Something I wish Wiccans would realize

I will be honest. I DONT LIKE WICCA. Not as much as I can’t stand mainstream religions like Christianity, but that’s the thing. Wicca is like Christianity. Replace God, the bible, and the prophets with Pagan gods, myths, and heroes. But keep the same way of thinking, same morals, and potentially the same prejudices but watered down. There. That to me is Wicca.

At best, I think Wicca could be this great beginning religion so people new to magick don’t need to transfer right over to the big stuff and can gradually but comfortably make the transition. But that’s not the case.

Wicca pretends its this ancient shamanistic religion, referring to its self as getting its roots from the “Old Ways.” It’s not. Wicca is a modern standardized religion. Wicca being rooted in “The Old Ways” is like saying modern day vampire novels, like Twilight, are rooted in the ancient legends of vampires. But no. They’ve copied and pasted the vampire into modern day romantic fantasy, leaving behind the whole purpose of the vampire. That’s what Wicca is to me; the copy and paste of myths and magic into modernized religion, leaving behind the whole value of these myths altogether.

I remember going to a Witchcraft store for the first time years ago. The woman who ran it gave me a poorly made booklet to take home and read. What did it say? “We are all here on this earth to live in praise and worship for the goddess.” It certainly sounded like Christianity, except replacing a vague nameless god for a vague nameless goddess. I then saw a price tag. It said $20. She gave me for free something akin to a college pamphlet on sexual harassment that would’ve otherwise costed me $20. And it blatantly said "We exist to serve some deity. Unfortunately, it wasn’t like I knew of any other place to go for supplies. Years later, I found out from someone working for this woman that she drinks, like literally comes in drunk, and is blatantly racist. But she’s a high priestess.

I’ve tried out various Wiccan groups, and they weren’t very friendly when they find out you support something they find controversial. This would usually be something belief wise like supporting Satanism, following darker gods like Hades or Loki, to practicing darker magick. However, some were also rather homophobic or racist, or even extreme feminist. But, mostly they were just naive and very traditional.

What I’ve realized is that Pagan mythologies tend to vary differently from the bible. It’s not the classic story of good vs evil. It’s something a lot more complex. In the bible, God (the light) creates the heavens and angels. Then “Lucifer/Satan” (the darkness) rebels due to pride and falls from grace. Then humanity is created and both good and evil compete to decide man’s path. The base concept in the bible is that Light creates the world and darkness (which came from light) comes around to corrupt it.

Various Pagan creation myths differ. Some state that the chief god is the creator. Others have a more “interesting” idea. In Norse mythology, Fire and Ice gathered in the void of space to create Ymir who creates the Jotun. Burri marries a giantess and has Bor. Bor marries a giantess and has Odin and his two brothers. They slay Ymir and make the world from his corpse.

In Greek mythology, Sky and earth make love and birth three races, the hundred handed ones, the cyclopes, and Titans. The sky imprisons all except for the titans in Tartarus. The earth gives Chronos, leader of the titans, a scythe and tells him to wound his father and release his brothers. Chronos does and rules the earth. He then puts his brothers back in Tartarus and consumes his 5 children, Hades, Hestia, Posiedon, Hera, and Demeter. Rhea gives birth to Zeus in secret. Zeus, as a young man releases his siblings and the hundred handed ones and cyclopses and wages war on Chronos.

Celtic mythology doesn’t necessarily have a surviving creation myth, but one that states Ireland has been inhabited by many different races. The Tuatha De Danaan, gods of Ireland, were actually other dimensional beings sent to conquer the island. They took it from the Firbolg with the help of the Fomorians and elected a half fomorian prince, Bres, as their king. Bres was cruel so he was dethroned. That started a war between the two factions, ending with King Balor being slain by Lugh, who was himself half tuatha and half fomorian. Then the mileseans took the island and the Tuatha De Danaan fled into the earth. They were then worshiped. At least this was the myth I read.

What I’ve noticed is that in all three mythologies, the antagonists of the gods came before the gods themselves. Along side that, they were considered giants. Giants to us are large humanoids the size of buildings. However, I believe the word giant may mean elemental or primordial being.

In all three mythologies, the idea that giants came before gods suggests the concept of primordial natural giving way to orderly civilization. This is in opposition of the Abrahamic concept of perverted righteousness. This relates to the conflict of Divine Command Theory vs Social Contract Theory. The idea of “God makes the rules” vs “All of civilization is a contract within its people.”

In the three mythologies listed above, they state chaos (Darkness) came first and order (Light) came after. This would state that the universe is balanced between two forces. One maintains order. The other brings about change. Change I believe is made up of destruction and creation. Both go hand in hand. The act of creation disrupts the current system, forcing the system to either adapt or be replaced. Though creation then requires to be stabilized, assigning form and function. This is why the system exists. Without order, chaos would be unstable and nothing would be allowed to exist. Without chaos, all things would be stagnant and would never evolve. And if you do not evolve, you decay. I feel as if this also relates to the Right and Left Hand Paths. One maintains order. The other brings change.

The relationship between the gods and giants is far different from the extreme relationship between God and Satan. In fact, they are not two different races but two different families. In one form or another, the gods came from the giants or intermingled with them. Not every giant is considered evil.

Wicca still functions on the extreme beliefs of ultimate good fighting ultimate evil. Spiritually, for those claiming to worship Pagan gods, this feels incorrect to me.

Along side that, there’s a moral issue in how magick is to be used, but I’ll discuss that in a later post.


I completely agree. I heard in a video once by George hares stating that Wicca is just based off of the older traditional witchcraft or something like that. I always felt it was to soft for me.


That’s more new age Wicca. Traditional is more Cunning Folk from what I’ve witnessed.


You should post that here as it is part of this discussion.
It would be considered a duplicate post otherwise.


I agree it’s the same in Slavic Mythology, our creation story begins with Bog Rod being born from an egg. And then using that egg to create our world, he planted a world tree with roots reaching to Nav and branches reaching to Prav and he created the bogi.

The main conflict is between Bog Perun of Prav and Bog Veles of Nav. Every year in an eternal battle, Bog Veles steals something from Bog Perun and Bog Perun tries to strike him with a bolt of lightning.

But Bog Veles isn’t some cosmic evil. He’s the helper of shepherds, farmers, and in winter Xhors Dazhbog, the Sun, is dead and Bog Veles is our only protecter from Bog Mokosh in her form as Bog Morana, Bog of Winter and Death. Bog Perun won’t strike his wife and Bog Svarog never interacts with Yav.

Bog Veles brings chaos and Bog Perun brings order.

Slava Bogum!


That’s true.


A lot of them were raised Christians, and its a super safe way to explore magic and paganism. I am personally neutral about them. I have never fitted in any group. I see them as harmless white witches.


The kind OP describes are actually very good at baneful Magick but won’t ever admit it. They also (in my eyes) have no true moral code; anyone who is not them deserves heinous punishments.

Not very pleasant people.


Wicca bothers me more than mainstream Christianity to be honest. As much as I detest Christianity a lot of them actually try out strive for their beliefs going to extremes. So I’ll give them that, they’re persistent.

To me Wicca is just an excuse to let yourself go. Any Wiccan I’ve come across has no real defined belief other than love and light. Horribly unbalanced and just floating on by thinking the world is a happy place. It’s a tap out to me.

I don’t mean to offend anyone by my statements- this is based off of personal experience. Truly, any Wiccan I’ve known has been a dirty hippy dodging life in general. :woman_shrugging:t2:


It really disgust me to see such a new religion as Wicca having already it’s worshippers fighting each other and disagree so much in basic things such as “what is Wicca”… Because yes, not even they know what really is Wicca. That’s why you see so many movements within a single (and very new) religion, they can’t even decide if they worship 2 gods or many ffs…
To me it’s just Christianity undercover. In fact they remind me a lot of jehovah witnesses, they will approach you out of nowhere and try to hook you up into their religion. Bleh, I can’t even.


In Timothy’s book on black magick, he makes a really good point that Pagans don’t really believe in the myths they claim to believe in. They don’t believe in the myths being literally true, and I’ve found that to be the case as well.

I find that Wicca is best as an intro to magick, but very few seem to actually stay in it long-term.


I think it is a bit disingenuous to paint every Wiccan with the same brush. People on this forum have whined and complained about othets labelling all black magicians as animal sacrificing satanists yet that is exactly the same kind of thing this thread is doing.

I have met powerful Wiccans who practice their religion and who live its tenents. Whether you agree with it or not, there is power there, more so than that held by many that walk the LHP. If you read the work of Christopher Penczak, you will see a witch that truly walks his talk. I have learned much from him, almost as much as i have from EA himself.

What people here seem to be describing are the equivalent to the posers and edgelords that are so rampant in the LHP. They don’t actually live their practice. They are the evangelicals of paganism, all “do as I say not as I do.”


Yeah in a pagan aspect, “Giant” isn’t the stereotypical 20 feet tall creature. In the Norse pantheon, the terminology is “Jötunn”, a member of a race of nature spirits with superhuman strength, described as standing in opposition to the races of Æsir and Vanir, although they frequently mingled with or were even married to these and because of this, the general relationship with them is very complicated and usually is case to case. Jötunn had a original meaning of “glutton” or “man-eater”, in the sense of personifying chaos, the destructive forces of nature. Take Hel for example, she is the goddess of death, to most people, thats chaotic and destructive, all though, to us followers of the Rokkir(a new age term for sure but its usable), they are needed and beautiful in there own way.

The point I was making was you were spot on the primordial being. I mean yeah as a whole, Wicca is kinda a joke and is making the pagan revival seem like a joke.


This is exactly what I’m doing. I’m not interested in the moralities of Wicca whatsoever. However, it’s pretty clear that Wicca is the most accessible practice for the beginner, ironically due to its hippie-like theology which allowed it to be commercialized and structured.

It’s seemingly the best way for a beginner to better learn astrology, magick, practice meditation, etc, all in one package, and I simply discard the ethos.

The ‘Lord and Lady’ are immediately replaced with Diana and Pan. Then I’ll move to working with the Egyptian pantheon, which will allow me to get a feel for different currents (if I’m using that term correctly), like Horus contrasted with Set, for example. Instead of jumping right into ‘the big stuff’ of particular type, like Demons (or Angels).

But yeah I’d never even try learning with a coven. Since Wicca is a religion they unsurprisingly seem opposed to other viewpoints and hold taboos. Which is why I’m here: I’m willing to work with anything.


That’s how I started. Worshipping Diana and living in fear of the 3-7 fold rule, but never seeing the results of being a good little witch.

Although I no longer worship Diana, I still respect her as a Deity, and I still love her as a mother.

Bending the knee is something I do not do anymore unless it is a show of respect, in ritual.

Still, I learned some tricks that are pretty useful today.


When I was a child I was brought into Wicca you could say but it never fully sat well with me and didn’t satisfy me. I learned that are two forms of Wicca, one that is traditional and one that is considered the “new” one that you could say is more eclectic. Over the years I have been looking for a path that I fit more with and I found Feri. In Feri you are usually initiated and its highly secretive except for one lineage that has online courses. I was interested in it but I wouldn’t be able to learn from it as I am not able to meet with a person to teach me it. I did learn though from some online sources about it more and a good amount of the lineages had connections to darker magick and practices.

At the time of learning this I was still hesitant about black magick mainly from being apart of Wicca and their ideology. However everything even from childhood always pointed to the LHP and as I grew to understand it more I felt that it is a path I should follow. As of now I know that it isn’t as I thought and I feel more at peace knowing that I’m starting on this path which in a way almost seems as if it was meant to be like I was drawn to it.

As it has been mentioned before Wicca can be discriminatory and that is part of why it didn’t sit well with me such as the Dianic sects that are only female based but they don’t permit trans people like me to join. Traditionally there are rules that did not appeal to me and the “newer” side of Wicca didn’t seem like Wicca to me. I also did not feel that LGBT people were always excepted like that one sect and the fact that the two deities that are hetero-normative with out delving into how homosexuality has a part in the divinity. I hope I do not come across as some LGBT people who complain or end up pushing their beliefs in others faces.


You’re right, not all of them are the same. But majority is. And a religion is categorized not only from what they teach, but from their worshippers as well. Just because 1 individual out of 100 is different, that doesn’t mean anything. And that goes for all theistic “movements”. There’s dogma, and where’s dogma there’s corruption. Many bm’s in here have said in the past how Christianity has some valuable lessons, but even so, at the end its what the believers are putting out there.

If you’re a bm and you’re complaining about what other people say or think, then you need to grow a pair. (Not you DarkestKnight, in general lol) One of the biggest advance as a bm is that…you don’t have to care. You don’t have to fit, you don’t have to be the good guy, the grand example, you don’t have to follow what others are doing. Completely opposite with Wiccans or Christians. So…If you need an approval of what you’re doing, then probably you’re doing it wrong. The only limit we set as bm’s are the ones we set on ourselves. And not our peers or the terror-law of threefold.


I know you meant black magician when you wrote “bm” but the first thing that popped into my head when I read it was bowel movement :rofl::rofl:

It reminded me of some movie where a hippie asks an angry man, in a low voice, “Have you had a bm today?” (yes, I know, I’m weird :stuck_out_tongue: )


Ahahahaha bless you! :joy::stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

P.S. Just so you know, each time I write bm I always read it as “blademaster”… Too much gaming, what can I say?


The same happened to me. We have a Goddess Temple here. Straight women only. You have to have the womb. Needless to say I went only once. I’m bi and I don’t like my friends in the community being excluded just because some rich woman founded the temple and makes the rules. High Priestess through money.