Is Elubatel an angel or a demon?

Spirits, Evocation & Possession
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I was about to ask what’s wrong with Elubatel but after reading some posts here and on the internet, I realized this entity behaves like a demon.

There are reports of depression, ups and downs, anxiety, bad luck, suicidal thoughts after working Elubatel.

According to Damon Brand, this thing turns your life around in order for you to receive more wealth. It’s a harsh teacher.

It sounds like a demon to me. And I think it is bad idea to approach a demon like if it was an angel. All the opposite also true.

So what is it? Angel or demon?

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I don’t believe there’s a real distinction. Demon is a fake and vague term ford for a million different things by a million different people. “Fallen” angels are still angels. Higher beings can be either depending on whether they are on the Churches A list or not…

Here you are still dealing with very strong physic and mystic forces, and neither “side” care about you, neither will coddle you, you can call Michael and get into very hot water too, and “angels” are not all fluffy and safe… so it doesn’t matter.

Buyer beware. If you don’t want you life changed and are not ready to shift, don’t engage powerful forces before you understand what you’re asking for.

Try not to get too bogged down in the dogma generated since the middle ages, it’s largely bullshit.

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Ok :grinning: I just say ‘demon’ in plain, comon, colloquial terms. My personal sorting is ‘negative entities’, ‘positive entities’ and I distrust anything in between.

As far as I read about Elubatel, this thing seemingly has more negative attributes than positive. Therefore it falls into my no trust zone and I’m about to stop all my experimental workings with it.

According to NAP book by old frater and to Damon Brand, Elubatel is an angel. Is there any other original source of this thing being an angel?

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So, for entertainment purposes and meaning pretty much “boogieman”. Which is to say, shallow and meaningless. Got it.

Er, have you even read what the biblical angels are actually like? They’re not “positive” or on your side. They are scary and have to tell people they won’t hurt them to get them to listen. It was an angel “god” sent to destroy sodom and gomorah, it was an angel that slew all the firstborns in some city or other in retribution.

They’re not cute baby faced things off Christmas cards.

There’s no reason to think that any angel, including Elubatel is not an angel just because it’s not positive enough for you. That is not the way to look at angels.

Try this it might help you get oriented in what these really are, and they’re not “nice”.

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Elubatel is an angel, but as Jareth Tempest says in his book, omnipotence is not “safe.” It will shake up your life.

By the way, if you make your self worthy of the wealth Elubatel brings, there are no negative effects. However, if your life is not worthy (worth in this context meaning that there is space in your life for the wealth to flow) then it has to be made worthy, which generally means throwing you out of your comfort zone kicking and screaming.

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I don’t believe in this part of the myth, sorry.

The reason I started to experimenting with what we call ‘angels’ is because as a bad medium I have perceived positive entities several times.

I can’t tell for sure that they were angels but they’d fall in the the classic description of ‘angels’. One of them being the most powerful spiritual being I’ve ever encounter in all my life. It was ginormous.

I also can perceive negativity and positivity and these things were 100% positive. Not the kind of thing that would f-you up. Unless the Boss order so, like in the Old Testament, I guess.

Also for the record, Aleister Crowley stated that there is no danger whatsoever when working with angels. I think this arose from a discussion about messing with future karma when working with angels.

And going back to Elubatel, I’m tracking it down to ‘The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses’ by Johann Scheibel. But this only takes us to 1849.

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It depends on the demon. Those of the Goetia are said to be “fallen” angels in the mythology of Solomon so they can be actually be evoked using angelic methods.

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I don’t think an angel would do that unless ordered to do so. Just my personal beliving. :grinning:

If I’m not wrong, the concept of ‘angel of omnipotence’ originally came from Johann Scheibel’s book, right? (BTW, I experimented with one of the seals on this book with zero noticeable results so far)

A question for all of you regarding Elubatel and other entities: Do you think that modern authors like Brand and others are creating egregors from names in old grimoires? Because this could work.

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Well, personal beliefs aside, this is not true at all. Any experience with real angels proves otherwise.

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Ok :smiley: I have no experience with Goetia work but I guess a demon would like to be treated like a full appointed angel. I also presume that an angel is not going to appreciate to be treated like a demon. I haven’t tried.

A note: the concept of fallen angel is just an invention of 2th century Christians. There isn’t a single verse on the Bible talking about angels falling from anywhere :smiley: Only one phrase with a very vague and inconclusive interpretation.

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Maybe they were no angels. When it comes to Elubatel, it is not clear what it is, yet.

I’ve been experimenting with angels for a while with zero drawbacks so far. Also zero results, as usual, to be honest. I’m a bad evocator, too.

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I’ve been working deeply with angels for the last three years. i know an angel when I see one. Just because you don’t want to believe it, doesn’t mean it is not true. You seem to hold pretty tightly to your own biases and like to ignore anything that doesn’t fit your own narrow view. :man_shrugging:

Any spirit can cause disruption, not just demons. Gods and angels can do so as well. Disruption does not have to equate with negative, though.

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Michel Belanger allows the classification of “demon” only if the being has shown to be actively malevolent. I think this modern classification is more useful than the middle ages one and helps distinguish benevolent higher level beings from ones that may mean you harm. I think these two classes are useful to distinguish. From a non-dual perspective, it might be difficult to comprehend.

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That’s still super vague though. A malevolent being can be a ghost, a fae, residual energy, an ET, an aspect of yourself, a parasite, a low level astral creature… a… me :slight_smile: , and these all take different ways to communicate with them and different effort levels to deal with as they gave different agendas, cultures and backgrounds.

I like Belanger but this seems unhelpful and really just incredibly lazy. It’s like lumping people into a box so you can dehumanize them and not bother to understand the wherefore of what the conflict is, just dismiss them as ‘demon’, lay the whole problem on them and not take any responsibility for being part of the conflict yourself.

My argument isn’t that angels and demons are different, it’s that demon is a bad term. And so is angel in my mind but at least that’s a lot more specific. No ghost of an alcoholic is going to get called angel in a hurry. But it’s malevolent and a spirit, but it’s not a demon.

The entities of the Goetia are not “demons”, most are Djinn (a kind of fae) and some imo are ETs. All demon means is they were entities the canaanites and late rhe church don’t like, which is everybody.

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3 posts were split to a new topic: Side conversation

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Could you please describe them to me?

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For anyone having problems with Elubatel: Elubatel appears listed as an angel for the first time in a 19th century grimoire, “The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses” by Johann Scheibel, published in 1849. I can’t find any older reference.

This grimoire claims to be two lost or hidden books of the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible. The Tanakah was completed in 450 BCE, so this 2 books were hidden allegedly for 2299 years, if you want to believe it. Note that there isn’t a single surviving bound book older than 4th century.

In the grimoire there is just a call and dismissal for Elubatel.

I happen to have experimented with this grimoire to some extent because I wanted to do an experimental consecration.

So I consecrated one of the seals that I still have in my pocket right now. It didn’t yield any noticeable result but it didn’t backfire either.

One of the possible reasons why Elubatel is f-you up could be because it is not an actual angel but an egregore. An undefined and out of control egregore, used as a collective thoughtform since 1849.

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They were first mentioned in the 6th and 7th book of Moses. However, I believe only three were named. The NAP book in the 70s made Elubatel a household name.

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What do you mean? 3 angels of omnipotence?

This is exactly what the 6th & 7th says about Elubatel;

Here the three angels of omnip­otence will be called up to drive forth the monsters of hell, namely:

Elubatel, Ebuhuel Atuesuel!

Each name must be repeated three times.

DISMISSAL.

→ I beseech and conjure thee, angel Elubatel, conduct N. N. from my presence.

Each angel’s name must be called three times toward the four quarters of the earth, and three times must be blown with, the horn.

NAP features an incantation for success. This one:

In all my undertakings henceforward I conjure and command Thee, mighty ELUBATEL, to protect me, bear me up and carry me forward to the pinnacle of success.

Thou shalt give me clarity of mind to confound my opposers; Thou shalt bend the Laws of the Cosmos to my and Thy will, bringing each and everyone of my desires to pass. I shall be enwrapped in Thy faultless Powers, and tread ever higher to that glittering peak which I covet.

Hear this, and answer my call: AH-NAH-FAX-EE-TONE which Aaron heard and spoke. Thou shalt guide me to success. So mote it be.

NAP requires to involve angel Arzel first through a gnostic relaxation. Arzel is presented as an angel of intitiations, an aid in all your ventures. However, in Abrahamic religions, it is the angel of death, no less.

Maybe the author had something to do with Masonry. It sounds like one those masonic initiation rites where your old self has to die before you can achieve illumination.

BTW, those NAP Hebrew words are Psalms, right?

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Azrael is the angel of death in Judaic myth, not Arzel. Arzel is generally considered by magicians to be an aspect of the archangel Raziel.

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