So this question popped up in my mind many times. Now I’ve read books about subconscious mind and I think it works as same as magick. What if magick is just a system to operate and train your subconscious mind and gain results through it and spirits being a imaginary beings I’m not saying that spirits does not exist, they do but what if we aren’t summoning demons or angels and just a part of our subconscious mind because on this forum I’ve also came across imaginary made up spirits called ‘servitors’ I never heard of them before and many people have gained results through them. Also I’ve heard about ‘lust for results’ to get your ritual to success and being in ‘trance’ to be able to talk to spirits. Because when we are in trance we are also using our subconscious mind. I’m not doubting magick, it’s just a thought. Any ideas?
Whelp, is the basic premise, more or less, for the chaos magick school of thought. We have a whole section dedicated to chaos magick in this forum.
Would that make magick any less real to you? I think that’s the only question that matters.
i say 2 things. magick and unconscious mind. I think you mean that instead of subconscious mind.
ReyCuervo has given you a good answer.
This idea that spirits are an aspect of one’s consciousness (either the upper or lower, or unconscious) is Crowelyian to quote Dr. Stephen Skinner. A product of the new age magician.
Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZO-RBYs34
I disagree with the premise that spirits are a product of oneself. I disagree with the ‘PsychologiKal Magicians’. There’s a lot of spirits and forces out there, beyond just angels and demons.
Inadvertently we can draw elementals and such things - and this should not be discounted when one is purportedly creating a servitor.
So I did reprogramming when I first started to activate my subconscious mind it seemed o definitely help. I’d recommend playing out the concept that you can get it to do the magic for you. O yea Musa I didn’t read it yet how long per session does that long protection spell take and is there a planet associated to it so I can plan it out for what hour of the day to o the spell?
I’m going to try that term for programming my self. Thanx for the wisdom hope I can put it to use.
Everything is mind.
I’ve heard many chaos magician expressing their acceptance of a physiological model as one possible explanation
What I am referring to here is our subconscious mind.
Each one of us who practices magic has had a situation where they wanted something so badly, did a spell, obsessed over that want, and did not get any Desired results. I think the key to a success spell/ritual is to get around our conscious mind so we can program our subconscious mind to manifest exactly what we want. I think it is not the spell or any ritual that does the work, it is our own subconscious mind.
I get it. I’m not denying the fact that spirits do not exist, they do. But I don’t think that the system we are using is actually summoning them because many magicians have: effective results magic by going deep enough into trance state to effectively shut down the conscious mind. And we usually hear/see spirits while in trance triggering our subconscious mind.
From ‘lust for results’, ‘writing your petition in a present form’ to not give a second thought to our spell/ritual these things indicated towards the working of our subconscious mind.
My confusion and question is that are spell/ritual are actually ‘Magick’ or they are simply a system to let our subconscious mind to manifest what we desire? And are demons/angel just a thought forms to operate our subconscious mind to get effective answers to our question. I have experienced that our mind have all the answers we seek?
The 33 days master protection one?
If you look at the comparison. subconscious mind you have access to and able to recall. Unconscious mind is everything that you can’t know consciously. that can include intuition, insights, when in certain states. etc… Sooo i think you are talking about unconscious mind. Subconscious mind is limited to what you can recall. Unconscious is everything else even special gifts. It’s a really tricky term cuz many use the term the same of unconscious and subconscious being the same. But they are not the same. subconscious is just below conscious mind which you can retrieve info if you put effort. unconscious is deeper where super power lies. that’s where hypnosis work is done. maybe this can explain further. http://breakthroughholistictherapy.com/hypnotherapy/concept-of-the-human-mind/
There is a chance, I guess, that both things are true.
In one hands, spirits can exist. In the other, the chaos magick may still work as stated. Have you heard about the guys and girls talking with Superman? I know, that may be a thoughtform born of 80 years of people’s fantasies, but very well may also be an internal dialogue with the current form of a basic archetype.
Just my two cents.
It’s pretty much what I believe but I guess I think of magick as a way to “hack” it
But my beliefs may evolve over time, who knows…
Well, there’s all kinds of spirits beyond the conventionally known. Like elements, larvae, etc.
When we do things like create ‘servitors’ or even masturbate over sigils etc, you can inadvertently draw such a being. So while you may think that you or your creation is doing the magic, it’s really just that being.
Check out that podcast with Dr. Stephen Skinner – it’s really good.
With the guys and girls talking to superman, this may sound mean, but I believe they delusional and/or larpers.
Which system are you referring to?
Like I mentioned before, what can happen when you do something as innocuous as stare at a sigil and then masturbate over it, or create a servitor etc. is inadvertently draw an elemental or larvae type spirit that carries out a magical function.
Well there’s also plenty of magic that’s done without needing to be in a deep trance. Simply a relaxed state is enough – the idea of which is to be calm and not lose focus. The trance does not = the result.
To give you a little example - ‘Ritual T’ – those that have done and seen, are not standing there in trance anymore when that spirit is there. It’s not possible.
Yes, that’s for your subconscious mind – to give you the confidence in your work. It’s not your mind which is carrying out the magic.
But, look I haven’t used a petition in many years, nor have many other magicians. So how would their magic then work in this case? It’s not the petition doing the magic, nor is it the subconscious.
The subconscious is for helping you attune to the new reality. Not entirely necessary.
The idea that the conscious mind impresses upon the subconscious a particular desire which then has a 2 way ‘conversation’ with the tetragrammaton or the universe is exactly that of the psychological magic model. But even with this premise, it’s not even the ‘mind’ totally which is doing this. You’re connected to the supreme which is handling the desire.
If you’re doing any kind of ritual involving spirit etc. it’s the spirit you’re calling and asking to do the work. It’s the spirit doing the work. You’re in a trance or meditative state simply to be focused and not distracted.
No. Demons and Angels have existences external to your existence. They have seen worlds come and go.
They do not use your mind to manifest your magic. That would render them unnecessary then. Them needing to rely on you to accomplish tasks.
They can communicate to you, through the mind – this is just one method of communication.
The system that most of us are following like simply chanting a demons enn looking at his sigil and falling into trance I don’t think such a small act can conjure such a powerful beings and aid us without any reason. I am not judging or denying the method but I just wanna know.
Yes, there are magic that are done without needing to be in trance but they aren’t always as effective as magic which is usually done in trance, because i doubt that the revelations and communication with the spirit is actually a communication with our own mind because why would such a powerful being would need a half asleep person to actually talk to, why can’t they themselves manifest infront of us without us needing to be in trance?
Now, let’s say that the subconscious mind is necessary to give you the confidence in your work. But why is that magicians always say to ‘not give a second thought’ to the spell because it will not work if you do that? I think if we are really requesting a powerful spirit to do the work then I don’t think our mind matter. Because definitely it’s the spirit doing the work then why does mind matter?
So does that mean ‘lust for results’ and our own subconscious mind isn’t necessary because it’s the spirit doing the work?
Yes, I believe that demons and angels exist no doubt in that. My only question is can such a simple evocation technique manifest and summon such a great power at our disposal. I doubt that. And I think we are just pretending to that we have successfully summoned them but instead it is our own mind tricking us.
Yeah, based on the model you described, you’d likely be drawing an elemental, or some other kind of spirit. A representative of the spirit you intended to call. And this is quite common.
I see. I think this comment describes the extent to which you have experienced and understood what magic is all about.
There’s a lot of magical traditions that feature workings outside of this particular model that you’re describing.
You’re saying outright that magic not done in trance is not nearly as effective?
I cannot address this because I don’t know where to begin.
Honey jars are one example of magical work that are very powerful and require no trance.
Ritual of the Pentagram requires no trance.
Middle Pillar Ritual – requires no trance.
If you mean to say that all spirit work is effective only in trance, I think there is some misunderstanding.
I agree you need to be in a trance like state to begin such work involving communication. But I don’t believe that if your trance is disrupted that is the end of the work and any success is limited because of that break in trance. There are many, including myself, that once they have seen spirit, the sheer surprise breaks your trance, but does not break the experience.
Instead you have a very lucid clarity – fully awaken but a kind of transcendental perception.
I also would like to suggest, there are many that don’t require trance to be able to have some brief communication with spirit. They usually have very strong psychic and intuitive capabilities.
I have doubted my magic many times and have had it work. When you say ‘all’ magicians say not to give it a second thought because it won’t work who are you referring to?
Do you mean the psychological magicians or the youtube magicians? The ones that have picked up liber null or are like asbjorn torvol from BALG that decided they were masters and understood what magic was all about in 6 months?
If you’re operating from their framework of what magic is and how it works you need to appreciate your understanding will be limited to their framework. Beyond that scope there are alternative explanations.
I doubted my magic becomes sometimes spirits come and they say they will help but they don’t. What can you do?
Or they come and they help after a really long time – at a time when you thought they weren’t going to. And at that time they help you.
You are right. And I agree. The mind doesn’t matter.
The proponents of these principles of psychological magic don’t accept the idea of spirit doing the work though – because remember it’s all in their mind. So the success/failure is dependent on their mindset.
Lust for result is an unhealthy psychological beahvior. It’s a different topic which relates to you micro managing a spirit, and also causing yourself needless emotional stress.
It is not dependent on the success of your magic as much as people say it is, in my experience.
Because if that were the case there should be no examples of desperation magic working.
And some times despite the lust for result, the magic just works.
Not so black and white.
My answer would undoubtedly bring me a lot of unwarranted prejudice. I in part agree with you.
You current train of thought assumes the 2 conscious/subconscious (or 3 depending on your systems methodology. conscious/subconscious/unconscious) minds and magick are separate in some way. Most system you will find the 2 are explained as interconnected.
But most people not involved in a spiritual practice of some kind or opposed to various spiritual views for one reason or another end up adopting the mental model of magick that it is all various states and manifestations of the mind. This is one extreme side of the spectrum people seem to adopt, the other being the purely spiritual outlook. You will also find alot of people who have been at this a while have a mindset that is mix of the 2 sides on various subjects based on personal experiences. The leaning more toward one side or the other will vary depending on their experiences.
Subconscious fabrication can lead to personalised experience with magick to where they interpret their experience completely seperate to one’s else’s. It really just boils down to the subconscious being the key to the psyche and most if not all properties related to the universe, sit on the bed of the subconscious.
There have been threads to where if “things” ever were “real” as they get or were they subconscious projections fueled by ideals. There’s really no right or wrong answer, it all mingles together — especially when everything is aligned from psychical to aether… the subconscious produces the most powerful effect.