Tulpas and why they dont exist

Spirits, Evocation & Possession
21

Or is it?

You assume it is linked to spirits, but the paradigm of the subconscious mind says all that phenomena is actually caused by your mind based on your belief about spirits, not by any actual spirits. The hallucinations caused by the poison of the belladonna plant are “real” to the people experiencing them too. It doesn’t mean they have external validity though.

Nothing can truly be said to exist outside of your perception of it. Without the consciousness of your mind to process the sensory input, the “spirits” might as well not exist at all because they would in fact be impotent to interact with the world.

And the word “gnosis” means knowledge, not a state of consciousness. The Chaos Magick paradigm usurped the word to refer to an altered state of consciousness, but that is not the actual definition. So UPG is “unverified personal knowledge,” meaning that it has no validity or truth outside of your own experience.

So, you’ve never heard of “folie a deux?” It is a very real, and well documented, psychological phenomenon. Or mass hysteria?

Edit to add: i have a lot of UPG. I just don’t go around proclaiming it to be the “absolute truth” because it is, in fact, unverified.

6 Likes
22

mass hysteria is caused by paranoia and its not just my own experience my fellow occultists and even friends of mine have seen the same things i have but they only experience when aroundme lso consciousneess is part of knowlege anyways ill link my evidence tomorrow

23

one last thingthe subconscious deosnt do anything against your will as long as you control it i did not will my house o be messed with

24

LOL That is a ridiculous statement. The aspect of the mind called the “subconscious” is named so because you don’t control it. Its name is derived from the idea that it is below conscious awareness, and you need conscious awareness to exert any sort of control (for example, the first step in learning to control your heartbeat is to become consciously aware of it).

No, it’s not. One person sees something, and by force of conviction, they make others see it too. It’s suggestion, pure and simple (being in a heightened state, such as excitement, fear, or sexual arousal makes the suggestion even more powerful, but research has proven it is not always necessary).

Which makes folie a deux very much likely.

5 Likes
25

whatever ik what i say to be truth i believe truth can be learned through invocation and evocation from my experience gods are real if you want to be an atheist whats the point in this conversation.

1 Like
26

The point, is that you made this thread to proclaim that servitors aren’t “real,” (despite the experiences of thousands of magicians) while at the same time saying that the fictional creations of a fantasy writer of the 1920’s are, and I think I sufficiently proved that gods, demons, angels, and the Cthulhu Mythos, can’t be said to be “real” outside of the consciousness that experiences them, thus making servitors just as real as anything else, including Cthulhu.

3 Likes
27

i sad servitoirs arent real but i never said i didnt experience them i experienced servitoirs thats how ik they are only a projection of your subconcious and i have experienced gods as well and thats how ik they are both within the individual self as well as outside the individual self they are real

1 Like
28

also no you didnt prove that gods dont exist youve just named possible scenarios

29

Hope you make a separate post on Cthulhu mythos and your experiences.

30

oh i will

1 Like
31

ill even give names of cthonic demons ive personally worked with

1 Like
32

That would be cool. I’m just starting into Cthulhu mythos, and curious about experiencse of others working with Lovecraftian entities.

Everyone taps into Akashic records but eccentric geniuses like Lovecraft and other wacky people have more access to the records than normal artists do. It is all the more reason not to discount that he made up all the entities and they have no objective existence. I personally believe they exist as much as the other agents of chaos from all the cultures through the time.

33

yeah my patron is yog-sothoth

1 Like
34

idk who my matron is

1 Like
35

chaos mgick is important in the cthonic arts

1 Like
36

That can be said about any spirit, not just servitors.

There are magicians that have has better results with servitors than with demons, angels or gods, so, if spirits have independent existence, how is that possible? Surely an independent spirit would be able to accomplish more than just a figment of someone’s subconscious? That’s what we have called them for over the millennia, after all.

I have been at this for almost two decades now, and I have never seen any evidence of spirits existing outside of my own mind. When I started in magick, I followed the spirit paradigm, that is, I believed that the spirits I was calling had an independent existence from myself, and that by some weird quirk of the universe, their function was to help humans to accomplish stuff.

Now, I lean towards the subconscious paradigm, though I am open to the idea of an independent existence.

No, I pretty much disproved the entire premise of your argument. You proclaimed that servitors weren’t real in the same sense as gods, and tried to use the Cthulhu Mythos, Yog-Sothoth in particular, to bolster your argument, and my counter argument was that Yog-Sothoth was made up by H.P, Lovecraft, and therefore is not any more real than a servitor, so you cannot say he is real but a servitor is not.

I have found that one of the ways people like to bolster their unfounded belief that their spirits existed before their first documented appearance, is to trot out the concept of “masks.” A prime example is Satan. Satan didn’t exist until Judaism, so to justify their belief in his existence as some sort of primordial being, followers will bend over backwards to form correspondences and connections between older gods and then point to them and say, “Satan is Lucifer is Malak Taus is…insert another ancient god here.” Doesn’t make it true, though.

The Cthulhu Mythos is exactly the same. They didn’t exist until HP Lovecraft dreamed them up (actually, August Dereleth, a member of HP’s writing circle, created a few of them, and was even responsible for coining the term Cthulhu Mythos), so you trot out the old standby of “they have existed in other forms,” with absolutely no proof to back it up.

I am a psychology major so I know that the human mind can easily see connections where there aren’t any, and come up with ludicrous explanations to justify personal beliefs. It’s what we do.

You started this thread proclaiming something you personally believe as “absolute” truth, and I called you out on it because, it is most definitely not absolute, and many magicians, myself included, have had experiences that point to the fallacy of your initial post.

I’ll bow out now, as I’ve said all I needed to say.

5 Likes
37

this conversation is over dark knight i said i would post proof tomorrow

38

Every profession has spirits associated and not just the traditional entertainment or creative professions.

1 Like
39

I felt this discuss a bit… one-sided.

this conversation is over dark knight i said i would post proof tomorrow

Can’t wait to see it. Uhm… maybe @DarkestKnight not otherwise.

40

The most entertaining thread I’ve read so far.
No academic value, except that I just learned the term “UPG”, but entertaining nonetheless.

I am going to sit down and cheer on @DarkestKnight, wearing my nicest Batman shirt, and scream “Team DarkestKnight!”.

In my UPG, humans are not real, because I mostly sit at my computer, and I only see people through the screen.
I thereby deduce, logically, that you are all bots, and you are striving to mislead me.

4 Likes