogatory name really). Other than that, nothing wrong with Hyperfocusing on your own ideal evocation.


#14

^ I would echo everything in that reply to be honest.

You wrote:

I say:

What I had found is that BALG forum is not a unified collective working toward the same goal. They all have their own agendas and preferences. They’re not a hive-mind. After all, they are magicians and students from various different backgrounds, so it makes sense.

You have no idea what each of the many different and diverse members on here is getting. I doubt whether many people on here consider ourselves E.A.'s “followers” either, I mean that is kind of cringe.

If you have issues with his findings and his pathworking, talking about it to people on here like we’re a cult won’t serve much of a useful purpose for anyone. :man_shrugging:

Another thing to consider is that people will perceive the same human being differently, in different roles - lover, employer, patient, employee, passing acquaintance, random aggressor, kindly helper. Most people have been in all these roles.

Lilith, for example, is professional and political with me, but I do not arrogantly assume that is her “true” self or the only thing she does that matters. Why should nigh-on immortal beings, who can be conscious in multiple locations at once, be any less complex than any ordinary human being?


#15

I think E.A. is more dealing with ‘corporate’ while most other practitioners that aren’t as much into the addition of marketing their stuff likely end up dealing more with the private sides of these beings or the front end set ups if that analogy makes any sense. Also E.A. is notorious for his marketing to say the least so I have no doubt much of what he discovers is translated in a way to get maximum attention and hype in a similar way that you might explain medieval ceremonial magick with more modern terminology to get the same meanings across if it was easier for the majority to understand.

Take DNA manipulation for instance. He might explain it in terms of genetics but he really receives in terms perhaps more akin to lycanthropy and possession and other more classical forms of changing the structures of the astral matrix but those would probably be very niche terms that don’t quite have the ring of the translated versions.

There is also the fact these beings are not whole beings but simply universal forces and qualities that have taken on personifications in response to humanity and other beings working with them and while a large part is an independent entity made from the long collection of thoughts and energies given to them and their origins from the universal source they also tend to reflect in many ways the individual summoning them unless they have an overriding reason to not just go with that flow. Many over time have evolved past their initial stages true but they also still rely on whole beings to supply them with power outside of their domains through offerings and energy sacrifices so they tend to do their own marketing where it is worthwhile.


#16

Yeah, it is a good point that the message they’re giving him would be wasted on most of the rest of us, who don’t have a high-profile public presence like he has. Another reason not to go bobbins about us seeing different sides of them. :slight_smile:


#17

I honestly believe no one, and I mean no one, holds the one and only universal truth, instead we all hold just fragments. My fragment and your fragment are only different pieces of the same puzzle.


#18

From what I understand, the spirits work with each magician based on what is necessary for that particular magician’s Ascension.

EA has stated before that the stuff he has published about his work with the Gatekeepers is only a very small amount of what he has received. There is plenty he has been given that has to do only with his personal spiritual progression, and that is not for public dissemination.

While there are some commonalities in the experiences of different magicians, the spirits tend to express only what is necessary for the individual. For example, I’ve been reading the Belial Compendium, and the experience that EA had with him come across as very different from what is described by Kurtis Jospeh, but Belial gave each of them what was needed, and both of their experiences of him differ from my own.


#19

Demons position different people in different places giving each person different information. Just like a person may talk different to their freind than they would to a manager at a job interview, Demons such as Belial can act differently with different people. Each person may need a different set of directions because their goals are different. Some people I would offer coffee to, some people I would not offer coffee to. I am same person giving completely different answers depending if it is some 1 I like or not. From working with Belial, I get the impression Belial likes coffee, to me coffee is like a liquid version of black flame.


#20

@Prophet That’s possible too. Although, from what I’ve noticed, the emissaries and what not do not impersonate their superior. They’ll say something along the lines of, “X (superior) is busy, so I’ll take care of it.” Impersonation seems to be a form of disrespect to many of them.

@Melektoth I really can’t say I share the same view. I’ll write my take on the whole aspects thing (again) in this same comment so I don’t have to type the same thing over and over again.

@Meowlix With all due respect, why do you find that improbable? People can and are often wrong. Someone could be deluded thinking they work with Satan, when another person could very well be working with the real deal. Why must everyone be right and have a valid path and position? It doesn’t work like that in the physical world, so why must it work in the astral?

@Nemesis I really don’t share the view that spirits are forces and not actual beings, I’m afraid.

@DarkestKnight Ah, it could be possible that he publishes over-sensationalized information which could be far from the truth that he’s keeping for himself. Now here’s the issue that I have with the whole ‘same being just different aspect’ sort of thing.

Suppose someone who is 'truthful like Astaroth likes both of us. A lot. Yet we used completely different methods of evoking as well as completely different sigils (from unrelated traditions, like for example I used a G.V. sigil and you used a Dukante sigil). Then we decide to ask Astaroth the exact same question, and we receive answers that are contradictory. Not just different, but in actual opposition to each other.

It does not make sense to say “it’s just a different mask” because there’s absolutely no reason for “the mask” to be limited to a set of answers. Why should a mask be programmed to give a specific type of answers? Either one of us was deceived by Astaroth, or our minds perverted the message, or we are dealing with two different spirits entirely. Both answers cannot be true as they are in opposition to each other. You could say “well you’re a different person to different people.” True, but if the two people are very similar in some regards (like both are magicians) there’s no reason for me to bullshit one person and tell truthful things to another, unless I dislike/distrust the person I’m bullshitting. But, again, the spirit likes us both, so this can’t be it, right?

Again, why should we humans be able to have the same names without being the same person, but spirits cannot have this luxury? Why can’t many different spirits share the same name, just like many people can share the name “John” or “Mark” or “Larry?”

@Nero666 the answer I gave above ^ can also be applied to to your post. Check it out and let me know what you think.