[quote=“RavensAscent, post:6, topic:6265”]This idea has been a hot topic for debate for quite some time amongst sorcerers, and like religious beliefs, the ideas of how this can vary is also based on a wide range of opinions.
I believe both, that while some spirits have clearly existed long before humanity and seem to think and act for themselves, that it’s entirely possible to create a thoughtform spirit. One of the members here and I will not go into a lot of detail (not my place to do so) but if the member decides to share more later on they will do so of their own intentions. But one member went as far as creating a new demonic type spirt from thin air with the aid of a pre-existing demon. Only, from what I read it was more than just a thoughtform, this spirit took on its own set of traits and was clearly distinguishable as a “being” separate from the magician who created it. I believe, I read that others have managed to successfully evoke this spirit and were able to prove the validity of its existence.
But what is a thoughtform really? It’s an idea or a concept of something that exists and is given so much attention and planning by the human who drempt it up, that it becomes a thoughtform and begins taking on a life of its own. It’s no longer just a simple thought. Sort of like the idea of a poltergeist which can be linked back to a young female who has undergone a significant amount of trauma or stress that she unknowingly creates the poltergeist with her mind and unleashes it on everyone. Her way of causing chaos to others around her for the suffering she’s undergone, even her loved ones she doesn’t really want to hurt. So in the same respect, a thoughtform, if given enough independence and fuel what’s not to say that it can’t take on a life all its own?
Only difference I see is that ancient demons will tell you flat out “I have always existed, I have no beginning or end, I was never created I just am” things like that, and when we ask them to further elaborate on this they will only go so far claiming that we as humans simply cannot understand what they mean by that because we have beginnings and ends. However a thoughtform, while some can take on a life of their own against the wishes of the creator (or so has been suggested from other sources) it would seem fitting that if a thoughtform were truly your own creation then you could control it in some way.
So I have often wondered if the way to tell the difference between pre-existing spirits and created spirits would be, try to command it and see how it reacts. If you approach a Goetic demon with this attitude you are likely to be met with force or shunned away as they clearly have the ability to think for themselves and do not like being forced, controlled, or commanded. But if one was truly a thoughtform then we should be able to command it and control what it does to some extent unless so much belief is placed into the authenticity of that “being” that it takes on a mind of its own similar to a poltergeist.[/quote]
Perhaps, though I feel such a distinction might be simplistic. I know a few witches around my area who work with thoughtform magic and they always destroy their thoughtform after it reaches a certain strength. Because, they say, it becomes harder to control as it gains sentience and power. What they don’t want, say these witches, is to unleash a sentient force upon the world, who knows what it can do. And so, from their experience, thoughtforms are obedient until a certain step in their evolution, sometime before complete sentience. Whis presumably, after 500 years, I think that IF Satan and Lucifer were indeed thoughtforms they would indeed have reached sentience.
I would agree with Lady Eva that the answer rarely seems to matter, because as long as you’re getting results, why fix what’s not broken? Until we can come with a true test of discovering whether a spirit is truly a spirit or a thoughtform, I don’t think we should worry too much about it.
[quote=“RavensAscent, post:6, topic:6265”]Some say that if enough belief is placed into something, it can become real or at least seem that way to the individual. I’ve wondered, what if schizophrenics are not really seeing delusions because they’re crazy. But what if they’re only crazy because they are dreaming up their delusions which are just projections of their inner selves? Parts of their fears and their personality that they would rather not confront until eventually these undesired other halves of themselves just come out on their own but the person doesn’t understand the visions are a part of them and instead of confronting them, they fear them until it drives them crazy? And they place so much emphasis on their thoughtforms that they become very real for that person, no longer just extensions of their inner self but now separate identities which must be feared?
I read a theory once in which the author pondered, what if schizophrenics are not really seeing delusions but instead are just overly sensitive and psychic people who are connecting to alternate planes but since they were never taught about magick or spirits as being real, they didn’t know how to approach these entities and began fearing them. Because some spirits are relentless and unless approached and helped in some way they will never leave because time is not a concern for them so they will stick around for years on end until they are heard, and because the person with supposed illness isn’t aware of what’s really going on the spirits linger and the individual remains in an altered state of mind, continually tormented by these spirits?
But it seems, those of us who are aware of such possibilities would be able to test some things and know the difference between a real entity and a thoughtform. It’s possible some of the Goetic demons could be thoughtforms too because, like Jesus, if enough people hear about it over the centuries and come to believe its real and begin contacting it, that would be sufficient enough to give it power, turning it loose until it becomes its own self-functioning personality free from outside influence. It could be similar to religious people who have shared delusions of their god. But not everyone has the power to create a thoughtform and convince thousands of people “this entity was here since the dawn of time” until people believe it really was, so I imagine most self-created spirits would be easy to spot.[/quote]
I don’t believe that schizophrenia exists. In fact, I don’t believe much of what modern, materialistic psychology considers to be illnesses of the mind. While yes, there exists legitimate mental illnesses like Alzheimer’s, for the most part, like 95% of mental illness, I don’t believe is negative when approached properly.
Psychosis and religious visions have often been associated with each other since the earliest recorded history. Mental illness has traditionally been related to demon possession and prophetic ability as attributed to various personalities in the Bible. Saints such as Joan of Arc (1415 -1431) and Francis of Assisi (1182 -1226) heard multiple voices in their heads and the Church originally attacked them as being demon possessed. Of course, not all prophets were mentally disturbed people, many just practiced a kind of clairvoyance but remained balanced people, some even with a healthy critical intellect. So there is a very important note to make here: we must assume that people suffering from schizophrenia who are having religious hallucinations of God, may in fact be having real visions of a real God.
Manic depression has been called a brilliant madness because of the expansive ideas that psychosis can create. In days of old, people recognized how mental illness can even be a gift. Socrates once declared, “Our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, provided the madness is given us by divine gift.” Plato referred to insanity as: “a divine gift and the source of the chief blessings granted to men.”
In the shamanic view, mental illness signals “the birth of a healer,” explains Malidoma Patrice Somé. Thus, mental disorders are spiritual emergencies, spiritual crises, and need to be regarded as such to aid the healer in being born.
Sanity is properly defined as a particular level of consciousness that is the general consciousness of our reality. Therefore, insanity, is when someone is in a level of consciousness that is not the average consciousness. So, I completely agree with what you wonder about. The “schitzophrenic” is having true visions but because our materialistic society has no room for spiritual experiences, they cannot cope the reality of what is happening to them.
I recommend you read those links I gave, they are heavily insightful.
BUT coming back to the topic at hand, I would probably agree that most thoughtforms would be easy to spot for a trained magician. But this is also because most thoughtforms have been created recently. 500 year old thoughtforms probably have enough belief in their existence to say whatever they want to say and have unique personalities completely separate from any magician or population.