Well what version are you using? If youâre using the original with invocations to God, then no.
Who is the author of the grimoire youâre talking about?
Iâm not sure why you think thatâs the case. If anything, the self-deification of the left hand path would even more imply that you should resort to methods of force to make the spirits do your will if they are are deliberately being difficult. If I am a god, then âI refuseâ is not an acceptable answer to my demands from the lips of any being. The quite contrary attitude of many so-called âleft hand pathâ magicians is quite astonishing, really.
I donât believe it is necessary to force a spirit to do my will, if it is already his will. If it is his will, then he wonât have to be forced. A left handed path magician is in league with the powers of hell. They serve him because he serves them. It is, in a sense, mutualism.
Iâm not sure why you think thatâs the case. If anything, the self-deification of the left hand path would even more imply that you should resort to methods of force to make the spirits do your will if they are are deliberately being difficult. If I am a god, then âI refuseâ is not an acceptable answer to my demands from the lips of any being. The quite contrary attitude of many so-called âleft hand pathâ magicians is quite astonishing, really.[/quote]
Well it just isnât always going to be his will. It is absolutely necessary, on the other hand, to constrain and bind a difficult and disobedient spirit, because if you summon him and let him be a a little bastard when you find out he is one, heâs going to wreck you.
If it is his will, then he won't have to be forced.
Iâm not interested in his will. Just think about what you are saying for a moment. What you are suggesting is functionally no different to the approach of what you call the âright hand pathâ except with one set of beings exchanged with another.
A left handed path magician is in league with the powers of hell.
A left hand path magician is in league with whatever powers will serve his will. A left hand path magician will consider any and all methods available to him to accomplish that will.
Do you really think that the hierarchies of Hell are not built upon superiority and dominion? Do you think thatâs a relationship of mutual service between Lucifer and some lesser spirit in one of his subordinateâs legions?
They serve him because he serves them. It is, in a sense, mutualism.
Many spirits from the Goetia will NOT serve you, no matter how nice you are in return. It is simply in their nature to not answer requests or care for your grovelling. They are beings of power and force that only respond to power and force. No, if a Goetic spirit is being difficult despite my most amicable efforts, I will get its king, - or worse - to kick its fucking ass.
It is my goddamned human birthright to constrain the universe to my will by the mere fact that I am born able to do it.
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Yeah, the Four Kings âŚ
Tell me how often Paimon has not granted ones requests of him? Thatâs because heâs a great fucking mature and powerful spirit who knows the score and gets no petty kicks out of being a little brat who will only aid you whenever it takes his fancy.
To clarify: a fiery, Martian spirit is going to respond well to the fiery, Martian power within you. Savvy?
- Lucipher is the father of all devills, he may not be called, for he is in the depths of Hell, yet by him other devills may be coniured and bound, for all devills doe reverence and worship this devill Lucyfer and that with a kind of maiestie, they all obey him, for so hath God ordayned and appointed to them.
Binding Goetic spirits by the name of Lucifer? A passage expunged from Weyer and hence from the Ars Goetia
Well, what heâs saying is somewhat true. But you can get a demon to help you out with constraint. It is perfectly possible to have a mutually beneficial relationship.
Yet, it is equally possible that a demon could be very disobedient. You can either find another demon or constrain him by those greater in power. I personally prefer to have a relationship with my spirits, so itâs not much of problem for me.
Ok. For those of you I may have offended, please understand I am humble enough to know I need to learn. So, getting all bent out of shape because I may have different views than you do in the early stages of my development is completely unnecessary. But to answer a couple of you:
- Yes, I believe that there is a dark heiarchy. A house divided against itself can not stand. Even in the goetia it states that Paimon is âvery obedient to Lucifer.â This eludes to others being âsomewhatâ obedient to Lucifer.
- The grimoire I am referring to is Michael Fordâs Luciferian goetia.
- Iâm in a pact for a certain work in exchange for help by a high ranking demon. In this instance I donât believe constraining is necessary.
- Lastly, for the one who said he is a black magician, said Iâm groveling, and carried on with such an attitude of proud superiority, remember that when Satan argued with Michael about taking the body of Moses, the angel answered " The Lord rebuke You!" Never a railing proud word came off his lips. It would serve you well to adjust your pride.
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[quote=âEuoi, post:14, topic:3556â]Well, what heâs saying is somewhat true. But you can get a demon to help you out with constraint. It is perfectly possible to have a mutually beneficial relationship.
âŚI personally prefer to have a relationship with my spirits, so itâs not much of problem for me.[/quote]
^ This.
The Left-Hand Path doesnât automatically require compulsion in the same way that traditional RHP methods do, because beings classed as âdemonicâ are not usually seen as fallen angels whose sole task is to drag the unwary magician into hell by tempting him or her with earthly power and glory - this is true whether or not you believe in Luciferian concepts.
Of course all options are open to LHP mages - command, threaten, or torture included - but experience seems to show a lot of us that entities are willing, and even eager, to express their powers in our lives along the areas of interest theyâre famed for, without any kind of compulsion needed.
If I have a choice between having a willing ally, or a slave who only works with the whip on his back, Iâll choose the former, especially when I know he or she has as great an investment in the outcome as I do.
This goes even more so for working with godforms, nature spirits, spirits of the dead and so on, where finding the right alliances, and building relationships of mutual trust is paramount and also relatively easy to do.
There will always be beings so inimical to everything in our reality (the spiritual equivalent of ebola or plague) that a blasting rod or similar tool is necessary, but to treat every being, no matter how demonic, as though it were this hostile, intractable and virulent is a big mistake.
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Lady Eva, this is exactly where I was going with my âprideâ statement. You donât play whack-a-mole in a mine field. You donât play kick-the-can with a grenade. Thank you, once again, for clarity.
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Youâee using Fordâs Goetia?
Well then, feel free to switch out as long as it fits in with Luciferian paradigm. If you feel uncomfortable with Fordâs retainment of the God names, change them for those high up in the demonic hierarchy.
The altar isnât a point of manifestation. The triangle is s place where the demon can definitively manifest. Think of it as putting in a door in an open space. Without it, he can come up anywhere, with it, youâll know exactly where the spirit is going to manifest.
[quote=âEuoi, post:18, topic:3556â]Youâee using Fordâs Goetia?
Well then, feel free to switch out as long as it fits in with Luciferian paradigm. If you feel uncomfortable with Fordâs retainment of the God names, change them for those high up in the demonic hierarchy.
The altar isnât a point of manifestation. The triangle is s place where the demon can definitively manifest. Think of it as putting in a door in an open space. Without it, he can come up anywhere, with it, youâll know exactly where the spirit is going to manifest.[/quote]
Thank you. That answers my question.
And if you or anyone else wants to play with some UPG of mine developed from working with demons in recent months, try a six-sided (hexagonal) piece of thick black board or black-painted wood in place of a triangle - do NOT be tempted 
to draw in a Star of David inside it, you want the solid shape with no markings or names.
Like this, straight side (not angled point) facing towards you, unless youâre guided to do it differently:
You can place it on the ground, a table, whateverâs relevant with your set-up, but in this method Iâve been told to not use any other symbols that may impact upon it (so, donât place it on a circle of godnames like a traditional goetic circle, or on a cloth that has any symbols of any kind) - itâs a standalone piece that contains its own cosmogony.
Iâve been told demons will find this particularly welcoming for those of us who donât default to constraining them, but usual disclaimers apply that this is my UPG only - Iâm sharing it in case you find the triangle idea still too redolent of methods you donât like.
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[quote=âLady Eva, post:20, topic:3556â]And if you or anyone else wants to play with some UPG of mine developed from working with demons in recent months, try a six-sided (hexagonal) piece of thick black board or black-painted wood in place of a triangle - do NOT be tempted to draw in a Star of David inside it, you want the solid shape with no markings or names.
Like this, straight side (not angled point) facing towards you, unless youâre guided to do it differently:
You can place it on the ground, a table, whateverâs relevant with your set-up, but in this method Iâve been told to not use any other symbols that may impact upon it (so, donât place it on a circle of godnames like a traditional goetic circle, or on a cloth that has any symbols of any kind) - itâs a standalone piece that contains its own cosmogony.
Iâve been told demons will find this particularly welcoming for those of us who donât default to constraining them, but usual disclaimers apply that this is my UPG only - Iâm sharing it in case you find the triangle idea still too redolent of methods you donât like.[/quote]
Thank you! Youâre the coolest! Hey, whatâs UPG stand for?
UPG stands for âUnverified Personal Gnosisâ, though depending on who you ask, the U may stand for âUnsubstantiatedâ.
Either is fine and acceptable. It refers to understandings you have of the nature and actions of various entities, as well as concepts and situations related to your own practices and experiences, that arenât backed up by the lore (that is, mythology, grimoires, and so forth).
(Iâve paraphrased that definition from this source, which is worth reading the complete article if you have time.)
In other words, stuff you discovered yourself, often via 1-2-1 interaction with entities or through sunesis (a running togther of various different âa-haâ moments into an over-arching concept): things that have not yet been peer-tested, so to speak, by being replicated though other magicians trying them and getting appropriate results.
Itâs sometimes used as a derogatory term, but thatâs usually just ego-wank by someone trying to make themselves look good, and your own UPG isnât automatically worth less than something thatâs in a dozen books which contradicts it - as with everything in magick, as opposed to religion, it comes down to results.
So Iâm inviting you or anyone to test this idea and see if it works for you, and if not, Iâm going to carry on with it anyway, because it does for me.
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They find it welcoming for it is a 2 dimensional gateway into the material universe, which happens to be a cube.
Drop the U, Personal Gnosis is where itâs at.
[quote=âLady Eva, post:20, topic:3556â]And if you or anyone else wants to play with some UPG of mine developed from working with demons in recent months, try a six-sided (hexagonal) piece of thick black board or black-painted wood in place of a triangle - do NOT be tempted to draw in a Star of David inside it, you want the solid shape with no markings or names.
Like this, straight side (not angled point) facing towards you, unless youâre guided to do it differently:
You can place it on the ground, a table, whateverâs relevant with your set-up, but in this method Iâve been told to not use any other symbols that may impact upon it (so, donât place it on a circle of godnames like a traditional goetic circle, or on a cloth that has any symbols of any kind) - itâs a standalone piece that contains its own cosmogony.
Iâve been told demons will find this particularly welcoming for those of us who donât default to constraining them, but usual disclaimers apply that this is my UPG only - Iâm sharing it in case you find the triangle idea still too redolent of methods you donât like.[/quote]
So does the hexagon lay flat, or face you on its side. When you said it âfaces youâ, I was left with this question. Also, is there any distance needed between you and the entity? How big do you make the hexagons? Thank you for your help.
Iâm not writing anything in the hexagon, but I thought you might find this very interesting. You can actually perfectly make, both the star of Solomon, and the pentacle inside it. Maybe thatâs another reason why a spirit would want to be in there.
It lays flat, like a rug, mineâs 33 inches at its widest because that was the size of the thick art card I could find most easily and cut into shape.
Because youâre not constraining the spirit within it, nor are you trying to keep everything âholyâ so the âunclean spiritâ canât harm you, I was advised to decide on the proportions via what works best, and not specific numbers, though if you wanted to use any numbers that have meaning that would be fine.
I sit on a couple of cushions, have my Altar in a crate that stands about 15 inches tall, and place the hex at a distance where I can see the whole thing, probably about 3 feet from my Altar.
I'm not writing anything in the hexagon, but I thought you might find this very interesting. You can actually perfectly make, both the star of Solomon, and the pentacle inside it. Maybe that's another reason why a spirit would want to be in there.
Possibly, and DGLN makes a good point there as well!
I agree 100%.