@Reiki_healer333 That got extremely unsvoury and crossed the line, please remember it’s against the rules of this forum to discuss physical violence especially to minors.
So the discussion is ostensibly about whether or not entities called “demons” might have morals.
So far you have only looked at the actions of humans and I don’t see why what the criminally insane say should be believed.
IME it very much depends on the entity. Some are as psychopathic as any human, and some will refuse work that doesn’t align with their values. So say ALL “demons” do X is, as all sweeping generalizations usually are, intellectually lazy and always a target for exceptions to disprove.
Under the concept that there’s no such thing as external entities and it’s all in our minds, it really depends on the will of the operator, and if the operator is immoral, the working can be successfully immoral.
IMO the buck stops with the operator. Personal responsibility matters more than any random “demon”. The human has free will, and is the only one able and who should take responsibility. It doesn’t even matter if the entity has morals, if it does, the human will find another that doesn’t anyway.
This may be why no-one calls Santa Claus to cause sickness or death by magick - they’d be off the Christmas list.
Lets say I go outside and someone steps on my toes by accident and apologizes. Lets say I go home and invoke Lucifer and ask for his help in killing that person, bringing a debilitating sickness upon his child and have something horrible happen to his wife.
I dont think Lucifer would help me with that.
Personally I think that if you did the ritual right and had the intent to back it, I’m sure he would. A death curse may be far fetched but death curses in general can take effort, I’d wager most demons would help you with that though. They may not approve and might even advise against it but at the end of the day, a lot of people use magick for terrible ends and it works. I think even if they disagree they’d either refuse or help but also let you face the consequences if any. At best, they can look beyond any moral compass and still enact the practitioner’s will akin to a mercenary.
I don’t disagree but again, “they” is a broad brush and not all entities are the same. They’re not a monolith. Some don’t care, some like it, some will refuse. It depends a lot on the practitioner and their energy and what they’re really calling to apply that energy. All is not as it seems and most people don’t account for that.
That and, human free will Is the golden rule. If the mage is simply using the idea of an entity as a hook to give themselves permission to move they energy a given way, there’s nothing an entity can do about it. They win have the names taken in vain and all they can do is watch. Unless another human joins and wins a barker of wills.
I think humans like to scapegoat a lot. It’s nothing but mental gymnastics to not have to feel painful emotions, it’s fake, but it works.
It’s my opinion that humans are the most pencil, and therefore the most brilliant but can be the most evil creatures in the universe. This is why we are mind wiped and blinded. We’re simply too nasty not to disable until we can develop out of it and handle real power respinsibly. It’s in nobodies interests to let emotional humans do just anything out the gate.
EVERYTHING immoral we blame “demons” for, is human projection. We know not what we do.
Because if we did, guess who could easily control every demon to do the right thing? Us.
But we don’t even control or understand ourselves, and some of us enjoy it that way, we apply immoral, usurous magick all the time. This planet could be heaven, we make it the way it is. We make our own hell and we have nobody else to blame for that.
I’d really attribute more materialist and cultural causes for MS-13 and pdf files. One way to put it - a certain fixed percentage of men across the globe have such pulls, most in first and even third world countries have moral structures and successes in their lives to where they’d have too much to lose (both self-respect and that of family and friends) whereas people with much less to lose, and even an organization that doesn’t culturally prohibit it, that ends up getting weaponized rather than suppressed. Figure that with gangs much of what they’re doing is psychological warfare for power over their territory. Those from stable law-abiding societies generally would uphold at least some of the values, like not bothering kids, people from places where that’s thrashed - not always so much although we also need to add that we’re selecting for the kinds of people who’d voluntarily join such gangs meaning it’s second and third order outliers, particularly people with enough dark tetrad traits that they can do things like that without moral revulsion.
i have recently learned that many still practice child infant sacrifice in india, and that is as an offering to the devas, the supposed good guys and the morally righteous. somehow, those gods are still ok with it. This also ties in to what you mentioned about how ancient iran influenced judaism, and how zoroastrianism is also is closely related to hinduism, even the religion that supposedly predates it. If these really are the same beings, then we can only assume they are capable of both extreme good, and extreme evil
Oh, I’m sorry, did the Devas show up to put guns to people’s heads to make them do that?
Nope. Again you blame spirits for the actions of humans. This says nothing about what the devas think about it.
I can’t say it too many times: the humans are the creator beings here, it’s their responsibility.
Blaming other beings for your choices doesn’t make it their fault. It’s yours. The buck stops with you.
Every single human religion turns truth into dogma and eventually twists the spiritual for human evil. It gets used as an excuse for atrocities, This is why I despise religions as a whole, they allow humans to pretend they’re not responsible. But they still are.
As above, so below. There are immoral humans, humans ARE spirits therefore there are immoral spirits. Of course there are, I’ve met some. But not all of them are. And not every entity some random dogmatic religion labels as “demon” is going to be immoral. “the devil made me do it” - that’s scapegoating and scapegoating is also immoral. So don’t do it if you don’t want to be immoral yourself.
choosing to still help these humans and give them things clearly shows a lack of caring. there is no way around that. would you help them and give them money or status? no? because you care?
I don’t assume anything about this situation, I don’t assume they got helped or didn’t. I think it’s a shitty example of why “demons” or in this case “devas” are automatically always immoral.
Did you bother to ASK any of these devas what they thought about it? Did you verify that the results was due to them anyway? Or were they the magick of the humans believing in it manifesting because, as I have explained, humans are creator beings and don’t need devas to do work for them?
You make way to many assumptions for this to be sensible.
when people ask on here to end anxiety or cure depression, they always get recommended a spirit to help them, because they are unable to do so for themselves. when most people talk about wealth magick, they mentioned that they got 100 dollars one time. do you seriously think most people are capable of such a massive project on their own?
Yes 100% I think they are usually doing it all on their own.
What they needed was to give themselves permission to access their power.
Here’s something you can try, if you’re upset and think these devas are immoral, any maybe they are, why are you standing by doing nothing if you feel atrocities are happening in your back yard?
You have all the tools to find out and if so stop it.
So here what you could do, you can evoke these devas, ask them if they understand what is happening, ask them if they are helping the perpertrators and if so, why.
If they tell you “yes I know and I help them because I don’t care, or, I like it” then you have an immoral deva, and you can command it to never help in that situation again.
Why do you have authority over the devas? Because you are human and you have free will, you are talking about other humans with free will, and it doesn’t get a choice. If it insists of staying the path, kill it. It’s a lesser entity and will pose no challenge. Destroying evil in self defense or the defense of the innocent is righteous and the universe will allow it.
You need to get over the idea of humans being weak, we’re so very not.
I think some do, Earl Andromalius doesn’t seem to like criminals.
but in general no I don’t think a lot of infernals care, what us humans do, they want us too fulfill our potential, for some that is through something society has deemed legal, for others it is doing what society has deemed illegal. So if you view law as a kind of morality, then no I don’t think most infernals care.
Legal and Illegal aren’t morality, it is rules society has made to function in the image it seems fit, but all cultures are different.
these spirits help us achieve what we want, wheter that is money, power, fame, stability, love, or crimes. All of these are just human ambitions and desires, wheter they are ultimately good or evil is up to you.
Welcome @Lordofthenight123 It is a rule of this forum for all new members to properly introduce themselves so PLEASE CLICK ON THE IMAGE BELOW and tell us about yourself and any experience you may have in magick, such as what you practice, how long you have practiced, areas of interest, etc.
There has been a lot of counter arguments and evidence in the scientific community that those rituals did not actually take place, and were rumors started by colonizers in order to make them look savage and make it easier to overthrow and rewrite history in the favor of the invaders, very common tactic.
I feel like to understand how I view this you would have to know a lot more about my personal gnosis, which is too off topic to explain in detail here. I will say though that I find Lilith to be a bad example for this personally, because I do not believe her to be a true demonic entity (or seperate entity) as the goetia and grimoire demons, but moreso a branch of the divine feminine renamed and repackaged that was “demonized” in the Abrahamic sense just like Venus/Lucifer. There is also an egregore born of the collective of “Lilith” and what she is believed to be by the masses, and these people (as with a lot of rituals) are actually calling upon their own power. To echo what Mulberry said, most of these things are projections of the practioner themselves and not whatever deity or spirit they are claiming it in the name of. The only way to really know is to ask these entities themselves, and even then are you talking to yourself? Is your bias influencing the divination? Then there are of course impostors and parasites as I already noted. Which can very convincingly trick people.
Meanwhile a lot of her lore also formed from the lilû Babylonian spirits, which I have personally called upon for fetus deletion so I am aware these spirits are capable of morally grey things. But Lilû are born of human spirits, which I find most truly evil and parasitic energy is.
“What they needed was to give themselves permission to access their power.”
why cant your spirits teach you to give yourself permission for your full powers? if you are claiming that it is even beyond them, then forgive me, because i find it impossible to take you seriously.
“you can evoke these devas”
surely, but what prevents it from lying? you people seem to have an undying trust in spirits, similar to a cult.
“Because you are human and you have free will, you are talking about other humans with free will, and it doesn’t get a choice.”
then why can they kill someone for you? if that human has free will, how can they alter their behaviour to make that person have sex with you?
“Destroying evil in self defense or the defense of the innocent is righteous and the universe will allow it.”
i recommend for you to study nature. i think we can all agree that there is a creator. lions kill other lion’s babies when a male is dominated, pelicans fly into random nests and peck at baby pelicans until they are dead. dolphins sexually violate seals. komodo dragons eat their prey alive. if creation has a moral compass, instead of being indifferent to evil, then i must say, it definetly fails at its self-given task.
How’s that impossible? Lucifer, Hecate, Raziel all of them are guiding me to access my full potential. Heck, there are even spirits that can give you Siddhis (magickal powers) if you’re not afraid or if you survive the experience (there are multiple death or psychosis related to the bad awakening of Kundalini). In Tantra there are the Yoginis, spirits who praise the Great Mother, who can grant you powers that go beyond the ordinary. And not only them, there are countless Ascended Masters, Angels and Demons who help you access your power. The attunements can help you access powers without needing direct evocation.
It’s not having undying trust, it’s just having enough skill to command or simply be respected by the spirits. There are countless methods to force or simply make gods and spirits tell you the truth… Kundalini Awakening, knowledge and conversation with your High Guardian Angel, words of power, having another deity to command or to oversee the ritual, etc…
Skepticism It’s good on the magical journey, but if you keep doubting just for the sake of doubting you won’t get very far. Evocation requires a degree of trust on both sides. If that’s the case, what about our reality? Bringing a little philosophy to this, what if our reality is just an illusion created by a Demiurge (a malin génie)… How can you go in your live without having absolute trust that what you live is real? “Cogito ergo sum”, “I think therefore I am”… So if you think and therefore you are, and in magic what is without so within, then you have to have confidence in your power and in your channeling of the spirits’ responses, for you are at the same time the antenna of the signal and the message analyzer.
You answered your question… Such is our freewill that we can make other people do our Will. We humans can overwrite the freewill of others if we want (and this involves several factors such as the target’s own Will). So I can send Dantalion to mess with some people because I’m giving the permission to him to do that, we are the masters of our reality… Most are just lazy to not want it, after all it would be “too much work” for some people, in addition to putting the responsibility on you.
I agree with you in this. That’s why I believe that not only us, but every being have a High “Angel”, Holy Spirit, Personal Daemon, Zetwal; whatever you call the Supreme Consciousness that mirrors the Creator. That Supreme Consciousness values the freewill of the body they’re inhabiting… I see them as front seat passengers, your soul (ghost, mind, ego) are the ones driving the car (»Your body) and that passenger is way more skillful than the motorist… However, this passenger is so used to getting from one car to another, meeting other drivers, that for it you are just another one. Since it doesn’t know much about you and you don’t know much about it, there’s nothing it can do to help your situation, it can’t just take the wheel of the car without your consent… That’s why one of the most important steps in magic is to unite the will of the driver with the help of the passenger, this is found in most major religions: Vodou, Christianity, Hinduism, Tantra, Egyptian, Arabic…
and forgive me @MrKeleton if i dont trust your evocation capability right away. there are people on here who have literally claimed to have evoked fictional eldritch horrors and anime characters
They can help, but they can’t do your inner work for you. Magick is a skill you have to practice. There are no free rides.
Nothing, then you use your discernment and connection to the universe and you will know of it feels true. This is also a skill you develop when you practice.
Nothing is hidden and there are no secrets to the subconscious. Lies are only available to those who are lesser.
If your intuition tells you they’re lying, trust yourself. In this case you can assume it’s a lesser entity and no longer worth your time. In fact it’s not a deva at that point. Devas are not lesser entities, they are higher beings who don’t lie. They don’t need to, because they dummy need your energy to survive. Which is also why they don’t need offerings.
This has been asked and explained many times on this forum. The short answer is. It becomes a battle of wills between the humans. You have to want to kill more than the person wants to live. This is why it’s very hard to kill with magick, even random peoples will and personal protections from ancestors etc easily overcome most death curses.
This one also usually doesn’t work unless there’s some existing attraction. If you paid any attention to the attraction threads, you’d notice a pattern: love spells fail the most, after death spells, out of any other kind of magick. Backlash and rebounds are common.
Again, you seem to be full of assumptions that if you actually read the experiences on this forum alone, just don’t bear out.