Probably not making any friends here, but

I am at work so I was not being technical, but I think you (we all) get the essence of the statement.


Constructively, when you spot a thread like that and have the time/inclination, post challenging the person in an appropriate way to ask the spirit for information that’s actually useful, and not just empty regurgitation of newage concepts, or unfalsifiable ideas about that person being the living manifestation of X higher demon, god, or other force.

Core shamanism, for example, teaches RAPID contact with spirits, including high “rank” spirits, but it does come with the built-in requirement to get things you can verify, to trust a spirit after they have given you useful advice, done some energy healing where you really felt the benefit for longer than a day or so, things like that. :thinking:

I do agree with the gist of the rest of your post, but simply creating an “us and them” concept in which we all know “certain people” exist and feel very smug about not being amongst them helps precisely nobody.

It creates a strawman to be demolished with glee, whilst doing nothing about the perceived problem, and allows people to avoid actually dealing with the issue in a way that would help both themselves (teaching someone is a great way to increases one’s own mastery) and also, help that person.

I do largely agree with your other points, especially regarding horror stories and being a fraid, the latter especially is something I’ve emphasised as part of the journey, and it never really stops unless the person stops evolving and expanding their own boundaries.

The only other thing I want to challenge is this:

Unless and until demonic Kings routinely give those of us with experience the advice that they are above the mere beginners, and exist only for the benefit of such sanctified maguses as our hallowed selves (that’s sarcasm, for those new to me) then I see no flaws in this advice.


A person does not go to a half-skilled violinist if he wishes to learn that instrument - he finds a master who has much experience teaching, has a good reputation, and a solid track record.

Magick is the same, a higher being can always appoint or create a familiar (in reality, as I have said before, many spirits will create a kind of egregoric interface of themselves, in order to guide that person on a closer level) or tell the beginner to go elsewhere.

Many spirits, I’m going to say especially Belial, Azazel and Ba’el, are more than willing to give you the name of a spirit more suited to a task: if you don’t have great telepathic comms, or don’t entirely trust what you do have, they will make that name appear in your mind, through enough sounds-alike names to be recognisable, or through coincidences (outside a place like this forum) of seeing the name come up many times in a short period.

So, my final word is, it’s great to name a problem, but we can all do that, and feel very smug about it - the challenge lies in doing something about it. :+1:


Well, the main beef that I have with the article is the, “Don’t evoke Demonic Kings first off.” First off, many on here vouch for Lucifer as a good guy to get started off with, and he’s goddamned Emperor of Hell!

Another point, EA evoked King Paimon without an invocation of omnipotence or much else to make him seem more authoritative, but he still reached an agreement with Paimon for results because he had the nerve to assert himself along with the genuine need for results.

Even in his Vine video, he didn’t mention anything about invoking omnipotence, yet he still did a basic sigil spell with Vine without any bindings or Godnames. One could say that it was because he knew his own will, but he wouldn’t demonstrate it as a tutorial if he believed that other people couldn’t do it.

I don’t personally want to create the expectation in my mind that I have to tip-toe around high-level demons lest they just fuck up my life, as if they don’t naturally want to guide people in their ascent.


I may be wrong for speaking here but i will say this. I don’t think he was saying only the adepts and experienced magicians can or should evoke. I think the point was that it should also come with much other practices and expectations. The picture that is painted in many posts is that it is so easy for other people who are or may not be trying as hard as or as long as you makes it very discouraging and frustrating for others who are struggling so hard and do not experience the things they are reading. I know that i, myself, have actually cried because it sometimes made me feel so.less than and like shit. Not jealous as in wishing that nothing good like that happened for others, but more like what the hell am i doing WRONG!? The good thing that came from this conversation was that no we are not doing so bad and no, we are NOT alone. That is a great thing. It encourages me and destroys that illusion of being not good enough. This is not an easy path nor is there one experience or one way to do it. We all have our own path to follow. And maybe this thread shows me i need to take my own advise. Stop judging your insides by looking at someone else’s outsides.


The only thing that I view as worthwhile in this thread is discerning fake experiences from real experiences. And that is a delicate business - you cannot know for sure the person’s situation.

Furthermore, it is completely up to the individual to decide whether they will listen to someone else’s UPG, hence such discernment falls on the reader.

Other than that, I see no point in this thread. Don’t agree with any other points - for example that evoking a demonic king is only for more experienced magickians.

And especially see no point in the air of smugness coming from this thread, and the “set up”. If someone disagrees - he’s suddenly “one of those people”, and if someone agrees - congratulations, you made it, you’re a true magickian!

Who gives a fuck?

There is better shit to do than rub our dicks to how experienced we might be.

Stop comparing yourself to others. Compare yourself to yourself.


I have literally been told this by spirits. To paraphrase Belial, “Stop comparing yourself to others on the forum. Spirit moves in it’s own time.”


^ This.

I am always amused when I look down 25+ years of magick, spirit contact, and getting verifiable results, to see people with 3, 5, or 10 years moaning about all these damn newbies! :rofl:

And even if it was purely about the numbers, many people are born with some skill or link that brings them up to speed FAST, and furthermore, this is the era in history when many such people are incarnating, to assist with a cosmic r/evolution, of which things such as BALG and my own theogenesis prophecy are just aspects of the whole.

We can best discern the real experiences by sharing them - if someone joined this forum with 6 months experience, of which some was opening Belial’s sigil and wondering why they felt he wanted to them to change their sexual preferences, we can pretty much know that confused person is in contact with the same spirit who has made similar recommendations to those of us with years of practice, and regardless of whether we’re gay, straight, kinky, or otherwise.

However, if we all worry too much about appearing credible, then sharing such an intimate thing would not occur, and so we’d be holding back the concept of peer review by self-censoring, due to wanting to seem cool, and not like we think this mighty demonic King deigns to care what we like in bed. :thinking:

Agreed, this applies equally to magicians:

While I’m at it, also relevant:


“10 years…all these damn newbies”… that whole paragraph. You have a point there. :zipper_mouth_face:


I try to keep perspective, even with 16 or so years being completely obsessed with guitar I still consider myself an “Intermediate” and maybe “Advanced” player on great days even though I can play note-for-note 99% of anything I’ll ever hear and have had airplay on Australian radio/studio gigs on other artists albums as a full time set in and a guest artist. I realize music is the ultimate playground and the deeper you go, the more there is to learn. Therefore I’m an intermediate player on the world stage because I can’t hold a candle to Guthrie Govan or Andy Timmons, even though I can play a lot of their songs - they wrote them and when they did it was effortless.

That said, I know there is a fundamental skill set to learn and with guitar students I have a few ways of approaching this skill set. Same with any of my athletics clients I’ve trained. I generally won’t have someone graduate to barbell deadlifts until they can pull 315 for 5 clean reps with a trap bar.

Given your experience, what’s a solid approach for learning the main 3 skills? Namely the “let this skill or two become solid first and you’ll find it enhances these.” I know it’s a huge question but I’d like to see more of this being talked about. Everything can be deconstructed and worked on in sequence even in an abstract like music. I meditate regularly for OCD management and I’m quite used to telepathically discerning what a spirit is trying to communicate with me given my upbringing.

My first reaction to this thread was “Maybe I should focus on petitions for the next 3-6 months and practice evoking with King Paimon until I get stronger astral senses.”

Is this wise? What’s a good set of Magickal benchmarks to get to for someone like me? I’ve experienced connective evocation before but it’s different depending on the spirit I’m speaking with. I know meditation is a big deal so I’ve been taking that seriously. What would your ideal student actually do?


Probably core shamanism, it formalises and gives an interface into spirit worlds and contact that begins with a creative act of imagination/structuring, and then the World Tree gradually infills that, with what is co-created giving way to external verifiable things.

I say this because it’s so akin to the method I created for myself as a child, where i travelled to different spirit realms using an imaginary elevator, that I know for a fact it works and that it also seems to tie into a global human archetype that’s found among every type of human, despite the many differences in our makeup that have created such different cultures and understandings of the nature of the gods, and our place in the universe.

No other method I am aware of has quite this pedigree of being universally 1. found and used by all humans and 2. coming so naturally to me as a child that I can personally verify its framework and its effectiveness.

And it will boost all senses, and give you shortcuts to use for other methods as well.



Do the method that comes easeist in terms of giving verifiable

  • advice - for example, warning you that your boss is going to be in a shitty mood tomorrow, so keep a low profile and don’t pull that sickie you were thinking of taking to watch some sports, and keep note of how often ideas that can’t come from you have helped you in ways you could not foresee

  • manifest results - they tell you to visit town even though you’re too skint to shop, you find $50 at the bus stop or get given a voucher for groceries - keep a small note of these things as well

  • comprehension that aids you, does not destabilise - yes, it’s all very nice that you’re the incarnation of Odin/Thoth/Zeus himself, but so are we all, albeit to different degrees, the truly useful thing is to help you reconstruct your understanding of the world and your own experiences so that you no longer feel like a victim, a thing bobbing haplessly in an ocea of other things.

Do the things that come easiest because they will build muscles (so to speak) that make the other stuff easier as well, if all you can do is astral journey to one spirit (for example) but you get results, do it as often as you can, other skills will follkow along.

Having one spirit or method that you know you can rely upon is the key to unlocking all other things) because it will save you from pursuing dead ends and guide you towards your next success.


Read The Kybalion (PDF, archived link). Nothing is more important for removing confusuon over which spirits are “real” and also, how magick works, and how group observation changes things.

This will unfuck probably 99% of things that will otherwisde use your own common sense and intellect to bar you from achieving amazing results with magick.


Try other things, keep your eyes open, never rule out a paradigm, concept, or method, once you have your core skill (listed in One above) you can ask for advice on what comes next.

This was how I got to “become as” the Angel of Lost Things, which was nowhere on my consciously planned list but has been both very educational, and empowering, it’s also assisted me in the cosmic shifts I was aiming for with my core manifesto of global theogenesis. :+1:


Sure it does. It weeds out pretenders and lazy shytes so people that need help and want to do the work can get it. I don’t generally comment on any posts where I feel my time is being wasted, mostly because it is already a waste of my time having read the BS in the first place.

Sure, some methods cause faster results in certain areas; this rant is directed at people that are obviously full of shit. I have no problems creating an us and them scenario with these types because they are going on a magick forum and have nothing to do with magick. That is in fact an us and them scenario. Sorry, I absolutely do not feel everyone deserves equal attention or an explanation, and I certainly do not think we are all equals in terms who should be given attention. I firmly believe we reap what we sow.

Yeah, that is not the context of LARPing I meant. Ritual garb absolutely has a place in some folks’ practices and I take no issue with it.

In a way I feel we all are, just some are more predisposed to it than others, kind of like athletic ability.

Well I certainly do. Nobody mentioned anything about being above beginners, but there is no shame in understanding degrees of experience. Would you find any issue with taking someone who has never driven before and handing them the keys to Lamborghini? It’s basically the same thing. At what point did we become so open minded that the concept of being responsible for our advice should also come with no drawbacks?

I did. I saw a problem of people faking and being lazy, called it into court, and my call has been answered by a healthy amount of folks with a like mind. I did also suggest a solution, remember?

I don’t recall saying that. I said that it was potentially dangerous to advise a beginner to engage in spirit work with zero experience and zero knowledge and zero skill. If you don’t like what I have to write, do what I do when I read something I do not like; move on.

Yeah, an open mind is great, but at what point does it become so open that any crap can just be poured in. Look, we are not ‘special’, so when I hear bullshit and smell bullshit it is probably bullshit. But, I think we have had this conversation once before, have we not?

The most smug thing I have seen yet is the fact that you think this is a set up, and it sure as shit is smug for you to assume my motivations or any others’ either.

Then why the fuck are you commenting?

I have seen nobody in this thread making any such claims. I have seen more than a few respectable members echo my sentiment that this is something that has been an annoyance. Don’t like the conversation? Don’t join it.

First off, don’t EVER tell me what to do. Second, I hold nobody to any standard that I do not hold myself to even more intensely. So, when I see someone who wants to be lazy or just outright lie I have no issues calling the problem to the carpet. Why? Because I am an absurdly hard worker and almost infallibly honest with people I respect; I have no patience for that horse shit.

The fact that I made this a general rant in the first place shows the breadth and depth of my magnanimity.

Nobody is complaining about newbies here, ma’am. We are, however, annoyed with liars and laziness. Maybe we are complaining about them because it clogs the forum and inhibits actual conversations between real practitioners. When have I ever been anything but kind to a beginner? I think you have grossly misunderstood the spirit of this thread.


I annoyed HOGD teachers with trying to jump ahead, saying I was doing the work when I wasn’t, and got pissed off when I was called on it. That’s why I keep a journal here stating the days Dreams, Physical notes, Mental notes, Rituals, Synchronicities, Meditations … My work I do and try to record every day. If I didn’t do shit I honestly state that for the given day.
I’m holding myself accountable and see where I need to improve on. Just because I get pissy when called out doesn’t mean I’m entitled to jump ahead, which is as damning for a teacher as it is for me.
In their grade system, I can say I’m barely of an initial pre-adept air grade.
Honesty, yes, honesty is beneficial for yourself and others. I’m not better than anyone else, I can say this because I know I’ve not mastered much … I may be fair at tarot, but I dont see tarot saving my ass in an astral fight or if an entity turns on me … Except divining beforehand to know what to expect.


That spirit encountered by some of us that was on Conner Kendall lept to mind. I recall trying to read him for not more than two seconds and being filled with terror.
Whoever the entity was must have a wallet that says “Bad Mother Fucker” embroidered on it.


Lmao, okay.

Yeah, your example really doesn’t fit the argument you are trying to make there.

A better example would be to perhaps try possession with a random ass spirit you never knew from before and that isn’t found in any grimoire.

And that is why every person needs discernment.

You have discernment to smell the bullshit, but for some reason you act as if you are afraid of having too much ‘crap’ poured in. What gives?


It’s not what I think - it’s what is written in the post. I refuse to believe you are unable to realize what you yourself wrote in that post.

As for your motivations - doesn’t matter. What is written is written.

You are misquoting what I said. Read my post again.


Never told you what to do - it was meant for everyone - nor do I care about you.

Also… really?



Lady_Eva, those are three great points.

When you just spend most of your time unironically doing what exactly?

That is all anyone really needs to know isn’t it, and all i care to add, thank you that really made my day.


I’m fairly libertarian with most things, and magick is no exception. If a newbie asks for help to summon something insane, my stance is to not treat them like a child. I’d give them a friendly disclaimer as a warning, but i’m going to help them out if i can, because this stuff isn’t a secret anymore, and i believe people should be free to make these choices for themselves without me having to babysit them, or act as some sort of gatekeeper to knowledge. People have enough agency to be responsible for themselves and their choices, and i feel the reason this forum does so well is because it gives people the tools and leaves the decision making on how to use it with them.


You got me. It’s all lies! Hehe.

Loved the post, and wholeheartedly agree.

I’m no Ipsissimus level sorcerer. All I have are my experiences, including failures and advice on how to avoid my failures.

My goal here is simple. I try to share my discoveries and techniques in return for all the advice and sharing that goes on.

One of my greatest hopes for this forum is that people share real experiences. I have been honest with mine. Btw, although evocation (and a severe instance of physical manifestation) has helped me with fear response, I still get startled.

Several years later and, although I am a real, practicing, self-initiated Sorcerer, I have not called on the demonic kings. Baby steps.

As a matter if fact the time to call on the Kings is finally here. (Hopefully this weekend!)


So, to sum it up:

Other ways to sum it up: