"My" demons might not be the same as "your" demons (GateKeepers)? Discussion?


#21

You can claim that you’re all so different from each other all you want. Fact of the matter is, many people here share the same paradigm which is:

Intent trumps mechanics, anthropocentrism, relativism (therefore, every spiritual experience is valid and legitimate, there are no wrong answers), tools are just a psychological prop yet spirits are somehow real beings(?), the well known demons are there to help us ascend, our goal is ascent, so on and so forth…

If you think this is a strawman, just go back and review many of the answers here that are given to questions such as “Does it matter if I use this sigil over another; do I have to do this in the right planetary hour; are the circle and triangle important?”

I know Westerners like to prattle on about their identity and individuality. How they’re oh so special. But, really, most of us have more things in common with each other than differences.

I’d like to keep this thread clean from this bizarre identity / individuality discussion which wasn’t even the main topic. All I did was differentiate adherents to my paradigm from adherents to your paradigm. Paradigm here is being used colloquially and in a much broader sense.

Cool?

Alright, I would like to hear your thoughts on what I wrote in the comment above this one about different aspects. Thanks.


#22

Have you ever tried to type a Japanese sentence using an American keyboard and no romanji transliteration programs? You can’t, because we dont have the correct input.

This is why we read books and research/entertain all possibilities. That way all the possibilities are in our mind and our unconcious mind can properly transliterate the message to your concious mind.

Otherwise our brain fills in the blanks like autocorrect and we get incorrect information


#23

No, sorry :smiley: because it lies at the heart of what you are talking about here:

Let’s see the list:

Intent trumps mechanics

This assumes one “group” has entirely the correct mechanics, already in place, whereas another has entirely the wrong mechanics.

I dispute this, I covered it before with this browser analogy:

If you call on spirits under a specific mask, in this case presumably Joy Of Satan, you’ll probably see them show up looking blond, the same as the Imperial Arts author sees demons looking ugly and weird, because he’s a grimoire trad. guy.

I don’t place expectations on them, and they take all kinds of forms for me, including totally non-anthropomorphic.

Same with angels - you go to them assuming they’re these bad guy hustlers, you’re going to limit what you get.

You know how, to get online and view a website, you need a program called a browser?

You can set browsers to make all the text on sites come out a specific way, you can block javascript (which gives a lot of the interactive functionality & other aspects on a web page, and blocking it can totally cripple the way some sites display) - and the belief you take to any magickal interaction seems to be like that.

It seems to affect what kind of manifestation you get, including limiting some of the ways the spirit will act, or what it will say to you.

Note that even with 25+ years experience in magick, I’m still only saying “seems to be” because I wouldn’t presume to know it all.

So, belief isn’t a passive thing, in magick - it can affect what you get delivered to you!

If we look at human history and specifically the history of “demons” i.e., beings named in the grimoires, we find some will reveal themselves (to some of us) to be ancient gods or goddesses (Bael, Buné come to mind) while others appear to have no prior known form that was degraded and stereotyped into demonic (Sitri maybe is an example of this, and Belial).

Furthermore, you can observe the differences this shift in belief makes when evoking by comparing the works of a grimoire-traditionalist such as Imperial Arts, and his experience with Buné, to my own experience where I approached her free of expectations and over time she revealed she was also the spirit behind the goddess Wadjet, and that she is very loving and will assist with making contact with the deceased (like you, I largely believe spirits are discrete personalities, not forces, although with Lucifer/Satan that line may somewhat blur, as with a person’s experiences when dealing with “big-G God” and some angels).

Another example is Imperial Arts’ perception of Belial contrasted with that of Aaron Donaghue, and I covered that in more detail here.

Finally, you can take that from the spirit world right into this topic – you were on this forum for a while, no issues, you decided to tear apart one member’s experience because you did not think highly of her, in a prolonged and intentionally hurtful manner, so, you got banned.

I permitted you to try again, and now, you come on this forum and start telling us we are, in fact, a hive-mind and guess what – people seem to be “uniting” against you.

Even though in this topic alone, some of us replying have been seriously and significantly at odds over serious issues that remain a point of difference. But to you, we seem like a unified group with shared thinking.

You are seeing what you want to see right here, right now, with US – and you tell me that can never happen with a spirit, which probably has a far more complex personality than any human?

Anyway, back to the list:

anthropocentrism,

Pointless trendy –ism, short of spending a long lifetime experiencing being another type of life-form, every living thing appears to experience itself as the centre of its own universe, though most also realise other beings feel the same way.

relativism (therefore, every spiritual experience is valid and legitimate, there are no wrong answers),

Wrong: what matters are RESULTS, no-one on here who posts a failed working gets pats on the head (nor asks for them) just for doing things in some approved manner. Results are all that counts, and all most of us care about, absent any personal choice to love or serve a philosophy, or entity/ies of our choice.

To re-quote myself, enlightenments and big revelations about “the nature of truth/life/reality” (etc) are the monopoly money of magick: feels good in the hand, in the moment, but they do not pourchase any changes in the real world.

Results - new job, better car, more money - are proof that regardless of how and what you are doing, it is working.

And to do the opposite, to automatically discard someone’s spiritual experience as INvalid and ILlegitimate, is how dogma gets started, and dogma can be every bit as wrong as someone’s “delusional” experience – with the dangerous difference that dogma then gets enforced upon others who are tutored and shamed into following it.

So for that reason, on here, we leave the gateway open, because when it comes to damage done, dogma can roll on for centuries, even millennia (just look at the practice of Type 3 female circumcision, that kills women and babies for no real purpose) whereas one person’s mistake will have less of an impact.

On this forum peer-testing, without force or the need to sit in judgement on each post, is key – if someone is significantly out of alignment with the experiences of many others, they will observe this and can investigate why, and whether they wish to do anything about it.

This is significantly better than any similar alternative.

tools are just a psychological prop yet spirits are somehow real beings(?),

(I will ignore the 2nd part since I think we’re on the same page as to spirits being “real,” at least on this side of the Divine Paradox where we talk using ordinary terms.)

One of E.A.'s recent newsletters described most tools as training wheels/props, but stated that some objects have innate power of their own. I don’t have the newsletter handy to link.

This is a view I share, and from what I see, most people go through a stage of wanting all the tools, then none of the tools (when finding they are non-differentiated from the All) and then, finally, entering into the “some tools do something better than my mind can, others are less important.”

This fits perfectly with the following widely-accepted views: 1. Objects and non-human beings can have a real spirit of their own and 2. That spirit sometimes aids us in our magick, for various reasons of its own.

So, again, to class all tools as one interchangeable group is an error of thinking that leads to erroneous conclusions – the nature and functions of an ancient crystal that formed over tens of millions of years will be different to a Tarot deck that’s mass-produced, and rolled out via a network of minimum wage hands, to reach someone browsing in the local new age shop.

Tarot cards can be dispensed with and the images, once “uploaded” into a mind training in divination, used instead, because the image, not the plastic-coated card, is where the power or “real spirit” of the deck resides. That said, some will still find the physical deck most useful, because it leaves more mental runtime free, and some physical decks will also become imbued with a spiritual power of their own.

This is textbook animism, nothing contentious or relativist.

the well known demons are there to help us ascend,

The general view seems to be that something got off track, either before recorded history (known as “Atlantis” etc., though the writings on that don’t sit well with many of us, either) - or, and this fits as well with the former, that things started to go wrong with the genesis of the monotheistic faiths that all share a theme of shunning contact with spirits, and prohibiting divination and the use of magick to change reality.

Many demons (including the “former god with own cult” and the “just kind of appeared along the line in grimoires” guys) are not happy about this, and have their own agenda to work and see things change.

The idea all demons are just Santa Claus with horns, here to see us fulfil selfish desires away from the older forms of social and spirituality morality, is not often found on here, or, not often held for long once someone begins to truly communicate with spirits, understand that magick is REAL, and understand the implications of magickal awakening becoming a global phenomena.

our goal is ascent, so on and so forth…

If you can find 2 people on here who have the exact same definition of what that is, I would be astonished – I thought it was an umbrella term for each individual’s reaching a stage (or, series of stages) whereby their magickal abilities allow them to significantly improve their world to their own liking.

Political differences alone, forged from different life experiences, geographical location, preferred worldview and currently preferred outcome for the wider world rule out that “ascent” being a single vision held by all of us, in the exact same way.


#24

I’m just going to ignore all the blathering about me thinking you’re a hive-mind or whatever. Your bruised pride is of no interest to me. And nowhere have I said that you are uniting against me, but have fun with your projections and bollocks.

As for the rest of the texts, I’ll look into it.

But, I ask you, if you use completely different methods - how do you know you are dealing with a mask of another being and not a completely different being altogether? The astral signature method is extremely flawed.

Lastly, I got what I came for. Feel free to ban me again, I suppose? And, before your overactive imagination kicks in, this does not mean that I think you’re a fascistic mod. I’m just saying you can ban me with the reason “User left the forum.” I think it would for the best. I really can’t play nice.


#25

Will agree with you on everything but this part. Nature of spirits/Gods matter, Truth matters. SPecially in Advanced Occult. In a bit advanced level hierarchy of beings, how do they correspends to Us and how they relate to each other is EVERYTHING.


#26

Sad to hear that. Well, what can be done?


#27

Huh, I thought this would be a constructive discussion but I guess I was wrong.


#28

Au contraire:

And this:

I used hive-mind since it was an expression you used in your OP, to discuss spirits - I was making the point that the same thing you say about them, applies to us. :+1:

Completely different methods to what? Grimoire trad., do you mean, with the compelling under godnames etc? I ask for clarification, not snark - the difference is not always clear in text.

My answer would generally be that the same spirits tend to like the same things (Belial will often opine about your sex life, Azazel will generally like a bit of formality from most people) and this is why it’s called “unverified personal gnosis” - which states the lack of verification is there, but not as a demeaning label, just as a statement of fact.

Over time these things become generally agreed upon to be a feature of that spirit (the peer-testing approach) but that does not mean that, if they fail to act that way towards someone, we can automatically assume that person is deluded or in contact with an imposter.

There are more “tells” available in this system than are listed in the grimoire descriptions, which are all very short and often, obtuse or in code.

The descriptions are also biased by the beliefs of the time - Buné can assist in contact with deceased family members, but to the people of the grimoire era, “dead is dead” and it was considered to be “god’s will” that the veil never be lifted aside, so this would have seemed an abomination, they were supposed to lay in wait for Judgement or be in purgatory or heaven etc.

Both older and newer spiritual explorations found this not to be the case, therefore, what she does is not perceived as demonic or unnatural.

Can we just not go there?

I thought we were having a debate where we put forward points of view? If you can only do zero-sum stuff, where you prove someone wrong or they prove you wrong/exert force on you, how is that driving forward knowledge?

Isn’t that what we both care about?

It’s just defensiveness and dogma waiting to find a channel where it meets no opposition.

Look how I have worked to research seemingly different perceptions of Belial, for example, in my link above, to see how you can also be part of driving knowledge forward by bringing your own experiences with these spirits.

You are very obviously committed to doing the work, and care about people not being misled. Don’t make me ban you by adding a side of jerk to that?

Stay and dial down the “bruised pride… projections and bollocks” nonsense and act like you’re talking to a fellow human being instead of an annoyance to be crushed. You may enjoy it. :stuck_out_tongue:


I contend that truth in magick (which is what I am addressing) can ONLY be verified by results. Fine philosophies on how one evoked X and they agreed and you did the ritual but oops, no result, because “it was not your time” or “it’s your karma” or - the all-time fave - “It was a test” is just bullshit, no matter what.

Either a spirit says “I will not do this for you” (and either gives a reason and further conditions, or does not) or, they are bullshitting, or maybe, your own mind is.

Results are the benchmark in magick, which is substantially different to religion and mysticism, that seek ideas, not material changes. :thinking:


#29

Hiya OP!

Have you ever crushed a kaleidoscope? And I mean really ground it down, into shiny dust, with some of the parts only reflecting one color, but some reflecting more? When you mix that with your given blood, perception is created- the whole ‘what if our lives are superdrug-induced hallucinations we took as aliens’ debate comes to mind here! :slight_smile:

In the metaphor, how did you give your blood to the collection of reflective particles? How much did you give, and with what? Was the blood you gave red, or, some other color? I ask these questions because each different consciousness reading this will come to an answer, and they could have very well thought the same things in the same ways, or, not! :slight_smile:

The universe isn’t just reflections of yourself cast among the stars, but they do exist, just like the consciousnesses of everything that ever was, could have been, or was thought of- no thing is everything, but the esoteric interpretation of gravity is sometimes thought of as intention. You move through magical reality by the same principles you do through physical reality, by creating sometimes unconscious impulses of intention and thought which structure your world(view). Simultaneous navigation can be difficult to consciously apply, but works wonders when you get through the kinks! :slight_smile:

The entire physical advantage of humanity comes from our grouping and recording, or, the communication abilities that led us to become social animals. That’s how history, science, and magic all came to be conveyed and understood; by people telling other people what to look for, or how to see the stories of the world as it was, is, or could be! On the deepest levels of reality, this tunes the amorphous blob of perception that is ‘you’, into the frequencies of the storyteller or the story, depending on magical involvement, and that is how resonance is born. By putting other people’s blood into your kaleidoscope dust! :slight_smile:

Grimoires, books, texts, videos- the vessel of the message doesn’t matter as much as the intention to convey it. So when it comes to occult publishing, the tide has dramatically shifted multiple times! As a cultural experience magic has been incorporated into the fabric or fringes of the societies that had it- because all of them did! :slight_smile:

Egyptians and Tibetans are just an example of cultures that had both ‘public magic’, where ritualized practices and deeply spiritual life were the norm, and ‘private magic’, where inner levels of society had access to deeper understanding and working with the powers that founded the basis of their understanding. Where magic is normal business, there’s always a more exclusive group that has been taught to know more and do better at magic than most people ever could. :slight_smile:

If you talked to a member of an outer circle, their configuration of reality would be structured differently to that of a member of an inner circle. If you give the outer circle guy the tools of the inner circle one, it’s unlikely to trigger a transformation, but the notes and records? Adding the directly human component is what allows us to understand each other- we talk with words and images, so it takes a lot longer to communicate by energy because we’re so unaccustomed to it! :slight_smile:

If you’re willing to change your perception in accordance with the instructions presented to you, then, an author doesn’t need to convince you of reality to get you to subscribe to it! This can be conscious or not, but the defining feature is the willingness to defer to a source that isn’t your direct perception- if you take words above what’s in front of you, or you use words to structure what’s in front of you, you’re resonating with the message more than your natural state. There are pros to this, like copying what people find useful and making it your own, but cons can be hard to avoid when you aren’t sure if the author is overriding you- when in doubt, tear a page out! :slight_smile:

Using records to get to things that might be useful is just ‘pathworking’, which usually only amounts to following in the footsteps of. In texts from restrictive or dangerous times to be a magician, they had to evolve to survive; so they’re a cut above when it comes to making sure readers don’t find and murder them, and sometimes that means they’re more predatory and pre-emptive with the magic lacing their surface stuff. It can be hard to get out of the grasp of an old archmage! :slight_smile:

My point OP is that it isn’t all expectation or subjectivity, but that the all in the first place is influenced heavily not only by expectation and subjectivity, but experience and thought, too- you can resonate or trip in and out of entire universes of understanding, but controlled effort makes the most difference. If you’re in control, rather than being controlled, and consciously employing a text because it works for you, you’re in a better configuration than someone who is being controlled into believing the text is reality itself. The difference is small but it can make a lifetime in progress terms. The map is not the territory! :slight_smile:

AKA- unless you’re trying to deliberately peel back from recorded instances of a being, similarities can be anything from beings with the same name, to different personalities of the same being, to ghosts, etc. Unless there’s direct verification, there’s no reason to assume anyone is talking to the same thing! :slight_smile:

The only way to expand or reconfigure your hologram is to try. :slight_smile:


#30

This part I agree but is magick just getting some material things done? Isn’t evolution/Ascension, getting rid of weakness also a big part of magick.

Is it? can’t one argue that Prayer in Christianity or Dua in Islam also is for material change? They may not have the facility of directly contacting with the medium of changes aka spirits like mages do but many times spirits also lies and says they can do the work but fails. Yoga, energy work doesn’t directly change the material world but makes one so fit and sharp physically and mentally that they may function at their prime in the material world, and that is largely to make changes in the material world. SO :confused:

Also, knowing that it is Belial to go for Legal problems not Bune is also knowing some objective truth. ( Lol, this reminds me of Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson’s famous or rather infamous discussion about the nature of truth :stuck_out_tongue:)

U experienced infusion with Raphael, wouldn’t it mattered if it was turned out to be some nasty importer and messed up your energy body while infusing??!!

ThAt’s all I am saying :slight_smile: . Just threw some ideas just to further the discussion. The topic is good.


#31

Well, the only comment I really want to make is this:

That is a result, it’s either yes or no, in that it either happens, or does not. Weakness is a cause of certain effects - when the effects stop happening, you know you have eradicated the cause.

You have changed your reality.

So, you will know if you got your result, or just a load of waffle.

For example, if you want to get rid of some of your weaknesses, especially within white-light paradigms that lean more mystical, you can do things and you will get contact with spirits, or some other higher forces, and they’ll spin you a fine-sounding line like:

“all is one, but there are many voices, the universe exists to experience life, and yet does not exist without the observer… seek within, your power is greater than you think… what you call weaknesses are the pain within you seeking healing, remember to accept All That Is… use wisdom, trust your heart, but remember you are not your emotions, they merely serve you… even bad things that happen in life usually serve some purpose”

… all of which some spirits will fob you off with, if you are willing to tolerate that.

And nothing will change while you’re chasing down those blind alleys. :laughing:

If you have one spirit that will give you hours of that and tell you that you’re the King of Mars, chosen one to hold the universe’s gnoses, or whatever, and a second spirit who calls you a lazy useless cunt to your face, but who will manifest a free gym membership, or an experience that permanently scares you from ever touching another cigarette or burger, via rapid routes that you can use right away, choose the second guy, because he’s the one who can AND DOES make your life better. :man_shrugging:

Or, you (I mean hypothetical strength-seeker) can sit and navel-gaze, and get further away from personal emobodied power in this, OUR realm, becaue you are playing the human game by the rules of the spiritual realities. I honestly saw that happen all the time in my own white-light days and it’s such a dangerous trap to fall into. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#32

Because their both right. For example alot of people could be working with a said deity…but then some could be working with an impostor. I think the terms defining what is what are not complex enough.

The problem here is the syndrome bestowed is the same the 3 Religions encounter frequently… Meaning they all of a sudden have a One True Prophet who “speaks for GOD” for the chosen deity…who by the way is the only one who can be the only “One True God/Satan/Deity” and all others are false.

This is why I say these things. Do I think yours is? No. I just see it as a magickal act of an expression of Spirit where you are one of many spirit cults out there looking for followers and energy…not too much different than a Celebrity or politician who wants to get recognized and a foothold up to the next level.


#33

Just like 1 original book can be reprinted many times and have many copies of itself in all kinds of different areas. 1 Demon can multiply itself in many directions simultaneously. Kind of like 1 octopus spreading his tentacles and each tentacle touching a different object.


#34

I can resonate with this

with me, Lilith is tough love, kind of figure to bring the problem I am seeking to solve to light so I can solve it. Some people may have different experiences, and frankly that is what makes OUR experiences interesting and unique. Think of how boring it would be to have the same relationship with an entity that someone else has.


#36

Overall this is an interesting ‘discussion’

good read

I am confused with what you’re saying here. Could you elaborate?


#37

That “detach from everything, everything is true and equally valid, don’t resist, just go with the flow” mindset of the white-light world, in general.


#38

So don’t fall into that trap of a mindset.

So just branch your own path, stay connected, take things with a grain of salt.
Would be the better mindset to follow?:face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#39

That’s the way I flow, Joe. :wink:


#40

Eyy

Insert sick baa dum tisss


#41

But on a serious note. Magic/k to me is very different for each individual. What might be good and work for one might not necessarily work for another.

I think this could easily apply to how entities work and interact differently will each individual. They would act in a way that would be beneficial to that individual.

That’s why I enjoy Dragon Magic so much. It is very much a personal/individual experience. Not one person experiences it exactly the same way.

But that’s just my POV, take it how ever you like. :grin: