This is a stub to move a debate to from another topic:
Sorry but that’s just not true, there are measurable effects on the brain from “normal” use of porn, there are many studies on this. NoFap isn’t just about masturbation, it’s about the way porn tricks and damages the brain.
Masturbation without porn and without craving for the last bit of porn you saw is going to be dramatically different to the kind many people engage in, which is harmful in most other areas of life as well, so it makes sense it would be with magick.
It has nothing to do with Christianity, nothing like sissy hypnosis or rosebud porn even existed back then. Porn is becoming warped as well and steered down very definite routes, for example almost all femdom porn now is actually cuckold porn, with chastity devices and even castration being promoted. 
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im not really denying porns affect on the brain. I’m denying its affect on ones magickal results
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But then the issue would be do these brain changes affect magick, and where they are widely experienced to be negative with regards to (for example) self-respect and motivation etc., do these things affect magick. It’s probably going to be on a continuum like most things in life.
Aside from brain changes from use of porn, if sex MAGICK is a thing that works (and it is, and does), that indicates the raising of sexual energy affects the energetic body in a manner that can affect one’s magick.
From personal experience, when I was carrying my demonic Child (links) I was told to avoid ALL sexual interaction, even looking at attractive men, because that would raise some energy in the chakra (energy centre) that my Child’s spirit was gestating in.
So that’s not theoretical and it was (no pun intended) REALLY hard, because our whole world is plastered with images desgined to raise sexual interest.
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Yeah for me there’s no magick disruption if I do it or not it’s kind of all the same for me. Of course at some point I do want to dip into sex magick.
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That still doesn’t really indicate to me that masturbation cripples magick. All that says to me is that sexual energy can be used, among many many other methods, to produce results in certain circumstances…as seen in sex magick, or your case in using that energy to create your demonic child. But did that same entity who told you to avoid all sexual interaction for the sake of that one operation…did it also tell you to continue this strict celibacy practise after the child was birthed, else all your magickal results would wither on the vine?
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Not but I am not claiming it does (at all!), just that NoFap isn’t about a resurgence of puritanism, it’s a modern problem requiring a modern solution.
No, BUT I don’t have any mental health problems and nor is sex or masturbation consuming my life as it does for some people. Controlling one’s energy and appetites is generally on the continuum of things that build personal power, both willpower and actinodic power within the body.
Being a slave to these things or in constant search of a high from them usually depletes people’s energy in another area. But that’s a different thing to claiming a single hand-shandy is going to forever make you unable to magick.
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Perhaps, perhaps. But this brings me back to one of the rebuttals i posited earlier…and that is, what about Crowley? I’m not sure if there was ever a man in the occult more lusty and sex crazed. And yet he still was able to perform magick, even forming his own order. If his level of depravity didn’t cripple his magickal career…it seems like the threshold is pretty high when it comes to sex and masturbation being a problem
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We have to consider if these changes even occur in a well trained magician in the first place. The intensive mental training and discipline definitely rewires the brain to function far differently from the normal human brain and can provide exquisite levels of control over the physical body and mental psychology that spits right in the face of modern ‘science’. So long as self control and discipline is retained such changes can be guided, utilized, or even canceled out all together I would say based on the drastic differences in my own life and others I have seen progress down these paths.
Some of the greatest magicians in history were by our standards very lecherous and debased people at times yet were able to control these responses and work extremely powerful magick. What those studies don’t take into account is that those are average people which have very little self discipline or control over their minds and bodies so of course they are going to have far more vulnerabilities.
And as to the types of porn that existed back then rest assured mind fuckery was a very big thing back then just as it is today. Taking a look at all the love and domination spells from various time periods some of which are quite questionable in how it effects the minds and bodies of others changing them to the whims of the magician. Some of the stuff we have today is pretty fucking tame in comparison. You don’t see as many magicians with harems and sex cults but they certainly do exist and always have. The issue with it being mainstream is two fold as it both celebrates the pleasures of the flesh but also its vices which are often one and the same switching depending on use and by who is viewing or participating.
If someone is truly worried about this then practice of biofeedback and control and a few months discipline to develop it and learning to channel emotional and physical states and stimulus to completely unrelated goals will show how much this is true. Question is do people want to irk out the little extra bits of flexibility and mental perfection. For instance there are techniques to harvest energy from videos and images in fact some magicians such as Uncle Chuckie mention such though he applies it more to mass murder for the source it shows energy can be harvested and transmuted from such things and videos to your own purposes. There is no reason you cannot cycle your own energy and harvest and transmute extra energy to add to yours in the process. It is all about technique and application.
I just notice the further one goes along the further we tend to go from the normal masses in terms of what affects us and what can be utilized. In time all things become a potential tool or opportunity.
Going to leave this unedited because it took me a while to type and i don’t want to edit becuase even more time and catch up then.
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He channelled his vast sex energy into his magick. I’m not arguing a case of sex VERSUS magick, far from it!
Sex energy is powerful, wasting it mindlessly fapping to porn that degrades all involved is likely to alter one’s self-respect and personal power, raising sex energy and putting it to magickal use is likely to boost the magick (and be fun).
But just like smoking some weed and thinking about “wouldn’t it be nice if we all got along” does not MAKE one a shaman, fapping to vaguely spiritual ideas or showering sigils in semen doesn’t = sex magick. It’s about focus.
Yeah but that is different to the way porn attacks the person watching it and tries to fuck with them, you support my case that there is something almost vampiric about modern porn, it offers pleasure but delivers slavery to a lot of people (and I’m not talking about consensual BDSM stuff).
It doesn’t put the person in the same position as the mage of old doing a binding spell, it makes them the victim, binding him (or her) and then directing the mind along very specific paths.
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It is both a possible tool to harness in using it to feed off extra energy and a shackle and vice. This is true for everything even eating a regular meal. It just depends on the person and how they choose to interact. People already give their free will away and always have up until the point they become self aware. This is nothing new. Only the guises this takes on have changed.
To focus and obsess over the shackle puts you at its mercy instead of reforging and harnessing it. My main issue with this is mostly people focus and put themselves at the mercy of the lesser aspects instead of seeing the opportunity to turn a tool of control into a means to gain more energy for themselves and train their own self control and will. This is not just with porn but with all things from religion to economics etc.
In the end fuck the system and use it for yourself.
If one lacks the control they will always be slaves even if of their own devices imprisoning themselves in fear of the influence of others.
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Well then it’s a good job I’m not suggesting people do this, however, it is also a reality that a lot of people are being harmed by porn and it is entirely possible, realistic, and healthy, to eliminate porn from one’s life.
The extent and extremes of porn available now within seconds vastly exceed anything humans had access to before, to claim that because people did love spells in the past that was the same is almost surreally irrelevant!
Yeah, the entrapments have become more attractive, decades of meticulous lab study into controlling the mind have been brought to bear against people just looking for a bit of fun or the illusion of companionship, and the whole sick setup is being white-knighted by people who still think old-school puritanism is any kind of threat.
You’re just making my poiint for me that porn is a tool of control. Most people who use it have no idea this is even an issue, and are lulled back to sleep by a society that acts like missing out on a possible orgasm is a human-rights abuse right up there with genocide.
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How is this different then the control used in the past? It is not only the form it takes is different fir a materialistic society. The more spiritual societies of the past had the same levels of control researched and refined to similar perfection to operate along the same means that society would have focused on such as religion, beliefs, spiritual practice to keep the common masses under control until individuals could evolve and function independently. It is the same cycle and nothing has changed except the shiny exterior.
People that are harmed have in the end chosen that position and are as capable of ending it if they take their will into their own hands and start applying it. Perhaps they don’t escape in one lifetime sure but they take those lessons on and evolve as a whole until they are able to take control. Human existence is just a split second next to the totality of our evolution so the trials of pain and suffering teach us just as much as the joy and love if not more as it shows our flaws and the pitfalls we need to correct and evolve past.
Everything is a web of choices and consequences and everyone has a choice and everyone can change their fate no matter how far along they have fallen but few choose to do so and even fewer wish to continue when they find out it might take more than one lifetime. Yet deep down inside we all realize it is possible and that a single life is just a stepping stone to grow.
Even with outside help if the person doesn’t choose. nothing will change.
Harsh and possibly cold and heartless as this seems its just the way things are until people change it for themselves and stop choosing to be subject to the sufferings of existence and instead strive to partake the gifts that are waiting.
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You made the point that porn is akin to magick of the past, which seems to be implying a magician can be a user of porn and not be bound, while admitting porn binds people in.
Porn is a control mechanism.
But they didn’t have a little device in their hand 24/7 that had their addictive brainwash of choice ready to be piped in with supportive comments by a community of fellow addicts.
Do you think most alcoholics could quit easily if they had to carry an open bottle of their beverage of choice round with them 24/7? Or that someone could quit any addiction when they carry it on hand in the same way?
One of the reasons iconography was used in churches was the paucity of representations of human beings in a pre-print and pre-screen world.
Faces have power, it consumes a lot of processing power in the brain when we see a face, and we’re always looking for new faces to process (hence pareidolia).
The controlling and dominating effects of porn on the smartphones most people of any age are constantly attached to makes any control mechanism of the past look slapdash.
Once someone has started to get hooked and drawn down the carefully-planned progressions of their specific type of imagery, they are going to have a far harder time breaking away than someone in 1962 when the best it got was reels of film or printed magazines.
No, addicting people to a thing that rewires their brain and telling them they’re brave, canny, modern, and living the good life if they keep using is the opposite of giving people information on the effects in advance and before they start getting drawn into it.
Lies negate informed consent.
The amount of calculation that goes into getting people addicted to anything, be it cigarettes, opiates, booze, fast-food, or porn, the vast marketing budgets and endless tests to increase the addictive rate and speed with which they start to control the user all prove that the “it’s free will” argument is bunk,
No, it doesn’t seem to be any of those things, it seems naïve and maybe somewhat idealistic.
And above all, completely uniniformed as to the malleability of the human mind and the extent to which money is poured into attempts to make already-addicting things even more available, appealing, and compelling, while totally denying this is the intent.
My main contention to go back to the OP is that there is no way this is simple - yes masturbation is always in all cases completely good, or no it’s always in all cases completely harmful.
Porn and 24/7 access to it have completely changed the picture and placed an awful lot of people under a very powerful mechanism of control, that strips them of free will by making cessation of use a real internal battle.
Whatever someone is doing, they need to be aware that sex, time, and attention are energy, and watch where that energy is drawn to, whether they are starting to use more than they intended, and how the results are panning out from then if they strip away justifications like “I am going through a tough time, I deserve it, I have no other outlets” etc.
Sex power, both lustful and generative, is one of the root aspects of magickal power and knowing where it’s going and why, and who benefits, is the main issue here.
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IF this was true then no one could ever break any addiction.
I will just say your arguments seem to the same arguments that limit the freedom of others for their own greater good. Apparently it is idealistic to see the world as survival of the fittest where the weak are consumed until they gain the strength to take power of their own.
You forget that times have changed to a materialistic society that relies on technology where before thought and ideology would have been a means of conveyance to entrap belief. The reach would have been about the same though not having lived in those times it hard to see from just the outset until you notice just how much influence your own waves of thought can have constantly over others and how such mental programming can spread without technology even but just personal contact.
Nonetheless I don’t see this going anywhere as we are both pretty solid and against each other on these points of view. We have both said our part and others can judge who has more merit to them as they wish.
First question:
are people fully informed in advance that pornography is highly addictive to many people and that these people report decreased ability to relate to the other sex, decreased self-respect, depression, and various other markers of harm? Are they warned about this BEFORE being exposed to it?
If YES, they would indeed be making a free-will choice and responsible to at least some degree for that choice.
However they are NOT informed in this manner, instead it’s presented as a fun, life-enhancing recreational activity, which is a lie, and told there will be no negative consequences, also a lie.
See: the history of cigarette marketing, and the lengthy denials companies enaged in. Also the recent opiate scandal where manufacturers knew their product was addicting people, and lied to medical professionals about this.
Second question: is the life of someone who’s been addicted to, and then ceased using, any addictive product, always totally comparable to the freedom experienced by a person who never got addicted?
The existence of the 12-step movement alone (which I’m not a huge fan of, but it works for some people) suggests addiction remains haunting a person in some form long after they cease consuming whatever they’re hooked on.
So the argument that one can get addicted, and then stop, and no harm done, is patently inaccurate, bordering on fanciful.
I posted why magicians are IMO highly likely to get addicted to various things here.
Porn doesn’t grow out of the earth or fall from the sky, it’s manufactured and promoted to people, research and money poured into finding what will draw people in and what leaves them cold, and most people encounter it and begin using it before they’re old enough to give informed consent.
It’s idealistic to think that porn is a wonderful spontaneous phenomenon of which all people may freely sample in any amount and then just walk away without consequences.
It’s the same argument as saying all things are equal, that a banana is equal in terms of effects to a needleful of heroin and that people can rationally indulge in both for as long as they like, and then just stop with no effects.
Evidence says otherwise, and we can all claim to be exceptional but my original point was that NoFap isn’t about puritanism, it is addressing a specific problem large numbers of people are having with online porn. 
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It’s all about the feelings you Ascociate with it.
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Yes indeed porn is extremely important!!! There is nothing better and faster than charging a sigil by watching a good porn. Put the sigil on the screen and just follow the flow. 
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Pro porn is by design to dehumanize people. Just two normies fucking in their own bedroom is hot, and not the same as a full set and paid actors.
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Yo
I’m sort of split on this one. (Here’s the obligatory Chaote part)
I think that if it matters to you it matters. Though I have observed a massive change in my life for the better when I made a pact for myself that I could only ejaculate with a woman or within a ritual. Energetically speaking as well as a general sense of dignity.
All of the NoFap neurobiology applies and it’s really really hard for me to diferentiate between biochemistry induced conciousness and spiritual changes. SO many of my results come from being a human guniea pig. It matters to me.
That said, I’ve seen people who can down 10 shots of Jameson and not feel a thing. At all. No tolerance, just a stalwart conciousness. They can’t get high from 3 bong rips either. Stability. Over stability.
Then there’s one of my girls who ends up on the floor wrapped in a blanket seeing visuals that belong in a kalidescope from one tab of acid because the world is overwhelming to her even when she’s completely sober (something so cute about that… Can’t explain why.)
Different currents of energy have different rules and I hate to be this guy on a forum but it comes down to “Does it matter to you?”
I had this weird phenomenon when I was a mormon teen. If I jacked it, I’d have a terrible day the next day. I’d feel out of myself and I’d nearly get into fights at school because people would want to start shit while I’m focused on something else. Could be a self fulfilling prophecy, yet when I switched gears I went from invisible to having to not talk about what actually goes on in my dating life because it sounds like I’m just talking big.
I didn’t try to set an intention for it, it happened because I got extremely busy and had a girlfriend. Didn’t have time for pocket pool. After a while I’d edge a bit before bed when she wasn’t over (and then I’d later manifest the dopplegangers of Stella Cox, and several other girls I looked at the time… Maybe a different thread on that one haha)
But I’d never climax without a woman or a magickal reason to. I can’t imagine doing it any other way now. There’s no “relationship” with it (like a drug sort of) I just set it down and don’t really care about picking it back up.
I think it has something innate to it, yet I also believe in the power of clear intention and with the right “agreements” in place one could make it irrelevant.
Also, women likely don’t have any issues with it at all. Given that both genders use the same dopamine I think it might be a fundamental difference in how we express and interact with will.
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