What Is Consciousness?

I understand your argument to be that consciousness contradicts materialism because it doesn’t share the same properties. But materialism simply views consciousness as arising from the material world, that the properties of the mind (e.g. non-physical) exist within a materialist framework, so I don’t think this is a contradiction.”

That is a flawed philosophical perspective, not scientific. There are a couple of problems with this statement. One is that to have properties, there must be some form of matter. (matter being a material substance) Consciousness does not have “properties”. It is not a material substance.

I’m going to sprinkle some quotes from Max Tegmark, a well respected MIT physics professsor who wrote this paper that exists in different edited formats, on what he conjectures “Consciousness As A State Of Matter.”

https://ghayb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/1401.1219v2.pdf

A. Consciousness in physics

A commonly held view is that consciousness is irrelevant to physics and should therefore not be discussed in physics papers. One oft-stated reason is a perceived lack of rigor in past attempts to link consciousness to physics. Another argument is that physics has been managed just fine for hundreds of years by avoiding this subject, and should therefore keep doing so. Yet the fact that most physics problems can be solved without reference to consciousness does not guarantee that this applies to all physics problems.”

In this paper, I conjecture that consciousness can be understood as yet another state of matter. Just as there are many types of liquids, there are many types of consciousness. However, this should not preclude us from identifying, quantifying, modeling and ultimately understanding the characteristic properties that all liquid forms of matter (or all conscious forms of matter) share”

Science does not necessarily deny the existence of pre existing or pervasive forms of energy that we cannot quantify. We know and can quantify radiation emitting from the brain. If we didn’t have brain scan technology, we wouldn’t know that fact. The brain serves the same function, it acts a processor or scanner for what prexisted the organic brain, in terms of thoughts or “consciousness”

For example, does the non-observability of spacetime regions beyond horizons imply that they in some sense do not exist independently of the regions that we can observe?”

Physics defines supernatural on starkly different independent terms than religion and philosophy. Physics in particular, does not deny the existence of the supernatural, material, etherial, or otherwise. Only Materialism does that, on materialistic terms. Laws of physics are not necessarily absolute. What is material only exists in the materialistic framework, before it eventually tranfers into another form of energy.

Any philosophical perspective can literally mean anything to the philosopher who sees the world through his philosophical prism. Philosophy explained the world as best it could before science became more advanced. Philosophy only explains human behavior, it cannot explain quantum mechanics, or the creation and the evolution of life forms, or how life forms are able to process survival data, conscious or stimulus response.

In Epistomological terms, religion coins consciousness as metaphysical. You cannot call something that is formless and elusive as consciousness “material”, simply because it is processed by the same material chemical means that allows everything else we perceive to seen, known, or understood. Consciousness, magic, or even will to power in Black Magic , have no basis in matter or materialism as we know it. None whatsoever. Even though such phenomena is the vehicle for magical change in our material universe.

Why are you conscious right now? Specifically, why are you having a subjective experience of reading these words, seeing colors and hearing sounds, while the inanimate objects around you are presumably not having any subjective experience at all? Different people mean different things by “consciousness”, including awareness of environment or self. I am asking the more basic question of why you experience anything at all, which is the essence of what philosopher David Chalmers has termed “the hard problem” of consciousness and which has preoccupied philosophers throughout the ages (see [5] and references therein). A traditional answer to this problem is dualism — that living entities differ from inanimate ones because they contain some non-physical element such as an “anima” or “soul”.”

Support for dualism among scientists has gradually dwindled with the realization that we are made of quarks and electrons, which as far as we can tell move according to simple physical laws.”

Only problem is, consciousness does not have a particle! Material products, matter or energy, are created by quantum mechanical means that can be measured. Consciousness is not manufactured because we have a brain. It is only perceived because we have a more sophisticated brain than mammals or amphibians. Our thoughts can perceive rocks, but the rocks are already there. We percieve light, air, sight, smell, and sound that all of which would exist without us. We know gravity exists but we cannot put it on a table and analyze it. So wherever consciousness comes from, the materialist version of consciousness is the product of wishfull thinking, no pun intended. It is not only flawed thinking, it is absolutely wrong.

We as humans percieve everything through our brain because that happens to be the way we evolved. Whatever Nature is, Satan, God, Buddha, Dark Energy, Entropy, we know nature works it’s own magic, but we don’t know how. Why? That doesn’t accomplish anything.

If we percieved it through our kidneys, it wouldn’t make any difference, if the result was the same. If we as humans had no brain, that does not mean we could not live, evolve, or survive. It simply means our way of processing reality in terms of survival would be slightly different than that of a Jelly Fish.

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I feel like we came in in the middle of a conversation, would you clarify the viewpoint you’re defending here?

There are two parts in the quote, which was the one that you state is flawed? Are you saying you don’t think consciousness contradicts materialism?

This actually seems to agree with the paper presented " Consciousness As A State Of Matter"? In their defense, don’t see why this should be considered “unscientific”, since asking questions is exactly how science is done. :thinking: In this case, I cannot see where the contradiction is, either. But if you posted what your view is in summary, maybe that would help.

Why is that? What is your definition of “property”, and what is the definition the quoted person used? If “property” is used in the sense of “meta information”, that could be a different way of using the word where there’s no requirement that it be attached to an observable state.

That’s a very interesting paper. It’s one of those things that creates more questions. I note that he did not plump to a conclusion to state that matter based models can predict patterns in consciousness successfully, (which would be the point of such work imo, if you can predict it you can work with it repeatably), and he listed 3 main problems with the hypothesis, calling it a “viewpoint”. I like it.
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Not sure that this is the case. In my worldview, consciousness is energy, and as you know, energy can be observed as particle or waveform. Thus consciousness can manifest as matter.

matter or energy, are created by quantum mechanical means that can be measured

Just to clarify, as they say “Matter cannot be created or destroyed” it only changes form. Matter and energy are the same thing.
This relies on the idea that the amount of matter/energy in the universe is a constant. So you’re talking and transforms here?

The caveat here is the the observations themselves are confined to the material, and are limited in ability to measure all of the universe. We don’t usually assume that just because we currently are not able to measure something instrumentally, that it doesn’t exist. Consciousness exists and is measurable in many ways, and I’m not saying I think there’s anything as simple as a “consciousness particle”, I think it’s a lot more complicated than that, but we don’t know it all just yet :slight_smile: We have models, and when the model’s predictions turn out true then we keep the model. Quantum mechanics is just another model, and should not be put on any pedestal labeled “truth”. That would be unscientific.

It seems the best instrument for measuring consciousness that I know of so far, is another conscious being. If you look into the work done with Ingo Swann into this, they made inroads into making experiments that were repeatable and reliable this way.

My wiev is, counsciousness is material and matter is in the consciousness

Material, astral, mental etc. these are all “planes”,
For example, mental things are not real as material sense, but when a living thing (when have mind and thougths) interact with these mental structures, can shape the our world : 1) but with a limited ability because we have limited minds, 2) with limited resources, because our bodies are limited if we dont developed new technologies (like magic)

According to theory, every plane has their own realm, and skepticism of science on occult is appropriate.

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And who are you quoting in the opening paragraph?

And who are you quoting in the opening paragraph?

There are two seperate sources for the quotes, One is the paragraph you mentioned, the other is Tegmark

According to theory, every plane has their own realm, and skepticism of science on occult is appropriate

It may be appropriate, but I think it is misguided, from my own experience, and not from what I read in books

he listed 3 main problems with the hypothesis, calling it a “viewpoint”. I like it

I like it too, it’s interesting

The caveat here is the the observations themselves are confined to the material, and are limited in ability to measure all of the universe.

I agree with that

Just to clarify, as they say “ Matter cannot be created or destroyed ” it only changes form. Matter and energy are the same thing.

That’s a scientific premise, and it’s true on certain levels, such as particles or molecules, that type of thing. The other caveat is energy that exists (hypothetically) but has not yet been detected by the conventional means of detection,

Are you saying you don’t think consciousness contradicts materialism?

In my view, consciosness contradicts materialism, for the simple reason that there is no material evidence for it. I said contradicts, I didn’t say consciousness does not exist.

This actually seems to agree with the paper presented " Consciousness As A State Of Matter"?

Tegmark is only theorizing it. He doesn’t draw a hard conclusion. My own view is that consciousness cannot be considered material if it has no actual material properties. In that sense, what ever consciousness is, it’s a form of energy perhaps we cannot explain in the atomic sense

In their defense, don’t see why this should be considered “unscientific”

I would submit that the claim of “consciousness as matter” is more dogma than science fact, but it is indeed an interesting theory

Quick FYI, if you want to edit a post to add to it, you can tap he three dots and then the pencil icon. You have a few minutes where you can make changes.

Not sure that this is the case. In my worldview, consciousness is energy, and as you know, energy can be observed as particle or waveform. Thus consciousness can manifest as matter.

No one has detected it yet, that is part of my point. I don’t claim it doesn’t exist in some other form of energy, but not in detectable particle form as yet

Quantum mechanics is just another model, and should not be put on any pedestal labeled “truth”. That would be unscienti

That’s true, just as Relativity is another model. The trick is to bridge the gap

We don’t usually assume that just because we currently are not able to measure something instrumentally, that it doesn’t exist.

I agree

Why is that? What is your definition of “property”, and what is the definition the quoted person used

I go by the generic definition of property, which my understanding is that anything containing a particular property is material, which consciousness is not

Materiality is not technically part of the definition of “property”.

You’ll see it includes the idea that a property can also be a “quality”. For example, consciousness is a “thing” although not a physical thing, it can be pointed to as a discrete functional entity on it’s own, and a quality of consciousness can be “self awareness”. If the original person quoted was using this definition, that might help explain the disagreement and why they thought they did not disagree… they simply used a wider definition than you did.

Probably not as far as consciousness is concerned. I don’t thin any of the current models work 100 percent for these yet. There are other models as well, they all serve specific purposes based on the underlying assumption. There’s no reason to bridge any gaps because they are purpose built to the conditions of their frameworks.

E.g., Quantum models are specific to relativistic speeds, while Newtonian mechanic assumes specifically non relativistic. E does not equal mc2 in Newtonian physics for thus reason. But this is not incorrect. It’s because you can’t apply the equations that assume certain things when those assumptions no longer apply. In this case, that the velocity is the speed of light or that the system is a “closed system”.

I think it’s not even there yet, as no one is claiming anything of the sort as far as I know, and there is no doctrine around it… it is not a “tenet” Thus, it doesn’t fit the definition of dogma. It’s just a theory, and that’s ok.

Dogma” means " something held as an established opinion, especially a definite authoritative tenet". Merriam Webster Dictionary

But that’s what they spend alot of their time doing. Bridging the gap is more of a popular past time, but it is a major undertaking in resolving one of the greatest mysteries in modern Physics, since the Big Bang. By the same token, even if they by chance were to come up with a unified theory, we don’t know exactly what that will accomplish. More theories I suppose.

E.g., Quantum models are specific to relativistic speeds, while Newtonian mechanic assumes specifically non relativistic. E does not equal mc2 in Newtonian physics for thus reason.

Agreed, that’s why I said known laws of physics are not necessarily absolute

Psychology?* Psychology explains a lot more than just human behavior. And philosophy was the father of both philosophy and modern science.