@Dinmiatus The point is that as someone committed to the eventual total victory of the black and unholy I cannot accept working with a being which for any reason will oppose or seek to push out the infernal. “Natural cycle” or otherwise. I am bound in soul and by blood to that cause. If the Angel’s nature is to promote this constant cycle, then they are my enemies. The Spirits have made it clear that they have no intention of being pushed out of this world again. They intend to stay this time, and stay forever. My duty as their Disciple is to ensure that they do.
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Here is my take on it. When you worship an entity you become biased to that energy. So much so sometimes that you become unable to see any aspect of other entities in any other way than the lens of your worship allows. There is some part of your analytical process which is still extremely polarized.
Okay, first of all the idea that spiritual entities “war” with each other in any kind of human capacity does not work for me. Here is why: they are timeless, right? If they are timeless that would imply this war has always been occurring and always will because there is no linear start or finish to such a conflict. This is a metaphor for polar opposite energies and I think you are taking it out of context. Spirits love to convey concepts in the form of metaphor. It is one of their favorite ways to teach.
Again I feel you are laying a human template over this, so let me add mine. When war is in session very few of the people actually fighting are taking this fight personally. If most looked at the opposing side as their hated enemy most cases of PTSD would not exist because there would be no guilt in the equation to trigger it, no ownership. In many cases where there is active hatred in the soldier the individual can become a kind of “proto-psychopath” temporarily as a coping mechanism, or the person was already out of his mind to begin with. Even in modern times you will find that forces like ISIS are comprised largely of mercenaries, with a select few psychopaths calling the shots. Also, just because the entities are insulted does not mean the onus is on Michael and it also does not mean you have to be insulted as well. It goes back to what I said above; you worship them so you are kind of committing yourself to their version of events instead of making your own decision based on info from all sources.
Who are you under the impression they serve? You might have a chuckle at some of my theories on this. I will reserve them for another discussion, mostly because they involve half baked musings and unverifiable gnostic experiences. Let’s just say it is not YHWH. Now, there are some that I call pseudo-angelics, but they are similar to the overall Catholic egregore in nature and origin and I do not consider them “true”.
I am just saying that I disagree with the view of opposition in conflict. To me it is more of a case of opposition in harmony; opposite aspects which are part of a greater whole that actually compliment more than compete. Maybe this is because of my own background, though, so this is only my opinion; nothing more. But, as long as you find excessive value in one energetic current you may find yourself unable to find any value in another opposing one.
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I agree. My views on that have been posted elsewhere.[quote=“Woodsman81, post:51, topic:18073”]
Here is why: they are timeless, right? If they are timeless that would imply this war has always been occurring and always will because there is no linear start or finish to such a conflict.
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I am not sure they are quite timeless the way you say it. They don’t quite exist in linear time like we do, but there’s a definite sense of causality. Events still cause each other even though time is not linear. A jumbled web of interlinked causation across four dimensions. They simply have another dimension on which their conflict can play out. Also, the war ON EARTH seems to be playing out more or less in linear time. With exceptions of course. Time is malleable even here.
In a way Is suppose. I still think I’ve made a rational decision though. These entities have given me a lot of power. That is why I serve. That is different from worship.[quote=“Woodsman81, post:51, topic:18073”]
When you worship an entity you become biased to that energy. So much so sometimes that you become unable to see any aspect of other entities in any other way than the lens of your worship allows.
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That’s why I had someone else do the evocation. Among other reasons. One of them being that I don’t think I am allowed to actually evoke an Angel.
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I don’t encounter angels that way, when I encounter them they come across more like the laws of the Kybalion, with added complexity, so I don’t find them to be like restrictive cosmic policemen, Raphael for example has both recommended working with Marbas, a demon, and also conversed with Belial in front of me, my up-close-an-personal exp. as the Angel of Lost Things also in way resembled the idea angels are cosmic killjoys or henchmen for one weird desert tribe.
So to me, you’re upset with a persona I have not found them to have, but the attitude you have that there MUST be a war seems to be being reflected back to you - which is consistant with my larger findings, and personal experiences, in general.
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@Lady_Eva I am not anti angel by dogma. Most of the Fallen I work with are essentially Angels, but just on a different side. (There’s a reason the evocation has the line “Fallen yet still an Angel” in it). They are to quite a large degree of the light from my experience. Light tinged with darkness really.[quote=“Lady_Eva, post:53, topic:18073”]
Raphael for example has both recommended working with Marbas, a demon,
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The entities I work with are more than just demons though. They have a far more violent past when it comes to Angels. I can see a cooperation between demons and angels. Their is a basis even in the lore I follow for that.
This is another matter entirely.[quote=“Lady_Eva, post:53, topic:18073”]
the attitude you have that there MUST be a war seems to be being reflected back to you
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I really don’t believe there MUST be a war… My problem with Michael isn’t per say what he did back then, but the fact that he would still do it. I am open to working with entities that fought on another side in the Great War (a term I just made up) if they’ve decided to work together now. I know entities who are far more cooperative now, and I am open to reaching out to them. The entities I work with share that view. I don’t want a war, but if the angels want to push out the entities I work with, because of some “natural cycle”, which is what Michael seems to be suggesting, I am obliged to oppose him.
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I’m not saying dogma - heartfelt belief system is not dogma.
Nor am I saying don’t follow your path, I simply gave my opinion on why an angel would be different, to you, than to me, or someone else.
I described the concept more fully in the post below:
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@Lady_Eva So if I go to beings thinking they are evil then they will be? That’s something I will have to look into. Would that still apply if someone else did the evocation though? Wouldn’t that ensure a certain level of objectivity? How would my preconceptions be imprinted onto someone else’s evocation? That’s what really confuses me. I had literally nothing to do with the actual ritual. @Baal Doesn’t seem to have the same ideas I do.
Also, what about the Spirits own personality then? Doesn’t the Spirit have some inherent characteristics regardless of who is evoking? You can filter perhaps, but they would still be them wouldn’t they? That’s what I personally believe. At the end of the day they are still them. Their attitude may change, but inherently they would still be the same being wouldn’t they?
I suppose it’s like a person then? If you go to them in a rude manner then they will be rude back? If you go over be nice, and bring gifts, then they will be nice too? You would still be you whether I went up to you with a smile or with a gun pointed at you, but you would react vastly differently. That’s the explanation that seems to resonate with me the most. It definitely explains some of the very unpleasant experiences some people have reported while working with the same beings I do while maintaining the objective existence of these beings. I personally could never understand all the complaints that some people had about the beings I work with. Something to do with the way they approached these beings perhaps? That would explain a lot.
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That’s a lot of questions only your own experiences will answer, without simply generating more of the same.
Disliking the Abrahamic faiths as I do, as I have almost all of my life, I avoided anything that was redolent of demonic/angelic until shortly before joining this forum in 2013, when after finding the website by chance, I joined for 3 reasons:
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I wanted to be able to bridge the Divine Paradox, which btw is in explained the Kybalion and will cover almost every paradox you meet in magick, and I succeeded in that task last summer, praise be to the All for that
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I wanted to be able to work with those angelic/demonic beings on my own terms, and the material then available as newsletters and articles (which was much less than now, where there are hundreds of hours of YouTube videos alone) indicated the way E.A. taught was a good route
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it looked like fun.
If your goal here is to understand things whilst retaining your framework of belief, based I believe on experience not dogma, then you will continue to see proof of what you believe to be true.
I don;t recall if I linked you to this but give it a go, it’s mercifully brief to read and will explain a lot of things, I had no such head-start at your age so I had to try and figure a lot of this out by myself:
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According to the Law Of Attraction, it’s a possibility.
Evil is - within your anticipation - as evil does - of how the spirit act according to your anticipation.
This topic is within spirit psychology, which is both simple and complicated, depending on the basis of communication.
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You did. I got about half way through. Need to finish it soon.
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It’s interesting how often the topic of a “Great War” pops up on magick forums.
Nearly on every single magick related forum I knew of, had this topic.
Makes me think what is it that makes individuals believe in something like that.
Perhaps, for some, it is as Michael said - a metaphor for technically opposing forces, that are actually complementary at the end (which actually resonates with me the most). Perhaps, for some, it is their own perceptions and thinking that other entities are evil, that make the entities they work with say the others are evil.
Perhaps, for some, it is just looking for something “more”. Perhaps, for some, there is actually some truth to it, and there really is some kind of a “grudge”.
Who knows, but it is interesting.
Though, again, what Michael said resonates the most with me.
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I’m not sure I would take that literally. I’m a Chaote so I veiw the world as an illusion of Order being worn as a veil by Chaos. Beings that illustrate Order are beings that represent both opposites of Chaos. In the Daoist/Chinese sense, Yin and Yang separated from a formless mass of energy, and can rearrange themselves back into Chaos. I also have little reason to literally believe in stories such as Michael fighting Satan or Ragnarok literally happening in full detail of the sagas. To me they are stories of the world with spirits as the characters and actions as metaphors. They are from man’s mind, not the world. This is admittedly different from how you may personally perceive the terminology but this is the reason why I’m comfortable working with angels and demons, creators and destroyers, the sun and moon. Although I personally emphasize the dark aspects, it is darkness that allows light to exist, so why not know a bit about that other side? In my opinion that’s like trying to understand hate without understanding love also. They are polar opposites but come from the same reaction; desire. Desire to destroy/prevent or preserve/create. Literally the only difference is motive.
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That was a good book
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The only issue with taking a side in my opinion is that you are not reaching ascent whatsoever IF that is a goal of yours. True ascent deems the ascended one de-polarised in the middle pillar. As you see in many of the ancient drawings, I will use the horned god as an example because I believe we are all familiar with that one, has the genitals of both male and female as a symbolic representation of equilibrium. Choosing a side if good or evil; Light or Dark; Angel or Demon; leaves you unbalanced within yourself. Now if you seek just physic ability and natural phenomenon at your will then kudos, go for it. But if anyone here is seeking true mastery of the universe and unlocking the key to rising into yourself, you cannot be drawn to sides.
Angels are very de-polarised which can illustrate their “natural” riddle there. Every single aspect of the universe, which is what the occult technically unveils, is that in order for life to exist, there must be a polar opposite of literally everything, which is what the ying and the yang represent. Why everything created is in symmetry and why everything down to the molecular level is geometrically split in half mirroring its opposite side. Up and down, open and close, light and dark, laugh and cry, and so on… The ascended masters are who they are because they mastered this ideal 10 fold.
So again, if people are looking for just powers, choose a side and let them feed you their power. But if you want the power of the divine universe, to harness the power of the elements of the physical and to know you can control your very soul upon death after leaving this plane if you CHOOSE to do so, you must accept the fact that being simply light or dark, or being at war in the end will ultimately just make you weaker by having the power of only 1 and not all
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I’ll say this is definitely not the case. The only angel who’s ever sneered at a fallen was Uriel, and he’s an ass. You’re twisting it because you don’t like the answer. That’s the point. You don’t understand it, so you twist it so you can keep your paradigms. Just accept that you have to work harder to grasp this one.
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@vladzz I don’t care about attitude. The point is that sneering or not he would STILL DO IT. It doesn’t matter if it’s because of arrogance or because “that’s their nature”. Whatever the given reason: “natural cycle” or whatever else it’s still an act of war. I couldn’t care less if he thinks it’s a “mandatory natural cycle”. If it is, and I don’t believe it is, we will stop it. I am here to ensure that no matter what happens that these beings will never again be pushed from this world. It’s a sworn myself to. To be the anchor and gateway that keeps these forces of darkness in this world. Permanently. Forever.
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Still incorrect.
So when a lion kills and eats a gazele, it’s an act of war?
No, my friend, it’s not what he thinks, it’s true. Try harder to grasp this one. It’s called a war so you can understand it better, but it’s more like continuous coups in a government, though that’s still a bad analogy. Just try harder to grasp this one.
This is one of the special cases where what you believe doesn’t matter. Nature will happen. It’s not just, it’s not good, but it’s honest.
They never were. They were pushed from the fictitious heaven, and who would want to be there, anyway??
No one’s stopping you. There’s always a counterbalance, though. Just a matter of how nature works
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“MICHAEL” has come up for me a lot lately. Heck, there is a hurricane with the same name headed this way now.
What was stated about indifference: it makes sense. Entities (what i call angels and demons) dont have the same human subjectivity or attachments that we do. And yet, i keep catching myself projecting a human ego onto them, just because I haven’t really gotten used to relating to another conscious being that isnt human and don’t have yet a blueprint for that carved firmly in my mind.
Anyone relate?
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Hello, i am quite new to this but i have asked some people about the angel/demons dychotomy, and the stories i have heard from practitioners imply that there is no real antagonism between most entities…These people have worked with both demons and angels and there were no bad consequences for them yet…However, i do think that it might be some disturbance if you break a close pact of loyalty you have with some entity…Personally, i am reluctant to work with demons and qliphotic energies due to my residual religious bias (i was raised in a catholyc background) which i asume will progresively lose as i advance in my magickal journey.
I think the best way for you to progress, is to keep invoking the archangels to get a most abarcative view and , why not, new gifts that you might have not discovered yet, power is not the only enjoyable gift we can have.
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Isn’t that the same mindset we seeked to get over when going away from the light, and calling out it’s dogma?
- in regards of your Evokation, it sounds very relatable.
In regards of your concerns,
again, Angel and Demon are more human terms then their own way of seeing the picture, for what i’ve seen.
In terms of working seperate from dogmatic pressure - that’s exactly why we sometimes go into completely differnt pantheons,
to be free from the general obligation our current enviorment pushes along with certain Names.
That, to be honest, sounds like an very sincere approach from Michael to you.
I wouldn’t step away from it, if i was you.
Sincerely,
¥’Berioth
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