Self iniation in Palo Mayombe website

Ok everybody someone brought this site to my attention that claims you can self ininate into Palo Mayombe. Of course for a fee.This is 100 percent false. In any ATR you can not self iniate into any of them.
Everything is born from something. When you iniate into Palo Ifa Ocha you are born from your godparents into that path. Its not for me to say whats right or wrong or ethics or anything else. All I can say is my experience as a Tata priest of palo this website is an absoloute scam. Ive heard scam too with priest in Africa sending Orishas to people in the mail. The fetish or relic that spirit is in isnt where the Power is. The power is in the ceremony you go through to recieve that Relc,Oracle,container that spirit is in. For example. I recieved my Nagangas. I can be any where in the world and work with those spirits because I went through the ceremonies to recieve them.
Think of it like this. You have to go to the Barber to get a haircut. You cant just wish it to happen. We are spirits confined to the physical realm. This means we are binded to its rules. Like it or not this is the way it is. Just tyring to warn people.

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@jaysalamone

Thank you for sharing. There are many people who think they can self initiate. :roll_eyes::roll_eyes::roll_eyes:

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Can I ask a serious question right here, there are those in communities like Palo Mayombe, Santeria, Haitian Voudon. They claim that you cannot self initiate that you must be blessed, taught and/or initiated by priests, elders, shamans, someone higher up right ?.

If this is the case, what about the first to walk this path, the first Santero, Paleros, Bokor, Hogan and so forth. There was no one to initiate them as they were the first right ?. So who initiated them was it the gods, call them what you will Loas, Orishas and so on.

If that’s the case and they are the source of it all, which by any logic they should and would be, then why can’t someone go directly to these entities and self initiate. Cause it just seems like traditional dogma that holds you back, let’s even use a theoretical example.

Let’s say tomorrow we all lived a apocalyptic type of earth, all the priests, chiefs and so forth of these religions/paths are gone. Let’s just say that happens, then let’s say someone wants to be initiated, you’re basically saying they cannot.
This also suggests the first to walk these paths are actually self initiated right ?, so why can’t we.

What is the actual logic behind this, without any the traditional sacred dogma, which only seems to hold many back. What is the reason and the logic behind anything of it, I’m asking out of curiosity, it is my nature as a black magician to understand such a thing.

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@C.Kendall

You make valid points in your posting. From personal experience, it all goes back to traditional Sacred dogma. There is also discrimination towards “outsiders”.

Yeah from what I understand it is the people in the community that discriminate against outsiders, like when people say you have to be from a certain place or have a certain skin pigmentation, race or lineage.

Seems kind of ridiculous to me since this is a spiritual system and path, our souls have no country origin, our souls have no skin pigmentation. It is prejudice and it’s as simple as that, I know a very young African American who works with the Norse gods. He works with them with such a in-depth commitment, devotion and knowledge more than most white people I have seen. Now of course I’m not going to get into race cause as far as I’m concerned we are all the same.

What I am saying is someone who is black can work with the gods of Norse, so why should it be any different the other way around.

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@C.Kendall

That’s the way things are within certain cultures. People are going to continue to follow tradition. I understand where you are coming from. That’s the way things are and it is very difficult to change people’s minds.

Well I have called on those entities that many state “You have to be initiated” before you work with them.

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They appeared, answered and gave me exactly what I asked for.

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Moral of the story, self initiation is absolutely usable.

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I often wonder if initiation in the traditional sense serves as a more towards access to the gods of said system or to the living culture and people behind them. I personally lean more towards the latter, much like how coming of age ceremonies opens access to young individuals into the privileges and responsible of an adult member of that particular group.

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@C.Kendall

If the person feels that self initiation is possible they should take that route. But, they should avoid paying web sites that claim they can initiate the person.

Thats all Im saying. Im not trying to debate if its right or wrong. Honsetly being in the religion and knowing how it works. I think its delusional to self iniatiate but its up to u

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The Gods don’t make or reveal religion, the loa, the Orishas and such didn’t create the religion at all, people did and over the years people complicated it. Using symbolism and special ceremonies and adopting them later on as social traditions, eventually becoming sacred.

Yet communion with the gods is spiritual not religious, as religion is merely a specific set of organised beliefs and practices, shared by a group or a community. Spirituality however is more of an much more broader spectrum of the nature of spirit and the gods.

Spirituality needs no master, priest or someone who initiates you, these traditions work so well because if you really dissect it, the religious practices and over the top ceremonies, stimulate the mind and uses many subtle triggers which can give you access to “the spiritual” or “divine” whatever you want to call it.

Yet a individual can merely do this by closing ones eyes and meditating, sometimes actually surpassing a huge group ritual, by doing less they achieve more. The reason you wouldn’t suggest self initiation is cause you have a religious view, while many of us here have a spiritual view. Not bashing your beliefs either, I mean no disrespect yet it religion is restricting whilst spirituality is virtually limitless and has no boundaries, no limits, no restrictions.

Spirituality by many is seen as dark and blasphemous because the spiritual individual surpasses certain feats which are deemed wrong or impossible by the religious. Just like many who say you can’t self initiate yet, it must be possible how else would the first practitioner have entered.

I choose to go directly to the gods and bring them directly to me, instead of going to priests or priestesses or whatever fancy title they use these days. Cutting out the middle man and going directly to the source of all of it, this is the nature of a black magician no matter what path, paradigm, pantheon or system we enter.

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Im all about tradition. So im the wrong one to talk to. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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I think we’re looking at the difference between the religion, the lineage-based human tradition, and the practice of magick, which works with some of those spirits on a less formal basis, and without the lifelong commitment.

I don’t equate my work with Hathor to that of an Egyptian priest back in the day, he would be residing on temple property, living her service 24/7, I’m devoted to her but there’s no major commitment in the same way. :thinking:

Both have their place and value but the moment someone starts claiming titles that are earned within a living tradition, I think that’s when fur flies, and honestly it’s silly. I work with Lwa, that does NOT make me a Mambo and nor would, or should, I ever start to claim that title.

And I’ve seen magick start to slide the long-established qualities and attributes of spirits, often incorporating lazy pop-culture depictions, and usually towards fluff-bunny and reductionist outcomes where all beings are “masks of” one another, or protect the very animals they used to require as blood sacrifices, so keeping as many distinct original lineages alive as possible seems, to me, to be useful: it takes nothing from the practice of magick, but does preserve information in its original form, which has been peer-tested over a longer period.

It’s also notable that the Abrahamic religions attacked honouring ones own spiritual traditions, and one’s own ancestors, as the earliest part of their power grab.

So anything which seeks to reduce and attack those inheritances in similar ways, may be an unwitting cultural programme being brought within the practice of magick, and towards that same “One True™ Way” goal, which uproots people and slowly begins to pare away their spiritual roots and connections. I did a post about that process previously, here. :thinking:

So we have two different streams, the traditional religious, and the magickal non-conformist, both useful and both valid, no need to collapse that and reduce everything down to a “One True™ Way” IMO. :man_shrugging:

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Hello, new here so, by way of introduction, I am a white male in my fifties from Irish/ Scandinavian / Native Americam ancestry, and a Tata Nkisi Malongo from Palo Monte and an Olorisha from traditional houses in both. In response to the self initiation question; in Palo you are scratched over the pot you are born from and in Ocha your pot is born from the pot of the one who births yours. Without the proper ritual structure, you will not be recognized as legit by either the community, and all ATR’s are all about community, or the spirits. If you have ever been in front of a real nganga in the nso or Orisha at a tambor, you know the recognition I mean. Or better yet, having the proper divinations after higher initiations and have the consejos tell you things that later come true…uniquely life altering things.
Can non-initistes propitiate spirits, orisha, loa…sure, at their place in nature and with simple prayers and offerings, but nothing more. If you do not have license, you cannot do it.
Can you try to? Sure. Can you have some success? sure. Can you be misled, attract spirits not good for you? oh yeah. Can you literally jack your life, or someone elses life up? Damn straight. There is no shortcut, apology given or concern for moral acceptance in any non African based way of being…sorry. Say what you want, those are facts you can’t get around.

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Welcome @Imjaded It is a rule of this forum for all new members to properly introduce themselves, so please click the link below and tell us about yourself and any experience you have in magick, such as what you practice, how long you have practiced, areas of interest, etc:

intro3

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Well I don’t accept that, I don’t believe that, spirituality isn’t set in stone, it’s malleable what you are talking about Is a religious approach which is quite limited and dogmatic in its approach.

Anything can be evoked and called, any god, goddess, demon, angel, elemental, planetary spirit and so forth can be conjured in a beholdable form and speak in a understandable voice. Channel usable and applicable information from them and then send them out into the world, to manifest a desire that I have in my mind.

So I could do that even with a Orisha, Loa and so forth using specific things from the culture that they originate from, only the usable methods. Not the religious and restricted methods, so what you are essentially saying is you walk a religious path, you are religious.

Yet I am not religious, I am not talking about religion, I am talking about practical spirituality which is actually beneficial and usable.

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I knw a old white guy who study a year tis in 1 year he learn santeria and autentic voodos stuff from Haitians. It works, also s. Rob a uk guy has a few voodos stuff mix. And dnt forget the broswky guy who mix gods know wat and call palo magik which peopls say its a mix of results. And peopls here who do papa legba leggua, ochun and work for them whutout iniciacion… Me i stick whit capoeira.

C. Kendall,
As others have mentioned, we can agree to disagree on that. I do not view it as practicing a religion, it is living a way of life. These practices have aspects of religion, spirituality, practical advice, magic, cognitive behavioral therapy, community involvement, you name it.
The biggest fallacy with your logic is that it comes from a priveleged western civilization background. I am pushing 60 and this has been my life longer than it has not. In my experience, you aren’t anything until you have been humbled, at rock bottom, and walked through the fires of transformation to be born anew, both Palo and Ocha were like that.
The idea that you can just whip ‘em up & send them out to manifest what you want or have in your head without proper pact and initiation is arrogant, uneducated and offensive to those of us who have and do.
Again, that’s just the way it is.
I do agree that spirituality is, can be, and should be accessable, within the specific framework…and in our way of thinking, it is the first step in real develooment. A persons’ ancestor and guiding spirits are yours and always there for you, free to access, and your best defense.

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