Are some spirits thoughtforms? Does it matter?

So, I have a question for the community at large. Are some of the spirits that people contact or evoke thoughtforms? That is, they were (quite literally) created because people began thinking about them. One of the reasons I ask this is because many people here seem to be contacting Lucifer and Satan (some people make those names into two different entities) but the basis for naming these beings comes from Christianity. But these names are actually a mistranslation of the ancient Hebrew.

Lucifer, for example, is Latin for Morning Star, which represents Venus. The only time we see this name mentioned is in Isaiah 14:12, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”

Now, ignoring the fact that this isn’t talking about some rebellious angel that got cast out of heaven but it’s poetic imagery describing the King of Babylon. Isaiah 14:4 says, “That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon,”

But, at any rate, this phrase, “O Lucifer, son of the morning” is a mistranslation of the Latin translation of the ancient Hebrew documents. This is the phrase in Hebrew “הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־שָׁ֑חַר” transliterated it says, “Helel benshahar”.

Helel means morning star (a reference to Venus), and benshahar means son of the dawn. Lucifer is Latin for shining one, many Latin Catholic Prayers refer to Jesus as lucifer (loo-chee-fehr), because he is the bright, shining one. And indeed, this reference to a morning star is used by Jesus himself later, Revelation 22:16 says, “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star (still a reference for Venus).”

Now, it was the Catholic Church in the medieval ages that created this connection. And I could go on about Satan in depth, but in the ancient Hebrew, Satan (or rather Shaytan) is not a proper name, it’s a type of thing. In Job, the shaytan went and chatted with God, not Satan. The shaytan is a specific kind of angel who’s job is judgement. Judaism does not believe in a rebellious counterpart to God, and none would do so until after the Babylonian exile. The ancient Jews were henotheists, they didn’t need to have Satan to blame when things went wrong. All that they would say was the gods of other nations were gaining in power, or that they had angered their god. When Jesus came and the records of his life (mostly fabricated) begin to speak about Satan as a specific entity that’s when that all changes between Christianity and Judaism.

So, since neither of these beings exist in the bible, they’re just bad translations and now that we know Hebrew and Greek much better than we did 500 years ago, we know these things. Yet, many people here have made contact with beings named Lucifer or Satan or both? Are they thoughtforms, created because people thought them into existence and therefore they exist and have power and grew to sentience? Or are they pre-existant beings going by different names? Or is it merely a coincidence that there also happens to be spirits named Lucifer and Satan and it’s only a coincidence that those names are found in mistranslations of the Bible?

But would it matter? I don’t think so. No matter which option is true, there are spirits which are named Satan and Lucifer and we can contact them and commune with them and they have power to effect our wishes and they have knowledge to share.

What do you guys and girls think? Are they? Does it matter? Tell me what you think.

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In core shamanism you go looking for, for example, a spirit to help your Aunty Ethel’s dog (that’s about the level they teach most of the time, very white-light and healing focused) and you travel into various spiritual realms in a light trance.

Your intent becomes the map and will take you either to a spirit who can help, or you’ll meet a known and trusted guide and they’ll take you to one who’s able and willing to help.

Wacky as this sounds, compared to grimoire magick, it DOES work - there are people and animals walking round now as a result of work I did on them using this method, who otherwise wouldn’t be. It’s less successful for manifesting physical objects (shiny things, money, etc) but for healing and various other things, including baneful work, it’s pretty effective.

And rarely do these beings give you a name, ID card, astrological sign, all the mumbo jumbo you get in the grimoires (I’ve speculated that’s because that would give you a level of power over them most prefer not to hand over).

usually, they’ll maybe have the head of a goat so they go into your journal as “Goathead” and maybe they’ll answer to thaT in future and work with you more, but sometimes, you never see them again.

This leads me to believe that the realms are full of spirits who are largely unknown and uncatalogued, which is one reason I reject attempts to reduce every “demon” (aka not the “God” of the Abrahamic faith, and not one of its angels) down into neat groups such as corresponding to an astrological sign, element, or one of 72 names of “God” within the traditions derived from one small middle eastern tribe - I don’t say that to be especially insulting, but for context, when you consider how many nations have magickal/religious traditions that don’t echo that concept, and yet worked perfectly well.

So, to address this question, I have a theory that if a magician were focusing intently on summoning let’s say a spirit who helps you compose pleasing salad recipes, spirits (plural) who are interested in this might answer various magicians, and if the call becomes more common over time as more people get into eating salad, they’ll form a heirarchy, or maybe they had a Salad Lord all along, a consciousness intimately connected to all things lettucey (maybe even the highest emanation of Souce > Salad), and that spirit will eventually begin to answer questions and delegate actual tasks to its familiars/lieutenants.

This fits with my experience, and so I’m posting it - my partner on the other hand believes all spirits are archetypes of the shared subconscious, which emanate forth in certain recognised patterns as the human psyche evolves and they change with it, so to him Set for example (and adversarial yet not “evil” god of ancient Egypt) evolved to become more malign as humans entered a stage of greater dualism, and that emanation of Set faded to become more of the Devil as in, malice and so on incarnate.

So to some extent in that system they’re pre-existing cosmic forces wearing egregoric masks.

I think the truth may be somwhere in between, as both the ancient Egyptians and the modern-day Hindu faith do show evolution of their gods and in some cases new godforms come forth, or older ones merge their attributes - are they distinct personages, as I treat them, are they pre-existing power taking egregoric forms created by humans to fill a need - who knows. My system works for me and his for him, and we both have a reasonably open mind on it.

I think that if enough people believe in a thing, that thing will come into being, and the created mask be kind of in-filled by SOME force, though what that is (and whether it existed prior to this, and manipulated people through their inspiration and imagination to create a vessel for it to interact through) is, again, another question entirely.

One final word - it’s been confirmed to me that some of the unnamed spirits I met in my CS days were actually also those known to us as gods, goddesses and demons in the magickal approach where names and descriptions rule, but that they never insisted upon that recognition, nor (this is important) upon dramatic sacrifices or asceticism when approached via the method of entering trance, going into a different plane in trance, and working upon things in this world, from there.

But most people don’t have much success trying to manifest a new car, fur coat or bundle of money from there, and IMO that’s because when you enter that loevel you’re more subject to its rules, which are aligned with healing and things that bring more life (this sometimes includes baneful work, removing pests) but less so with placing our material values first.

Oh and to answer your final question, no I don’t think it really matters, I just care about results. :slight_smile:

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I cannot comment on much of the religious overtones you make because I’m not that way inclined but I can tell you a fraction of your related question.

I have quite a bit of experience with spiritual contact going back many years and I do personally think that quiet alot of spirits are manmade or egregorical in nature. I know that many here on this forum might disagree with this and I’m putting my neck on the block here saying this but just as god created man in his own image, I also belief that man has also created god in his own image as an extension of himself, to reach out to the unknown and communicate with this great source of wisdom.

I belief myself that the egregore is more common in grimoires than any naturally discovered spiritual source. I personally think that the origins of spiritual communication came from mans developing awareness that there was something more than just his physical self and the environment he lived in. I think he sensed a presence within organic substances and the natural elements of earth, which made him examine himself more deeply.

This could have prompted him to try and connect with this source through some sort of communication. He thereby offered up requests, allowing himself to connect with these ancient deities long before his own thought forms created that other generation of Gods. I truly belief there were and still are spiritual forces, which were here long before mans existence. I think these spirits are the true ancients depicted in many formats. These primordial forces have simply became overshadowed by man’s own creations.

I was told by spirits that this early communication instigated mans first altars. These were simply sacred places of contact that became a place to offer sacrifice in exchange for favours from the Gods. The word altar was mentioned to me as being descended from the actions of ‘burnt offerings’. Altars are therefore a place to offer your petition, intention or sacrifices to the spirits.

A demon however (in my own experience) seems to be of a spirit that was once a highly respected god, who was either forgotten about or corrupted by its early worshippers thereby letting it fall from grace. It was later picked up and used again by capable sorcerers. This can turn it into a very powerful force indeed, as the demon (either natural or egregore) has become a reincarnated god with the influence of ancient magicians. Knowing this, you will begin to realise why these spirits love to get involved in the actions and lives of humans?

Some of the most natural spirits I know are the elementals. These creatures make up our perception, which form our entire world and how we relate to it. The elementals tend to catch our awareness at times and allow us to appreciate the beauty of their spirit. So in regards to their nature here, these types of spirits are not only very real, they are also very natural indeed without any intervention from man.

As a contrast now…I remember years ago as a child I would go through the schoolyard at night as a shortcut to get back home. With the building empty, it always seemed abit eerie. I got the impression at times that I was being watched. I still get these same feelings around old buildings and structures, especially when many people have accumulated there. Years later through study into the occult, I found that strong feelings and emotions can attach themselves around structures such as buildings and objects. I also knew that certain spirits that lurked around these places were just an accumulation of emotions and unattached ideas with no purpose or intention.

As my studies took me further into black magic, I learned more about these entities as they revealed themselves to me further. They taught me about this natural phenomenon and I realised that many haunted buildings and the atmosphere you get at times around places are formed through the energy that gathers here, and this was usually created by humans. When these areas got abandoned or became empty for a while, the emotions and associated ideas became detached from their source, which allowed them to freely move and become a personality like a self made egregore. These wandering spirits seemed to act like ghosts, but many appear to be nothing more than an extraction (or distillation) of thought energy to produce a personality, which are totally independent of our control?

We are indeed powerful like our creator, which is why man is always trying to strive for perfection and make life easier for himself in the process. Maybe this is why man has always made machines and manufactured his own spirits?

I’ve wondered about the supposed mistranslations myself, many times. And its my thought that they are deliberate. Why on Gods’ green (and mostly blue) earth randomly leave a single Latin word for no purpose? Illogical, and unlikely when the compilation of the writings that came to be known as Bible are symbolic and literary devices expressing divine truths, laws, and whatnot.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Isaiah-Chapter-14/

Particularly, among a population mostly illiterate. Particularly since the original use of the Bible was for the elite. Why else disappear the apocryphal (definition: ‘hidden’ as the definition of ‘occult’ is also ‘hidden’)/deuterocannonical writings once the printing press became able to disseminate these writings en masse to an uneducated and largely disinterested/misunderstanding/spiritually lazy population? Excuse being to save printing costs, I find unlikely.

Apocryphal books included the Wisdom of Solomon which speaks expressly of magic and ethics, the book of Judith, speaking of sacred deception, etc. The council of Nicea codified what could be included in the religious practice to maintain order. No writings from the Nag Hammadi early Gnostic tradition are mentioned in mainstream Christianity ever. Yet, there are delicious bits of esoteric wisdom in the Book of Judas Thomas, the Book of Mary (Magdalene), etc.

And its a good thing. Along the line of casting one’s pearls before swine; beasts that not only cannot appreciate the treasure, but trample and destroy the principles underfoot. I’m minded of Plato’s cave allegory; showing the light to the public masses - the non-searchers, the uncaring, stupid, lazy - will simply end with death for the one who so chooses to bring the light. Along the line of ‘seek and ye shall find,’ I don’t think there are any ‘mistranslations’ in the original compilation of the Bible in the manner of them being ‘mistakes.’ Nor do I think that there are any longer mistakes in any of the dozens of translations that have sprung into existence since then. Too much time, effort, political, and spiritual control were/are exerted in the compilation/creation of the work(s). In the same manner I experience the Book of Mormon, there is definite deliberation, and deliberate symbolic obfuscation to make the works easily digestible for those who are unwilling or unready to think or explore. Why not make the symbols parallel real events, then for those who require milk? But, really, a literary, spiritual, and/or poetic device is not a historical record even if some points contained therein have historical context or characters.

A recent author, John Piper amused me by stating that Christian pastors do a massive disservice to their constituents by neglecting to learn either Greek, Hebrew, or Latin as they will be unable to properly influence/understand the mind/nature/desire of God by reading the Biblical scriptures in their native tongues with cultural context, hermeneutics, decent exigesis/eisigesis, and correctly bring insight. I agree, as those languages convey clearly and concisely precise and accurate ideas. And it is probably why the ideas of ‘Satan’ and ‘Lucifer’ now differ so widely as to make the entities much more encompassing in thought and existence than was likely understood by a clergy who held a consistent control of a large population through consistent conceptual thought.

Spirits use the tools of space/time very differently than we finite human spirit-filled-vessels, after all. Evolution or change is something only perceptible by finite beings. We speak of ‘fall’ and ‘corruption’ as objective events, but as with Schrodinger’s cat, we change a thing simply by observing it. When we create a perception with our twisted human vessel ‘mind,’ we are only creating a dead record, a decaying memory.

A closed cannon (as the Bible is comprehended by mainstream Christians) is ludicrous in the extreme as the work is composed of an Old and New Testament. And for finite beings bounded by space/time, all contracts change (the entire principle behind contract law), and testament is synonymous with contract/law/relationship/pact. Satan and Lucifer are. Heavenly Father is. Only the changing experience change. Only the time-bound are capable of developing new and different conceptions based on new experiences and perceptions; new paradigms, new angles.

Its my thought that the symbols contained in scripture are experienced only as changing because we humans are neither static, nor homogenous, we are products of chaos, divinely gifted.

The whole reason for killing Christianity by codifying the New Testament and destroying the relationship, closing the cannon, and subsequently burying the relationship with Heavenly Father through Christ in ‘religion’ and meaningless ritual for the unready who desire slavery is to give them their wish: Slavery.

After all, how many embittered cynical Christians, and ex-Christians exist who have no actual concept of Grace/Forgiveness/Mercy as exemplified by a connection with the inner Christic current because it is wholly unexperienced therefore misunderstood by the public. Yet, connection/conversation/relationship/pact is possible with Lucifer and/or Satan because public conception of these entities is now so vast and chaotic, because the populace seeks certain kinds of knowledge that Lucifer is known to exemplify, that Satan’s adversarial characteristics are experienced, known, and comprehended by the masses.

And interesting point that a professor mentioned and I’ve retained was that it was only “outsiders” who began calling individuals who behaved in a certain way and practiced certain principles ‘Christians.’ Those principles were grace, mercy, and forgiveness toward those who were helpless, strangers, or who had wronged them (adversaries).

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I strongly disagree with that, I was about to type something but then I realised 1. it risks taking this thread off-topic and 2. while I don’t agree with everything he said in his videos, Timothy has covered the main reasons it’s not a good thing here already in much the same terms I’d use, so I’ll leave it at that and people can make their own minds up. :slight_smile:

The only personal note I want to add is that as long as learned helplessness exists (definition here) one can never truly be said to have chosen slavery, when raised by slave parents, educated by slave teachers, and exposed to a slavery-glorifying media and social environment.

But anyway that’s another topic, maybe better addressed on the thread I linked or in a new one, if anyone feels like it.

This idea has been a hot topic for debate for quite some time amongst sorcerers, and like religious beliefs, the ideas of how this can vary is also based on a wide range of opinions.

I believe both, that while some spirits have clearly existed long before humanity and seem to think and act for themselves, that it’s entirely possible to create a thoughtform spirit. One of the members here and I will not go into a lot of detail (not my place to do so) but if the member decides to share more later on they will do so of their own intentions. But one member went as far as creating a new demonic type spirt from thin air with the aid of a pre-existing demon. Only, from what I read it was more than just a thoughtform, this spirit took on its own set of traits and was clearly distinguishable as a “being” separate from the magician who created it. I believe, I read that others have managed to successfully evoke this spirit and were able to prove the validity of its existence.

But what is a thoughtform really? It’s an idea or a concept of something that exists and is given so much attention and planning by the human who drempt it up, that it becomes a thoughtform and begins taking on a life of its own. It’s no longer just a simple thought. Sort of like the idea of a poltergeist which can be linked back to a young female who has undergone a significant amount of trauma or stress that she unknowingly creates the poltergeist with her mind and unleashes it on everyone. Her way of causing chaos to others around her for the suffering she’s undergone, even her loved ones she doesn’t really want to hurt. So in the same respect, a thoughtform, if given enough independence and fuel what’s not to say that it can’t take on a life all its own?

Only difference I see is that ancient demons will tell you flat out “I have always existed, I have no beginning or end, I was never created I just am” things like that, and when we ask them to further elaborate on this they will only go so far claiming that we as humans simply cannot understand what they mean by that because we have beginnings and ends. However a thoughtform, while some can take on a life of their own against the wishes of the creator (or so has been suggested from other sources) it would seem fitting that if a thoughtform were truly your own creation then you could control it in some way.

So I have often wondered if the way to tell the difference between pre-existing spirits and created spirits would be, try to command it and see how it reacts. If you approach a Goetic demon with this attitude you are likely to be met with force or shunned away as they clearly have the ability to think for themselves and do not like being forced, controlled, or commanded. But if one was truly a thoughtform then we should be able to command it and control what it does to some extent unless so much belief is placed into the authenticity of that “being” that it takes on a mind of its own similar to a poltergeist.

Some say that if enough belief is placed into something, it can become real or at least seem that way to the individual. I’ve wondered, what if schizophrenics are not really seeing delusions because they’re crazy. But what if they’re only crazy because they are dreaming up their delusions which are just projections of their inner selves? Parts of their fears and their personality that they would rather not confront until eventually these undesired other halves of themselves just come out on their own but the person doesn’t understand the visions are a part of them and instead of confronting them, they fear them until it drives them crazy? And they place so much emphasis on their thoughtforms that they become very real for that person, no longer just extensions of their inner self but now separate identities which must be feared?

I read a theory once in which the author pondered, what if schizophrenics are not really seeing delusions but instead are just overly sensitive and psychic people who are connecting to alternate planes but since they were never taught about magick or spirits as being real, they didn’t know how to approach these entities and began fearing them. Because some spirits are relentless and unless approached and helped in some way they will never leave because time is not a concern for them so they will stick around for years on end until they are heard, and because the person with supposed illness isn’t aware of what’s really going on the spirits linger and the individual remains in an altered state of mind, continually tormented by these spirits?

But it seems, those of us who are aware of such possibilities would be able to test some things and know the difference between a real entity and a thoughtform. It’s possible some of the Goetic demons could be thoughtforms too because, like Jesus, if enough people hear about it over the centuries and come to believe its real and begin contacting it, that would be sufficient enough to give it power, turning it loose until it becomes its own self-functioning personality free from outside influence. It could be similar to religious people who have shared delusions of their god. But not everyone has the power to create a thoughtform and convince thousands of people “this entity was here since the dawn of time” until people believe it really was, so I imagine most self-created spirits would be easy to spot.

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I’ve said before plenty of times, you’d be surprised what the human mind can dream up and make real. I learned a little trick involving only my mind a few months ago and ever since, everything positive I want or need is coming to fruition. I have not done a spell or ritual in at least 3 months because what I’m currently testing out seems to be working very well so I haven’t needed to.

In my personal experience, I’ve found that often the line can appear to blur at times between uncontrolled thoughtforms and egregores, and beings which have existed before. The demons I work with appear in forms I generally “subconsciously” see them in, exhibiting an individuality and connectedness at the same time that makes me wonder if they are a part of me yet assures me of their separation. I don’t know if I am making sense :). I have never actually thought about it in depth because to me at least, it doesn’t really matter yet. I still get results either way. I’d have to currently agree with the others, in that I think the answer lies somewhere in between.

I know exactly what you mean. I sometimes see spirits differently than others do, in forms that are best suited to me but I also am reassured they are not a part of me and some tests on my end prove that I’m not imagining things or conjuring an imposter spirit.

[quote=“RavensAscent, post:6, topic:6265”]This idea has been a hot topic for debate for quite some time amongst sorcerers, and like religious beliefs, the ideas of how this can vary is also based on a wide range of opinions.

I believe both, that while some spirits have clearly existed long before humanity and seem to think and act for themselves, that it’s entirely possible to create a thoughtform spirit. One of the members here and I will not go into a lot of detail (not my place to do so) but if the member decides to share more later on they will do so of their own intentions. But one member went as far as creating a new demonic type spirt from thin air with the aid of a pre-existing demon. Only, from what I read it was more than just a thoughtform, this spirit took on its own set of traits and was clearly distinguishable as a “being” separate from the magician who created it. I believe, I read that others have managed to successfully evoke this spirit and were able to prove the validity of its existence.

But what is a thoughtform really? It’s an idea or a concept of something that exists and is given so much attention and planning by the human who drempt it up, that it becomes a thoughtform and begins taking on a life of its own. It’s no longer just a simple thought. Sort of like the idea of a poltergeist which can be linked back to a young female who has undergone a significant amount of trauma or stress that she unknowingly creates the poltergeist with her mind and unleashes it on everyone. Her way of causing chaos to others around her for the suffering she’s undergone, even her loved ones she doesn’t really want to hurt. So in the same respect, a thoughtform, if given enough independence and fuel what’s not to say that it can’t take on a life all its own?

Only difference I see is that ancient demons will tell you flat out “I have always existed, I have no beginning or end, I was never created I just am” things like that, and when we ask them to further elaborate on this they will only go so far claiming that we as humans simply cannot understand what they mean by that because we have beginnings and ends. However a thoughtform, while some can take on a life of their own against the wishes of the creator (or so has been suggested from other sources) it would seem fitting that if a thoughtform were truly your own creation then you could control it in some way.

So I have often wondered if the way to tell the difference between pre-existing spirits and created spirits would be, try to command it and see how it reacts. If you approach a Goetic demon with this attitude you are likely to be met with force or shunned away as they clearly have the ability to think for themselves and do not like being forced, controlled, or commanded. But if one was truly a thoughtform then we should be able to command it and control what it does to some extent unless so much belief is placed into the authenticity of that “being” that it takes on a mind of its own similar to a poltergeist.[/quote]

Perhaps, though I feel such a distinction might be simplistic. I know a few witches around my area who work with thoughtform magic and they always destroy their thoughtform after it reaches a certain strength. Because, they say, it becomes harder to control as it gains sentience and power. What they don’t want, say these witches, is to unleash a sentient force upon the world, who knows what it can do. And so, from their experience, thoughtforms are obedient until a certain step in their evolution, sometime before complete sentience. Whis presumably, after 500 years, I think that IF Satan and Lucifer were indeed thoughtforms they would indeed have reached sentience.

I would agree with Lady Eva that the answer rarely seems to matter, because as long as you’re getting results, why fix what’s not broken? Until we can come with a true test of discovering whether a spirit is truly a spirit or a thoughtform, I don’t think we should worry too much about it.

[quote=“RavensAscent, post:6, topic:6265”]Some say that if enough belief is placed into something, it can become real or at least seem that way to the individual. I’ve wondered, what if schizophrenics are not really seeing delusions because they’re crazy. But what if they’re only crazy because they are dreaming up their delusions which are just projections of their inner selves? Parts of their fears and their personality that they would rather not confront until eventually these undesired other halves of themselves just come out on their own but the person doesn’t understand the visions are a part of them and instead of confronting them, they fear them until it drives them crazy? And they place so much emphasis on their thoughtforms that they become very real for that person, no longer just extensions of their inner self but now separate identities which must be feared?

I read a theory once in which the author pondered, what if schizophrenics are not really seeing delusions but instead are just overly sensitive and psychic people who are connecting to alternate planes but since they were never taught about magick or spirits as being real, they didn’t know how to approach these entities and began fearing them. Because some spirits are relentless and unless approached and helped in some way they will never leave because time is not a concern for them so they will stick around for years on end until they are heard, and because the person with supposed illness isn’t aware of what’s really going on the spirits linger and the individual remains in an altered state of mind, continually tormented by these spirits?

But it seems, those of us who are aware of such possibilities would be able to test some things and know the difference between a real entity and a thoughtform. It’s possible some of the Goetic demons could be thoughtforms too because, like Jesus, if enough people hear about it over the centuries and come to believe its real and begin contacting it, that would be sufficient enough to give it power, turning it loose until it becomes its own self-functioning personality free from outside influence. It could be similar to religious people who have shared delusions of their god. But not everyone has the power to create a thoughtform and convince thousands of people “this entity was here since the dawn of time” until people believe it really was, so I imagine most self-created spirits would be easy to spot.[/quote]

I don’t believe that schizophrenia exists. In fact, I don’t believe much of what modern, materialistic psychology considers to be illnesses of the mind. While yes, there exists legitimate mental illnesses like Alzheimer’s, for the most part, like 95% of mental illness, I don’t believe is negative when approached properly.

Psychosis and religious visions have often been associated with each other since the earliest recorded history. Mental illness has traditionally been related to demon possession and prophetic ability as attributed to various personalities in the Bible. Saints such as Joan of Arc (1415 -1431) and Francis of Assisi (1182 -1226) heard multiple voices in their heads and the Church originally attacked them as being demon possessed. Of course, not all prophets were mentally disturbed people, many just practiced a kind of clairvoyance but remained balanced people, some even with a healthy critical intellect. So there is a very important note to make here: we must assume that people suffering from schizophrenia who are having religious hallucinations of God, may in fact be having real visions of a real God.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers/psychosis.html

Manic depression has been called a brilliant madness because of the expansive ideas that psychosis can create. In days of old, people recognized how mental illness can even be a gift. Socrates once declared, “Our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, provided the madness is given us by divine gift.” Plato referred to insanity as: “a divine gift and the source of the chief blessings granted to men.”

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/beyondblue/2010/06/are-you-spiritual-or-psychotic.html

In the shamanic view, mental illness signals “the birth of a healer,” explains Malidoma Patrice Somé. Thus, mental disorders are spiritual emergencies, spiritual crises, and need to be regarded as such to aid the healer in being born.

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/08/22/shaman-sees-mental-hospital/

Sanity is properly defined as a particular level of consciousness that is the general consciousness of our reality. Therefore, insanity, is when someone is in a level of consciousness that is not the average consciousness. So, I completely agree with what you wonder about. The “schitzophrenic” is having true visions but because our materialistic society has no room for spiritual experiences, they cannot cope the reality of what is happening to them.

I recommend you read those links I gave, they are heavily insightful.

BUT coming back to the topic at hand, I would probably agree that most thoughtforms would be easy to spot for a trained magician. But this is also because most thoughtforms have been created recently. 500 year old thoughtforms probably have enough belief in their existence to say whatever they want to say and have unique personalities completely separate from any magician or population.

If that’s me, then yes :slight_smile:

Last spring I created a new demonic life with a demonic King (who I prefer not to name), and I was told before and have also verified afterwards that the Child isn’t an egregore, and aside from the fact other people have succvessfully worked with it (we’re up to over a dozen now, online and off) the distinctive difference is that this spirit’s NOT needy for attention, unlike some egregores I have.

Anyway in case you’re interested ashtkerr, these are the links to the threads where I posted the full process last year, they’re all pretty long:

Pre-commentary

Conception

Birth

The spirit asked me to hold off on releasing his grimoire for now, for various reasons, but I’ve seen good results from his work so far. :slight_smile:

Wow, that’s pretty amazing. And it reminds me of the creation of a Shen Xian, or spiritual immortal. It is a part of the process of immortality in the neidong school of Taoism. What happens is the practitioner creates a spiritual foetus and it grows and is cared for by the practitioner until the practitioner combines his physical body with the spiritual body of the Shen Xian and they attain a “body of light”, becoming a Tian Xian or heavenly immortal.

Personally i believe a spirit can pick up the intentions of someone’s thoughts and take the ‘form’ of said thoughts and act accordingly to that persons preconceived notions.However since i don’t have a strong enough mind to create a ‘thoughtform’ i haven’t tested it out nor do i wish to at this point of my life.

Seems like most of us agree that both options are possible. It reminds me of the theory I shared here once about realities tailoring themselves to fit the ideas and values of the person experiencing it. Like some believe a supreme god is in control, others do not and they intentionally blaspheme those gods in an attempt to prove they do not exist. If there really were a supreme god with christian views, most of us would have already been stuck by lightning by now but it’s very real to those who believe it is. Their thoughts is what makes that god real for them and if you think about it long enough, that something else is in control of everything and karma is real etc. it will eventually become very real in your immediate world.

So with thoughtforms it’s essentially the same. If you believe enough that it’s not a part of you and it’s more powerful than you and needs to be feared, it will eventually take on a mind of its own and become exactly what you imagined it to be whether negative or positive. So reminding yourself that you are in control of a thoughtform or visualizing the thoughtform to be separate from you but working with you as a partner will also make that true in your reality. Just like some say Lilith will intentionally scare the hell out of someone if they approach her with a fearful negative attitude, because they invisioned her like that so that’s how she appeared to that person.

Why witches destroy thoughtforms from Evolving and gaining too much power says it all. People keep beating around the Bush by debating this…when it is glaringly obvious they are “scared shitless” of the truth that they are real living Beings… So instead they have abortions, because they are afraid of their own kids.

That’s true, but I don’t think anyone is debating about whether a thoughtform was a real being or not (at least I wasn’t) but my big thing was whether a thoughtform could be seen as a source for timeless knowledge. Like, if Lucifer or Satan were thoughtforms, then could they be seen as a teacher?

But we all seemed to pretty much agree that it was impossible to know, and also that it didn’t matter. We all get results from evoking these beings and the information they tell us can be used practically.

Yes you can create thought forms that teach. They would of course had to of been imbued with that knowledge or at least have some sort of access. It really is a basic concept. Hiw do I know? First hand experience in designing one.

Right, but that wouldn’t be timeless knowledge, that would not be an ancient teacher. As people claim Lucifer and Satan are. Further, the original hypothesis was perhaps Lucifer and Satan were created as thoughtforms by a mass conscious belief, a method not very conducive for fine tuning.

Cultures absorb other cultures. Lucifer is a “Promethean.” tThis idea I am sure has existed under different names and labels. I think you answered your own question. Anything can be done with a thoughtform if programmed properly. If you want a Timeless Knowledge thoughtform, then you yourself have to have Timeless Knowledge, otherwise you cannot create it.

Except Lucifer isn’t even an entity in the scriptures, it’s based on a mistranslation of the Latin translation of the Ancient Hebrew. The original word is “helel” and it means “morning star” and is a reference to Venus.

Edit: In order for Lucifer to be an absorbed Promethean entity, he would actually have to be an entity.

Interestingly enough, in E.A.Koetting’s Book of Azazel, Azazel makes that exact same claim, though in different wording. He says, “I would say I have always existed as a Promethean-Pandoran deity…” The idea being that in any of Azazel’s variants he is always a teacher of “forbidden” arts.