What's the origin? [of daimons being demonized]

How did it happen?

This might cut close to people’s opinions but I believe in free will you are an individual therefore you have the right to choose where you believe in like everyone else

Magick has been practiced before Christianity said everything that isn’t God is bad

I read that God= Jahweh

And that Jahweh said every entity that have nothing to do with me is bad and the people just said yes daddy :joy:

And that Jahweh is the only entity that is waging a war

I started thinking that daimon is not an entities but a occupation because of the term before Christianity and if they are ET’s they are ET’s that have the occupation of daimon I like to be fluid

I like to know why the thing’s are the way things are I know it’s probably highly individualistic

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Short answer is, nobody knows. But a lot of people have an awful lot of theories and origin of the cosmos stories.

You’ve got months or research ahead if you want to hear most of them out.

Before there was satanistsm there were the Gnostsics, and also the Cathars and Templars…
The Gnostics think Jehova is satan - aka the demiurge aka Yaldabaoth.
Others think Lucifer is satan and is the good guy, bringing knowledge, and jehova doesn’t want huamsn to have knowledge, which is why Satan is “bad” - he can’t control people who know. Except it’s all inverted to keep the sheep … sheep.

I don’t run with this myself - I use the Taoist model of reality - the tao that cannot be named created the one, and from that one came the 2 (yin and yang) and from the two the 5 elements and from the 5, everything else.
No gods required - the gods are themselves creations from the tao. I don’t believe in gods, only in manifest entities that we label as we wish.

But maybe start here: this guy does good summaries explaining the church-suppressed mysteries in the Kabbalistic and Early-Christian teachings including lots of gnosticism, and here is the Gnostic origin story for the universe and it’s links with Neoplatanism and Modern Physics:
(I’m no joiner, so not a member here but I agree with large chunks of what this guy says)

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Ok It is more complicated than I thought I’m just taking the stance of it was the human ego and the crusades came about because humans said my god is better than yours WW2 is a perfect example of one person saying something and thousands just saying you’re right I don’t have an specific idea why the world exist or why the astral plane and other entities exist

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Ok, back up - I thought you were asking about the origin of manifest reality or the universe?

What origin are you asking about?

There’s no other option, because we don’t know, and all we have is ideas and speculation. So you can stay neutral (agnostic), or you can just adopt whate other people thing, you or make up your own ideas, or a combination. There IS no Truth™. Not as a human - this is what the viel is - the unknowng and forgetting who we are when we incarnate. It’s part of the deal.

You haven’t had time to hear out that video I posted though that explains it all, so maybe you’re not that interested, but I have to tell you, there’s no quick and easy answer here. You’re going to have to study up for a few more hours than 1/2 if you actually want to get an idea

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Oh no I’m going to watch the video only not now because of time

I asked about why daimons are demonized and if God/Jahweh started it by saying they are bad or if something did happen to make people demonize daimons

I also searched why gravity exists people know how it exists but not why

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Oh - ok - well that’s all fake.

Read the book called “The History of Hell” - it’s explained in detail in that very well.

81r+P0ItydL.SY425

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And for a full survey across multiple religions and philosophies, I highly recommend the book
The Secret Teachings of all Ages, by Manly P. Hall.

You can get the PDF free but to be clear, this thing is massive - I got the audiobook and it’s 29 hours of listening. But that will save you literally YEARS of seeking. I’ve spend years already and I’m still learning many new things, and connecting some dots.

But in a nutshell - way back when the Mesopotamians were all warring, it was normal practice to demonize a defeated people’s gods.It’s part of psychological warfare. And the gods were back then only local to the city they were for. Jehova was the god of Israel and had no power outside of Israel. Today, that is still seen in he church demonizing those same gods. Belial, Astoreth (Ishtar), Bael (Lord), Ba’al Zebul - all “gods”… all ELOHIM (which is plural for El, aka "god’ which is actually a horrible translation for “El” - what we mean by god today is not what they meant by El then.)

Yahweh is ONE of many Elohim or Els. There was never only one - just only one that was a psychotic narcissist and burned you alive if you questioned him.

History of how a minor and formerly insignificant tribal storm.war El became “the” god…
(And note, “winged chariots” are today speculated to be UAP/UFOs, and Enoch (banned book about the dude that became Metatron) seemed like a horrible description of UFOs too - so there’s still the ET connection here)

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i think it was because of some religions and cultures .

these religions and cultures were trying to prevent some other ones from being believed in and practiced , so they started portraying them and everything that was coming from them as bad .

which … also includes the spirits .

Ok I’m asking this here because this post is broad enough

I’m just wondering and curious of all things I’m aware that I wouldn’t know everything but I’m dammed if I didn’t try

One this is assuming that deamons that deamons actually where other Gods, if that’s the case would that mean that those gods reincarnated as what they now are but not standard reincarnation like humans,

Like they know who they where I’m also wondering if their other also knows who they are like for example astaroth and Astarte or Asmodeus and aeshma

Is the goal of deamons to help human to ascent

I’m also have an feeling that they play the long game to help humans ascent because they are immortal/extremely long lived

I have most from C.Kendall’s lore of the infernal empire because I’m more inclined to take deamon testimonys more seriously because human biases no hate just stating facts

And also no hate or anything of that sorts I’m not trying to look from any religion or tradition like I said no hate or anything

No. It’s all made up.

Edit to add: Just because there is historical evidence that some of the demon of the Goetia are demonized deities, it does not mean that all of them are. In fact, it is less than 5% and claiming that every demon is an old god just because a few of them are is like saying all cats are black just because some cats are black.

No, their goal is to express their power in this plane, something they cannot do without humans to open the door.

I hope for the better because humans already make enough of a shit show of everything

Let me guess it’s impossible to know the intent of an entity so no one you’re practically playing Russian roulette

I’m tired of questioning what really ‘deamons’ are I see a lot of possible bullshit and fairytales I don’t care if you believe in that it has no impact on my life but I’m not looking to believe in fairy tales I believe in reality in facts in the history of spirits themselves not religious rhetoric

like I said this is not an attack on anyone

But this is how I feel about this

I’m unsure why this frustrates you so much and for so long, when people already answered to you that no one can give an actual answer as a fact. Each person has their own worldview and belief system (or lack of it) so one person’s truth is not a set in stone concrete reality for everyone on this planet.
Besides, don’t forget that here in BALG we’re not a cult so most definitely we don’t have to follow blindly whatever cosmic revelation and worldview one has.

If history is what you really and truthfully want to talk about, I can help with that, as the word “daemon/demon/daimon” is of Greek origin and let’s say I have a certain knowledge on this matter. I will copy paste here what I had in my old (hidden in Lounge) Journal that does not exist anymore (yes I’ve kept a copy because these are decades of research for me and took me countless hours to put all this knowledge into a post):

Daimon, Daemon, Demon

In ancient Greece, the word “Δαίμων” (Daimon, Daemon) involves piety. In epic poetry, the Gods are called Daemons.

It co-exists with the word God, but a Daemon was referring to the impersonal and undefined Power, while a God to the anthropomorphic divine entity. The meaning of Daemon was equivalent to the Fate.

It comes from the word “δαίω” and “δαίομαι” which means “distribute”. Distribute each one’s fate. So a Daemon was the one who distributes and as an extension, in a more general meaning, the one who defines the fate of a human.

Also in the word Daemon, they attributed the concept of guardian angel. “By the guard of Daemon”. From here comes the word “ευδαιμονία” which means bliss, happiness, the one having the favour of a Daemon. As helpers of the Gods, they send their decisions through prophecies, while watching the evolution of mortal’s lives until their soul is free from the bonds of their human body.

You can find them in many ancient texts, in works of Homer, Herodotus, Plutarch, Plato, Hesiod and others. They played an important role in the lives of humans and are mainly referred to as deities that act in the heavenly space between Gods and humans. They have a two-way relationship, that is, in some way, the intermediary messenger of the Gods to the earthly world and vice versa.

According to Hesiod, Daemons are the souls of the first mortals that Gods created, the Golden Race, the purest of them all, deified by Zeus himself to protect humans. While the rest of us belong to the fifth race, the Iron Race.

“First of all the immortals who live in Olympus made the Golden Race or mortal men. But since this Race was covered by soil, they became benevolent Demons, by the will of Zeus the great, Guardians of the mortals on earth, who watch for fair decisions and unfair works, dressed in fog, the rich givers who walk all around the earth. This royal privilege they gained.” Hesiod, Works and Days.

Plato, in his work Cratylus, describes Daemons as wise, “δαήμονες”, and explains that when a righteous human dies, acquires great fate and honour and becomes a Daemon himself. “That’s how I perceive the Daemon (Δαήμονα), that is every human being, Divine as long as he lives and after he dies, and I think he is rightly called Daimon.”

After Hesiod, philosophers like Aristotle and Plato said that Daemons are the “next after Gods” or that they are “children of Gods but not Gods” and they were separated as good fate or bad fate, Kalodaimon and Kakodaimon and was said that every human had one of each upon his birth.

Socrates could listen his Daemon from his childhood and was helping him to take the right decisions. He described it as a “voice I listen from within and which always when it comes, prevents me from things I shouldn’t do but never promotes”. They also had conversations about “everything that human wisdom could not compute”.

Philosophers like Thales and Empedocles were describing Daemons as the soul of the universe. The concept of Daemon reflects an immaterial form of high spirituality that diffuses into the universe and emanates from the Divine to help all humans or to test them in order to find their path in the difficult materialistic life.

However, the contact of the Daemon with a human requires an equivalent spiritual background for the mortals, for this is the only way they will perceive the kindness and benevolent nature of the Demon.

“This, my friends, is also the way the demon acts. As long as we are immersed in the mundane and changing many bodies as vehicles, it lets us fight on our own and persist, trying to find salvation through our own virtue and find our harbor. The soul however, having a good and eager struggle in long-lasting battles through innumerable births, and while its cycle approaches its end, defying the danger and showing goodwill for the outcome of its struggle, ascends to the higher beings with much sweat. That soul, God, does not find it unworthy to be helped by the familiar demon, but leaves anyone who shows willingness to help. And the demon is willing to save another soul with his encouragement. And the soul, because is close, hears him and is saved. If, however, (the soul) does not obey, the demon leaves (the soul) and has no happy ending.” Plutarch about Socrates Daimon.

All ancient Greek philosophers and writers who were initiated into the ancient mysteries (Eleusinia-Kavireia-Orphic-Cretan-Pythagorean, etc.) believed in reincarnation, in which the soul uses the body as a vehicle to incarnate on the earthly field. Gradually, through the opportunities presented in its consecutive incarnations, it evolves and once, when it is finished, it reaches the Theosis. The Demon can help in the faster perfection, as long as the mortal perceives Damon’s “vibrations” and “hears his voice”.

“But the thoughts of the Demons have light and shine upon the souls of the Demoniac people, without the need of words and names, which humans by using them among them as symbols see only Idols and images of thoughts. The same thoughts are known only by those who receive a Demonian light… Thus, the thoughts of the Demons, echo only among those who have righteous calm in their soul. These are precisely the people we call Sacred and Demoniac.” Plutarch about Socrates Daimon.

Plutarch also says that the souls who since birth they listen to their familiar Demon, they “become oracles and learn to leave their body during day and night and wander around the earth and come back again while have been present in conversations far away” Which is nothing else than Astral Projection. He also says how humans are more likely to hear their Demons when they’re half asleep or sleeping, because of the calmness of body and mind.

Plato in his work Republic, describes how the souls before they incarnate, choose their guardian Demon and not the other way around.

“As we have often said, there are three distinct kinds of soul in each of us, each with its own movements … But we must understand that the predominant kind of soul that God has given to each of us is a demon. It is what, as we said, resides at the top of the body and elevates us from the Earth to our heaven, for the truth is that we are heavenly creatures rather than earthly creatures. In the sky, the first birth of the soul occurred, and our roots are there - the divine soul attaches and roots our head, and from there the entire body rises downwards. So if one has devoted himself to wishes and quarrels and wasting all his momentum there, his thoughts are necessarily mortal.

He would even be completely mortal and himself, if possible; in fact, he is only a bit short of it, having developed only his mortal part. But if he is devoted to the love of learning and true wisdom and cultivates it primarily on the side of itself, he is bound to think of immortals and divines to approach the truth. It is a bit short of the attainment of immortality, as immortality is of course accessible to human nature. And because he always takes care of the divine soul and cares for the demon that is in him, it also arrives at a particular bliss (ευδαιμονία).”
Plato, Timaeus.

Lastly, our Daemons are receiving our souls when we die and lead us to the afterlife.

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It is relevant to consider Ba’al (just as Elohim) being a common term referring to local deities generally, rather than a specific, monolythic one.

If we take into account the Ba’al Cycle, there is an association between אל, who was the head of the Caananite pantheon before, Ba’al, who supplants him by defeating Yam - the evolution of Ba’al into יהוה also can be widely attributed as a spread out process, the accounts of idolatry in the Old Testament point to a clear competition between deities for legitimacy. אל, who represents a father deity of subordination, or strong connection to earth (Neumann’s stage of differentiation, the feminine is not yet repressed) is repesented by the golden calf for worshipping of which Moses kills thousands (bull symbolically is a strong indocator of masculinity, but very earthen, very palpable).

Ba’al, as best I can tell maintains this only partially - the association with fecundity (storm + earth = new life, this symbolic approach is maintained in gender relations in judaism as of now) is maintained, but the Cycle seems to indicate a rising transcendental orientation - the killing of Yam, reads symbolically as conquering, [castrating], or supressing the unconscious aspect of self, the subconscious, the [sea on which our awareness drifts - now the sea is enclosed within the vessel of the ship, ruled by it] and by that proving the superiority of [I really feel like גבורה or Mars fits best], the principle of unthinking action, domination, albeit intuitvely it doesn’t tell nearly the full extent of it. Yam then, assuming the dominant position over אל unrightously, (according to the cycle) symbolises the domination of emotion, unconscious, femininity over the [somewhat balanced rulership of אל] to restore order, the martian principle (it’s not that simple either) of Ba’al has to die and be reborn by it (the classic Nigredo-Albedo schema, likely universal across known cultures) ultimately taking it into control.

יהוה takes it further, the transcendentality and totality becomes absolute. The feminine is supressed, the subconscious is supressed. The solar hero cannot maintain itself, it conquers in labyrinths, murders monsters it knows not to be itself, to be punished by it in the end, always (Girard’s interpretation os of great value here, but not congruent with Neumann’s). As in Elijah, the competition between Ba’al and יהוה (postfactually narrated hundreds of years later, after being resolved by power) by Neumann’s account is the act of conquering the subconscious and then supressing it - this, obviously, results in projection. Then, all demonisation of deities would be an act of projection by the deity demonising, or the psychology of the worshipper.

This account is [sparse] and [narrow], unfortunately.

Ba’al was the Sumerian word for Lord. There were many Ba’al as there were many Els (Elohim being the Hebrew plural for El). El is not a name either.

Modem westerners not knowing that, assuming it was a name when it’s a title, have caused a lot of confusion though speculation that was then taken as read by others who didn’t even know it was speculation.

Mod note: This is an English language only forum, per the rules.

I didn’t mind you using Hebrew letters when you provided the English translation next to them, but I will be removing posts that use Hebrew without translation moving forward. I advise that you simply use the English if that’s too much effort.

I apologise for my inattentiveness in providing romanisation. I’ll do my best to be more cautious in the future.

I agree, but I think there is more to this than mere confusion. What Neumann’s theory indicates is a shift in collective consciousness from viewing femininity/emotions/subconscious/Earth as an integral, even if somewhat subordinated (one way or the other), part of spiritual reality, being a counterweight and a necessity for the existence of the masculine sky/storm/father/conscious (much like 阴 (yin) needs a 阳 (yang)) to turning it into an absolutely subordinate, repressed part, which, in turn, leads to projection, rising of antagonisms between disperate systems of thought, disperate systems of naming, and different psychologies, at least from the point of view of a post-Solar (as per Neumann’s “Solar Hero” paradigm shift) religion, which turns authoritarian, vilifying difference [or maybe rather lack of appropiate differentiation]. The general nature of both Ba’al and אל (EL) and the collective shifting of use over time, with a period of clear competition, would then be an indication of a collective shift in the way of conceptualising reality and spirituality, the underlying [principles] of reality, as mediated by consciousness. In the light of that, יהוה (YHVH) becoming a monolythic, singular deity, reflects not only a shift of the underlying principles, but also of a [particular → universal] shift in consciousness. Solipsism, one should call it. This is further corraborated by the later developement, יהוה (YHVH) no longer being the name used for the deity, in Pauline Christianity instead shifting to THE God, with internal differentiation, rather than any external one. All else becomes repressed out of even the frame of conceptualisation, except for pathologisation, other deities as specifically (non-God). A binary is formed, creating a cosmological myth (in a semiological sense) of achronological, ahistorical war between good and evil.

I hope this reply isn’t too rambling.

I don’t really agree with this approach of over-intellectualizing something that was historically practical to nothing but mental masturbation. The Ba’als and Els existed as rulers and the documentation, including older versions of the works that form the holy books of the Hebrews and the Christians including the apocrypha, per Freddy Silva’s research, show they were not figments of the imagination but actual personalities of the times.

I don’t think you’re rambling but in my opinion, too much speculation leads to building castles in the sky, with no objective benefit, and distorts the conversation so far from the historical basis that it becomes foundation-less. I don’t see a reason to assume that there was a collective pattern of thought between the Sumerians and the Canaanites, separated as they were in time and culture. However, if you wanted to do that, I’d think it’s not complete without considering the related cultures in the same epoch globally - collective consciousness was not confined to Mesopotamia - why cherry pick those two?

This is no different than when people decide that Bael of the Ars Goetia (thought to be Ba’al Hadid) and Beelzebub (a coarse nickname for Ba’al Zebul) are the same being from conflating the title as a name.

From my researches, the idea of “daimones being demonized” comes from the translation of the Talmud from Hebrew to Greek.

In the Talmud, there’s no “demon”, there are shedims (gods from the foreigners) and Se’irim (goat like spirits)

Both where translated as demon.

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Honestly I felt like I couldn’t see the forest from the trees anymore already being a bit sceptical about subconscious human quirks like biases

It’s an interesting read

I honestly didn’t know that the most influential philosophers had philosophized about deamons and the like

I apologise for the confusion. I didn’t mean that as “imagination”, I meant the “fundamental structure of reality” as in consciousness and physical, the as above so below principle of correspondence. This might sound vague or unresonable, so I’d like to illustrate - if flat land is something your culture values, you will create cosmologies that “deify” flat land, that need not be actual deities, just assigned to the appropiate category, same for any arbitrary cultural category. What category depends on culture and system of analysis. Let’s say structuralism applied in XIXc. Polish countryside, for an example easy for me to call up. Then you apply the interior - exterior differentiation, this maps onto God - Devil, then Day - Night, then arable land - unarable land and so on. This is the simplest way of parsing out a symbolic order of a culture. In my understanding it can map onto religion quite well. Albeit structuralism is rat’s ass and has little analytic value, you can similiarly apply other systematisations, like semiotics for example. In this case it is simply symbolism of water and sea, this pattern of killing sea gods is not limited to Ba’al - Thor does the same, if one’s right and elemental association of sea, or water, transcends culture, reaches through evolutionary history likely.

I do refer to Neumann, because there is a certain symbolic progression he outlines which is applicable in the context of shifting from decentralised, pantheonic polytheism to monotheism.

On the names: there was significant cultural (so also linguistic) transmission within the region so the generic names אל (EL) and Ba’al were not limoted to the places where they originated linguistically not being proper names - that then depends where and when. In context of decentralised polytheism aka. every town a different deity, these did mostly function as common names, being specified further with the name of the town or deity’s function, this could also take shape of pantheons, either spread out geographically, or specific to certain towns. The generic Ba’als and generic אלוהים (elohim) coexisted the same spaces, were part of the same pantheons and tended to have a congruent set of attributions between many examples of the same name, at least in the context of Canaan. Later examples, such as Elijah mentioned earlier, illustrate יהוה (YHVH)’s competition with Ba’al as well - and that could be both the generic name and the specific deity at the same time.

The story of the Ba’al Cycle seems situated in pantheonism, pretty clearly, if not a regional one than at least specific to Ugarit.

If you take into account the Exodus 6:3, where יהוה (YHVH) first reveals [his] name he does refer to himself as being known as אל (EL) specifically until then.

Altogether they create a pretty clear genealogy: אל(EL), fecundity, bull, earthen head of a pantheon → Ba’al, fecundity, storm, war, later head of a pantheon → יהוה(YHVH) storm, war, sole deity, transcendental (which competes in a polytheistic world with other deities being worshipped as well, but demands subordination) → Christian “The God” sole deity, completely transcendental.

I hope this is helpful. I welcome any extra commentary/criticism.