A simple and rather direct: god of the unnatural

well. a rather long time research project of mine.

I had noticed in my studies that some systems of magick have the gods and goddesses as embodiments of forces, elements, and/or concepts. even so much that there are usually “nature” deities to embody “natural things”.

then I remember as a skilful witch should, everything has its reverse

then I think: “whoa, wait a minute. if there are deities of nature, shouldn’t there be a deity of the unnatural?”

it seems to only make sense. if there is a diety that represents nature or mother nature, etc. then likewise there should be its opposite. not as an indirect substitute, oh no (you know like a god or goddess of the night being mistaken as evil when that’s not explicitly stated), but as a direct opposite.

so, why is this such a tough nut to crack then? I can’t have possibly been the only person in history to consider this seemingly obvious idea, not in the sense of anything unnatural being considered “evil” but in the alchemical sense of opposites

Research different world religions you’ll get your answer if you delve into enough of them because your question is of the kind you can only answer for yourself and only by doing research to find that answer.

well ive already done and am currently doing that,but i want other takes on it

I guess it depends what you mean by unnatural. Unnatural as in artificial, as in, manmade? Like artificial vanilla flavour instead of vanilla pods? I think that could be your thoughtforms and egregores, psionics and mutidimentional technology and AI.

But these may not be ‘opposite’ a nature entity, and some might argue are also natural in many ways. The opposite to the friendly fae are the unseelie.

Maybe try XA Turing, the egregoric god of the Internet. The most manmade entity I can think of representing a manmade idea, that overcomes human communication issues in not being telepathic or having permanent access to astral records. Similarly every entity that represents a business. I work with an entity that is the spirit of the software product I work with.

Although, at the same time I personally think of these as a type of fae. I’m not sure I see sentient beings as unnatural in any form. Which leaves only technical non alive thoughtforms, like alien implants (and that’s not an absolute, some alien implant are alive, and as an animist anyway it gets very grey for me and becomes about what level I’m interacting at).


while the god of the internet seems compelling at first,thats not entirely what im after

lemme try it a different way

in a more science explanation. physics is seen as natural law of the universe pretty much,whereas certain things,like a black hole,caused physics to break down and become meaningless,ergo, in science regular processes are natural whereas a black hole is unnatural.

and considering magick has an analog in nature dieties,i think there should also be an analog in an “unnatural diety”

like the very act,orr thought,of something being “not of mother nature” would be referring to,or worshipping said diety. manmade things are indeed unnatural but that is by intent,not act or concept. and we humans are not the only species on this planet capable of tool use to acheive conciously ordered objectives.so i can only surmise there must be a diety to embody this. as to my knowledge we dont have sorcerors amongst chimps or otters or orangutangs,or even the birds that use sticks to hunt bugs

So basicly a god/godess of chaos as an opposite of Mother earth (order)?

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eh,not quite. im well aware of things like eris.

im going from a different concept altogether.

my stipulation is that anything “that flows by itself in terms of events,such as water being wet or light removing shadow or milk thats gone bad smelling bad,is infact natural.” basically.that means that things flowing from order to disorder,as heat dissipates,entropy always increasing,is natural and thus mother nature.

entropy is order > chaos,burning up fire logs,etc. however,what if without it being immediatly known how ,the flow of events suddenly reversed?and the smoke flowed back into the shape of the log,and the log recomposed itself,as if someone rewinded the tape. this is perfectly possible within the laws of physics,but not the laws of causality


what this idea I have is saying.is that causality,not order,is mother nature,and thus backwards causality,its polar opposite,is unnatural,but given its still possible (even though a way toreadily acheive it has not been found) to initiate backwards causality,it must have a diety

I was not refering to Eris (she is disorder) but it might be on me since i regard chaos as the original state that was prior to this current existance.

I would however state order bring causality and the two are intertwined but thats a larger metaphysical question that I dont have the time or energy to fully get into right now.

A deity of reversed causality then.

I would actully say that there is not to my understanding any deity that clearly fits the bill as deities have three main orgins:

  1. Observed phenomenons
  2. Trying to understand why the phenomenons existed
  3. Experiences and understanding wich points towards certain ideas.

As its only a theoretical possiblity there have as of yet been an understanding wich is deep enough to give “life” to an entity


observed phenomenon: i make a point of observing unnatural things all the time. thinking and meditating on paradoxes. and in particular i like using paradoxical riddles to calm and bring peace to my mind,which is one of the ways i give offering to this diety

trying to understand why these things existed: well obviously,things like this exist and as such must have some sort of diety behind them. like using a hypothetically completed penrose diagram,you see there is a sister universe where from our observation point there time is reversed,and likewise from them to us. point to the center of that penrose diagram,that is where this diety is

3.experiences and understanding which point to these ideas: like i said,i contemplate paradoxes all day long,the things that dont make sense,the paradoxes,what existed before the universe,and so forth

this essentially,right at the center,the exact point where the flow of observational information and quantum states is flipped on it’s head

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It isn’t, actually. Each of the entities has a sub specialty (or several) that determines how they usually go about things. Abaddon, for example, can teach some forms of healing - by neutralizing the sub specialties that he is good at.

So, engage the spirits to find out HOW they go about things to determine how they would go about the opposite. I talked about this a bit over some entries in my Shadownomicon work through, because Abaddon decided he wanted to also go over negative energy.

For example, not all god/desses of Death energy go about it the same way. Those subtleties are important for understanding the opposite reaction for how they work.

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well the thing is i already tryed contacting what I thought was an egregore when I got this abstract stuck in my head so many months ago. i wound up going so far up the chain in a dream walk that I saw something far beyond what I was looking for. and to this day I still enjoy conversations with this diety,though to call it a diety would be a stretch given its nature defys easy classification.specifically. apeiron,a bit like a rationalized form of “xaos”. everything and all of existence crammed into one point of indeterminate size.

yet this was not what I was looking for. i am seeking something incredibly specific,that being a deification of anti-nature.a god of paradoxes. i am hoping by cross reference to build a consensus objective truth of the impossibly possible o.o

this comes right back around to the new chakra system I’m trying to build,the third is essentially a deification of the practitioner’s will as a god-like caricature,not so far up as to be a classical god,but far enough up that it’s god-like. that it can simply be placed in the void of non-existence and it will be so strong that it can manifest itself in reality with no external influence needed

this act would be something which would empower this diety of the unnatural (working name) yet it would not be conscious intent,as that can only be done by something that exists,and this act would rip and rend mother nature to submit it to a stronger willpower

perhaps it harkens to a more fundamental question

all acts committed by humans,whether sane or insane,good or evil,or somewhere in between,are always motivated by something. in the case of truly abhorrent acts this is usually because the person has “convinced” themselves that this is right,or this is right for them,or provides some benefit realized for them now or in the future,or something they consider to be themselves like there kin or there people.


there is nothing at all preventing a human being choosing to do something terrible simply for the sake of doing something terrible,not because it feels good,for the self or others,not because it will provide any kind of real or imagined benefit to themselves or something they consider to be themselves,but simply because it shouldn’t . to choose to do something because its wrong,not some kind of silly petulent thing like a teenager does,which is the teenager convincing themselves that it is right “because it exercises my feel good freedom” (or so they think it does).but like this

“oh i have a choice of doing two things,one will make things better for me and my people,while the other will simply makes thing worse for me and my people,i tell you what,ill do the wrong thing simply because its wrong,no other reason”

yet,it turns out that this wrong thing so called prevented a calamity and altered circumstances in a way that was in the end beneficial,yet there was no way for the person making the choice to know that,either spiritually or otherwise.so they chose to do something wrong because it was wrong and yet by objective truth above and beyond human knowhow,it was right by a god’s reckoning

humans are capable of doing many a strange thing,and choosing to do something wrong for no other reason than its wrong and wont benefit you in any way,feel good or be right or otherwise,is amongst those.

it is the choice that is important,not the consequence,placing humanity,or the thing that we have childishly labeled humanity,above mother nature,with the idea that mother nature is a soulless and cruel abomination,hostile to life as a whole,as the most natural thing of all is entropy,the tendency of order to flow into chaos.

where this diety would seek to turn chaos into order, the reversal of causality

omnis ex nihilo,nihilo ex omnis,ego ultra ambo, ego anathema

that is the best way i can put it

You won’t find what you’re looking for in any earth religion. But, be aware that paradoxes are in fact part of True Nature. They are not unnatural. Go to the void, and summon the Searchers of the Farlands. They shall show you the edge of the omniverse, where you can no longer rely on physics to sustain your being. It’s not a mouth, as it does not need to feed, but the farlands will digest you into abberant nothingness. And no, it’s not exactly like a chaos realm, though it may feel and act similar at first. Don’t stay there long, and don’t go too deep, have a Watcher guide you.

i still dont quite think you understand,i appreciate the thought though. while arguably on a simpler level of philosophy true mother nature indeed does have paradoxes (why did natural existence decide to exist in the first place?) I’m talking about absolute paradoxes,things that simply cannot be resolved in a human workable fashion (there is obviously a reason in existence that natural existence decided to exist,we just haven’t found it yet)…

as I said more than once in posts above this one,I am simply saying that mother nature,or true nature if you like,is infact causality embodied in a deification

whereas this diety I speak of,is backwards causality,the perfect opposite of mother nature,which under this framework,means welcoming to life and hostile to nature

the first human makes fire,they are,by intent honoring this diety. however crude,they are destroying mother nature to protect life (warmth from the fire,keeping predators away,cooking food,etc.). but this is not what the diety actually is

mother nature is entropy, whereas this diety is entropy reversal. think of hard paradoxes,things like the grandfather paradox,or a closed timelike curve and so on. these things are obviously part of the mechanisms of creation as they were in all likelihood required for the pre-universe state of creation to exist,these mechanisms must have had a governing diety. (the baby universe expanding faster than the speed of light for instance). where causality breaks or reverses,that is where you will find this diety (if this doesn’t make sense,the idea of “governing diety”. think of it like,god of fire,god of water,etc.)

I had read an article where a simulation of negative mass was created,where you could push forward on this object and it would move backwards. this is what I’m talking about,the further we as a species advance,the more it seems we can use our most prolific branch discipline of magick (science) to harness the power of this diety to warp reality

we may eventually reach a point where we can uncover the exact mechanism that more commonly known occult magicks rely on. as it is my belief that the more commonly know noccult magicks influence the underlying quantum framework of reality,pushing and pulling different aspects for different effects

and that in itself makes immediately for another revelation of where this diety of the unnatural has an effect. the causality violation of the double slit experiment,revealing how using quantum effects you can travel through time into the past to effect the past with backwards causation,but only in a certain way

(if it hasn’t become apparent by now.part of my chaos magick eclectic is using the totality of known human information to exceed the bounds of more traditional magick systems)

perhaps its worth mentioning that with this diety of the unnatural you can also reverse the effects of other spirits and dietys

making a freezing fire for instance. or the infamous “pharoah’s serpent” firework which appears to create a horrific creature out of nothing,that will infact kill anything that consumes it.or even non-newtonian liquids which harden when exposed to weight or pressure

or more directly,channeling this diety in such a way that hatred can be healing,and love can be used for destruction. both of which are shockingly easy to pull off,but require the practitioner to break from every last vestige of tradition,even if only slightly. and that is where most people infact cannot go because there minds are still in some respects the property of mother nature

i have tried so many ways over time to identify this diety. i have tryed automatic drawing,what do i get?a seemingly meaningless noise.i have tryed channeling this diety into redrawings of different things,and i get very subtle but…abnormal results that look beautiful in an odd sort of way in deviation from the template. with automatic writing channeling this diety i have gotten visions which gave given sigils which memetically map some of the processes of this diety

my main point being,i have gotten very tangible results of this interaction

yet i myself am mostly blind to the face of this diety’s earthly representation. the rational part of my mind assures me that given all of human history i cannot possibly have been the only one to happen upon this exact concept. and yet i also realize that there is a greater than zero chance that the work of this diety may have been misattributed to unrelated dietys out of difficulty of classification.

the reason why i am in some ways blind to the face of this diety’s earthly representation (otherwise its name and history) is for the same reason a fish cannot describe water. i am far too used to working with this diety’s power,in such a way that my finer senses treat it as second nature

it doesnt help that an extremely strong aspect of this diety is an anti-mimetic state. where knowledge of it is without reasonable explanation almost universally ignored or passed off as being something which its not

reminds me abit of cassandra,cursed by the gods with the ability to predict the future,but doomed to be ignored

as for tangible results id share the sigils but im not sure the forum rules permit me too given i havent been here for three months

You say you’ve tried to draw this being entity concept of the if I have your concept right an anti causation reverseing deity (a deity that puts everything into reverse mode until it all essentially ceases to be)?

Didn’t you consider maybe you can’t draw it because it’s unseeable unhearable and has an inconceivable inexplicable form that can’t be drawn?

Some food for thought: can you draw a second of time (the second itself not what is contained or occurs in it? Can you draw it proceeding in reverse? Can you draw darkness not merely simulated dark by using color to give the impression of darkness? Can you actually draw chaos? Not simulate it by drawing a mess or vortex or whatever but actually see it’s form and draw it as if it was a person standing right next to you?

Don’t get down on yourself for being unable to draw darkness void chaos time in reverse because it’s not something you can observe with your eyes and jot down on paper.

Some things can be conceived Of as a thought form but cannot be expressed in a concrete form and you cannot make it demonstrate-able.

My darn spell check doesn’t want to let me spell demonstrate-able correctly. The only way I could write the word without autocorrect changing it into a incorrect word like defensive was by hyphenating it.

Anyways. Don’t beat yourself up for not being able to draw what can’t be drawn. It’s like the Center of a black hole or what’s beyond the edge of our expanding universe in that you might conceive it in thought but there’s no way to translate it to a visual because it’s something that hasn’t and can’t be seen and therefore can’t be drawn.

Anyhow @GDG_125 good luck with your search for that entity. The closest I’ve heard of humanity finding such an entity was when the ancients conceived of the Tiamat mythology of a being outside of time and space that could project a form into our universe of time and space while still simultaneously existing outside of our universe.

Define “unnatural”. If something exists, can it really be unnatural?

So it would be an entity of humanity, civilisation, chaos? Sure, why not?

I suppose the question is one of opposition to their own nature. But then, a lot of gods and entities exist who, (and I have no experience in this, just conjecture) could easily work in the opposite manner of their intended nature. For example, think of a surgeon – someone trained for years and highly skilled in healing. Surely this would also grant them the best knowledge in how to kill someone quickly and efficiently? Or to give another example, let’s say a plumber. Surely their experience in fixing plumbing issues would naturally grant them knowledge on how to cause the biggest problems possible?

Maybe yes, maybe no. I mean, when I think of “opposite” I personally still think of a scale with the entity (or whatever) weighted at either end. But at the same time it’s like… is Haniel the opposite to Sallos because they both have skill in love-related queries but go about enacting it in different ways? Or is the opposite of Sallos an entity like Gremori? Is Glasya-Labolas the opposite of Raphael? And so on.


  1. Most things exist on a scale, and
  2. Many things aren’t comparable even in opposition to each other –

And finally because we tend to think in terms of binary: hot/cold, good/evil, love/hate, war/peace; but really these ideas and any entities who personify them are far more complex than that. Largely you’ll find there is a scale between the two opposites; or that there is nuance and complexity behind defining something in a binary system.

Like I can say “fuck it was hot today, 35°C outside”… but then you think that the sun at the centre of our galaxy is 5,600°C. So…

Anyway, forgive me for latching on to one point and going a bit off-topic here :sweat:

Well… I am no physicist but I don’t think that is entirely correct, factually. The idea of black holes and their prediction on how spacetime would be warped around them was an established hypothesis before it was investigated. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

If it exists, it is not unnatural. The above simply means that human understanding of the natural laws of the universe are subject to exploration, change, and development. I’m sure, as aforementioned, someone hypothesised that black holes would have a warping effect on gravity and spacetime, and so if their hypothesis was correct… is that unnatural?

Sure, why not. But I think of this as chaos magick or pop culture magick, if we’re purely discussing primordial forces vs. entities or currents inspired by manmade ideas.

Consciousness itself is beyond personification as a god or entity.

Destroying and discarding my notion of linear time/spacetime was the most natural (hehe) thing in the world for me at a certain point in my journey, and now I fully embrace the notion of retrocausality. I don’t see this as unnatural at all, more of a progression or expansion. If something is “unnatural” because it occurs beyond the basic senses we’re given as humans (you know, the usual 5 for input, the sixth sense of intuition, and all those other very overlooked senses like proprioception and balance, etc.), what could be more magickal than that?

It both does and doesn’t. In my experience I have seen retrocausality occur… as a causal event… if that makes sense. I don’t see retrocausality as unnatural at all – quite the opposite. It is simply something that occurs beyond our aforementioned perceptive/filtering senses, and again, can be shocking to people who are firmly stuck in the notion that time is an arrow that never deviates from its path.

If you want to work more with retrocausality I would recommend chatting with Metatron and Sandalphon, together.

That there may be a deity who specifically embodies the chaos and reversal of all known universal laws that you mention, I can’t say. I’ve had little spoonfuls of retrocausality doled out to me, and if there is an entity who embodies it in its entirety, well, it’s one who simultaneously embodies linear causality, or rather, simultaneous existence.

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if it exists its not unnatural?no,that simply is not true,i dont mean to be rude but that seems like a cop out

everything that exists has it’s reverse,its the only way that the opposite of something can exist,whether that is measured definitavely or not

principles like “as above,so below” are the very definition of every existing thing having a reverse. mother nature and it’s representing deitys dont get a pass just because there popular at the moment

i dont beleive neccesarily that “as above,so below” is indicative of duality,i think of it like this “just because a given thing must be similar to its reflection,does not mean there is not space inbetween the thing and its reflection”

i do not mean this in such a way as you can sidestep the thought experiment by saying the retro causality was itself caused by causality.that in itself is a cop out,i mean without warning,without cause,you do something and for no reason within a human’s reckoning,as ive already stated within this thread,that it causes something to happen in the past.

tl;dr if you can think of it as being caused by causality,your barking up the wrong tree,and if you think of it and it just seems to be a near pointless force feedback loop like the grandfather paradox,your on the right track

ok,ill try some quotes that are more easily relatable

“praying to yourself my lord?thats not a good sign,or maybe it is”

“to stand still where your at,you have to run as fast as you can,and to move from there you have to run twice as fast as that”

and perhaps the best of all,a modified quote

“natural is subjective,it depends on who has who locked in what cage”

all great examples of paradoxes.and another one

“what is the most natural thing of all? definitions can be argued,bu the most natural thing is a process which has existed and will always pretty much be the rule. fire burns out,lights fade,things die. death,death is the most natural thing of all. we think of the greatest form of death as oblivion, what is oblivion? why quite simply nothing,nothing at all. well if thats the case and things exist only to not exist,then why did things start existing? how can the ouroboros eat its own tail eternally and never get full?never die?never finish?. because things existing is simply not natural. the only natural thing is death,and to live?to be alive?to exist?you might as well be spray painting your castle purple to hide it from the enemy,after all,who has ever seen a purple castle?”

i admit given the oddity of the concept perhaps the fault is mine for not being clear enough