Hello …
Goetia is a magic system in which the devil is dominated through
power of words … the magician is
the ruler of the spirit
the Demonolatry system is different, the devil is invoked, the magician is a friend of the devil
on working with demons … what you guys think about Goetia? can evoke a demon not listed in 72 of Solomon? example, can evoke
ROSIER in a ritual goetic?
? please
[quote=“andremeleck, post:1, topic:4745”]Goetia is a magic system in which the devil is dominated through
power of words … the magician is
the ruler of the spirit
the Demonolatry system is different, the devil is invoked, the magician is a friend of the devil
on working with demons … what you guys think about Goetia? can evoke a demon not listed in 72 of Solomon? example, can evoke
ROSIER in a ritual goetic?[/quote]
Well the system in the Goetia is very specific, but if you’re asking can you evoke demons through force of will alone (and not through alliance with the devil - I don’t know much about the demonolatry system) - then in my experience the answer is yes.
[quote=“Lady Eva, post:3, topic:4745”][quote=“andremeleck, post:1, topic:4745”]Goetia is a magic system in which the devil is dominated through
power of words … the magician is
the ruler of the spirit
the Demonolatry system is different, the devil is invoked, the magician is a friend of the devil
on working with demons … what you guys think about Goetia? can evoke a demon not listed in 72 of Solomon? example, can evoke
ROSIER in a ritual goetic?[/quote]
Well the system in the Goetia is very specific, but if you’re asking can you evoke demons through force of will alone (and not through alliance with the devil - I don’t know much about the demonolatry system) - then in my experience the answer is yes.[/quote]
Lady Eva which system do you use? could give a sample. I am studying various systems … I always have good results with goetia system, but some demons are not listed in 72 of Solomon. Rosier as for example
My system is based on haphazard stuff I picked up when I was very young and probably wouldn’t be that much use to you, but if you get good results using the system in the Goetia why not call on a spirit listed there and ask him to be your advisor?
I’ve found that getting advice from spirits about spirits beats any other method, so in your situation that’s what I’d do - I guess that would be my system in fact, since I tend to listen to them more than books as a general rule.
[quote=“Lady Eva, post:5, topic:4745”]My system is based on haphazard stuff I picked up when I was very young and probably wouldn’t be that much use to you, but if you get good results using the system in the Goetia why not call on a spirit listed there and ask him to be your advisor?
I’ve found that getting advice from spirits about spirits beats any other method, so in your situation that’s what I’d do - I guess that would be my system in fact, since I tend to listen to them more than books as a general rule.[/quote]
Yes I understand … I believe it is the best
the difference between systems … I have doubts. is that in Goetia … the spirits are forced to perform tasks through the names of God in goetia the spirits are not worshiped
and other systems … the spirits are worshiped …
then certainly not know what is the most powerful system … the adoration of the demons system or system not worship (tying)
[quote=“andremeleck, post:6, topic:4745”]and other systems … the spirits are worshiped …
then certainly not know what is the most powerful system … the adoration of the demons system or system not worship (tying)[/quote]
It’s certainly not necessary to worship demons in all other systems except Goetia, I certainly don’t (though I treat them with respect and a posotive attitude) and demonlatry seems to be its own system, and not a model for all other methods out there.
So in my opinion it’s not the case that, either 1. in Goetia you worship God, and compel spirits, or 2. in others, you worship demons and compel them in the name of a demonic kind of overlord instead (again apologies because my understanding of demonolatry is pretty weak) - it’s possible to just be you, and work with them on the basis of that, no God or external overlords necessary.
At least, that’s my experience, although you will need to have a sense of your own rightful authority underlying this, even if you don’t use it or state it very often - the core belief that you have the right to command demons is essential.
I was tested on that by Belial when I threw myself into working with demonic forces, so I feel quite strongly that the belief needs to be there.
[quote author=Lady Eva link=topic=4964.msg58512#msg58512 date=1424101126]
[quote=“andremeleck, post:6, topic:4745”]and other systems … the spirits are worshiped …
then certainly not know what is the most powerful system … the adoration of the demons system or system not worship (tying)
It’s certainly not necessary to worship demons in all other systems except Goetia, …
…the core belief that you have the right to command demons is essential.[/quote]
ok. this is the point … I believe … I was unsure about worship devils or command demons …
you helped me a lot, thank you
Belial’s test for me was to take over a dream - not a lucid dream - and attack me with entities of filth and disease to see what I’d do. I’d never worked with him before and he made damned sure I caught his name and saw that he was commanding these beings.
There was a lot of psycholgical stuff I hadn’t realised I carried, still, at that point (including the vague back-of-the-head belief “this MIGHT not be real”) and I had to kind of overcome it all in short order and command the dirty little buggers back down into the pit he’d opened up - I woke up at one point and the attack was ongoing, one of them had attached to my face and was pulling my face into a kind of rigid grimace that I was completely unable to fix using normal waking consciousness, and I had to go back into the dream and start kicking some ass.
I appear to have passed the test and he’s been part of my life ever since, and one of the few spirits I really trust (at least in specific areas) and also like, but that’s a bit off-topic - my point was that he threw me into a situation where I had to find and exercise that internal command over a large horde of beings, and while I’d mustered it before when I did a lot of healing work, that was usually with same vague idea I was serving some external value system than just my own desire to have things go a certain way.
I was also on a very RHP journey for quite a long time (I detailed that here if you’re interested) so most of my prior work had come through either desperation, when I was younger, or some vague feeling that there was something wrong with earth/the physical planes, and something wrong with me, and that I therefore only had a limited right to enact major changes on things.
Although I was working to leave that behind and had made a lot of progress, the hands-on demonstration he gave me was that I had the divinity within anyway to command darkness, and that in some circumstances, if I wanted to work heavily with demons and darker forces, I would need to locate that internal sovereign power and enact it with the same degree of wrath that any classical “angry god” could muster up.
If you give some consideration to what your personally feel you’re serving when you perform an evocation, that might be helpful: as far as I know the idea behind Solomonic magick is that certain demons wish to be returned to the state of grace that they had before they fell through rebelling against God, and that humans commanding them gives them a chance to earn that grace back since mankind is made in the image of God, and, when evocation is performed using Divine authority, that gives them a chance to earn back a little good credit (or whatever) through obedience to that name, and also that they will be compelled to tempt the magician to fall himself if he’s not careful enough (sorry if I generalised a bit there).
I don’t believe that myself, so for me to command demons on the basis I’m playing a role in their redemption and also aligned with that godform would make no sense, and also I don’t believe in making a pact in which I’m underneath the authority of, or wishing to gain the approval of, some higher being of darkness…
I am enough.
That, I think, is the difference between modern forms of evocation and especially (though not exclusively) the modern forms that are considered LHP, in contrast to the older methods where you have to get in good with a more powerful figure (God or the devil) who’s mostly considered external to yourself, and capable of denying you that right on moral or other grounds - for example, the instructions in some grimoires to be cleansed, celibate, avoid certain foods and so on before performing an evocation.
For this test I was asleep in bed (sleep is considered unclean and weak in some eastern RHP philosophies), slick with the night’s sweat still on me, with a smelly old dog sprawled at my feet, and had recently been eating meat, having sex, etc., and that was a far cry from the ascetic guidelines in a lot of grimoires, and yet those filthy little things were just as bound to compel when I realised what it would take to bind them.
Although I called on the goddess Isis for advice, she didn’t give anything to me, or initiate me like some benefactor handing out power or accreditation - she just reminded me, if anything, of the power that we all have, and it felt like remembering and not somehow being upgraded by someone else.
That’s why I believe in the power of modern forms of evocation in which you use your own innate godhood to command, and not that of some external force, anyway - sorry if my answer ran on but I wanted to give me opinions (and they’re only that, of course) some context by providing the experience that led me to be so certain of this ability, which lies within each of us if we just remember our true nature. 
very good your story is wonderful and nutritious
“The hands-on demonstration he just gave me was que I had the divinity Within anyway to command darkness,” yes great
"The far as I know the idea behind Solomonic magick is That Certain demons wish to be returned to the state of grace que They Had Before They fell through rebelling against God, and humans que commanding Them Gives Them a chance to earn back since que grace mankind is made in the image of God, and, When evocation is Performed using Divine authority, que Gives Them a chance to earn back a little good credit (or whatever) through obedience to que name, "
I may be wrong, but They only fall in … "apocalypse '… They still did not fall
you is excellent … loved your answer helped me a lot …
As far as I know the idea behind Solomonic magick is That Certain demons wish to be returned to the state of grace que They Had Before They fell through rebelling against God, and humans que commanding Them Gives Them a chance to earn back since que grace mankind is made in the image of God, and, When evocation is Performed using Divine authority, que Gives Them a chance to earn back a little good credit (or whatever) through obedience to que name, "
I may be wrong, but They only fall in … "apocalypse '… They still did not fall
If I may jump in. Yes, as Lady Eva said, she was generalising and the whole thing could be explained more in detail. I’ll come back in, maybe and write some more about that.
But a lot of Eva’s explanation is spot on. Those who want to go back are best contacted using the Divine Names, as there are a lot of them who regretted rebelling and would rather go back to being obedient to God and working with the other Angels in the divine ordinate way.
The fall is not in the Apocalypse, I am afraid. The Apocalypse talks a lot about the future, while the fall happened right at the beginning.Which is when the Angels who are now called the Renegades, or Rebel Angels decided to be gods in their own right and not have to submit to the One we call the Superior Eternal being, God the Supreme Creator.
So you see, they set up their own empire, which EA calls the Infernal Empire. I must also say that it is an empire that until further developments, God decided to recognize. This is a very profound teaching that I cannot expound on a short post like this.
But God acknowledged the Infernam Empire, and there are even cooperation arrangements in existence when it comes to Human beings attempting to ascend and to realize their Divinity here on Earth. So you find that people on the Right Hand Path have to use the powers of those same fallen ones here on Earth, when they have realized themselves (through many different Solomonic systems of ascent).
And you will also see that the same cooperation arrangement exists when those of the Left Hand Path ascend and seek their type of Divine Realization; in that, even when they have stated that they do not want to have the God, Divine being lording it over them, they are also allowed to work with high ranking Archangels like Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel, who did not fall or rebel against God.
The apocalypse will come because it is said that the battle that took place at the beginning will be fought again for a very final decision.
Meanwhile, man stand in a very special position and also a not specially enviable one, because according to the Law, we must have a veil before our eyes, which hides our Divinity when we’ transmigrate.
For that we have sort of forgotten what we were at our creation, and the kind of powers we had.
But by that I mean, we all have God within us, a divine spark we were created with but which is masked. That gives us the fair opportunity to choose the side we want to be on, here on Earth as we ascend.
We can choose to be faithful to God, having Him above us. We can also freely choose to join those who rebelled, seeing things their way. And you see here on this Forum, there are people of both leanings trying to better themselves and to ascend; being on the RHP and the LHP.
Genesis 2: 9
And the LORD God made the earth sprout every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil
God created evil and evil is darkness … (goetic espirits and all evil spirits)
“Apocalypse” 12: 9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
here, at the end of the Bible, when John
senile, having visions, affected by the martyrdom of a life of persecution and reclusive in
a dark cave in the distant island of Patmos, which implies that in the "snake
Old "is Satan.
Genesis 3: 1-5
1 - the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the
LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, No.
eat of every tree of the garden? 2 - And the woman said to the serpent, the fruit
the trees of the garden eat, 3 - But of the tree which is in the middle
the garden, God said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it lest
ye die. 4 - And the serpent said to the woman shall not surely die. 5 Because God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will open and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
The serpent (satan) was the beginning of creation and was created by God in “GENESIS” … there was no fall, it is only in Apocalypse
The Hebrew words הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר (Helel ben Shaḥar, “day-star, son of the morning”)[2][24] in Isaiah 14:12 are part of a prophetic vision against an oppressive king of Babylon.[51] Jewish exegesis of Isaiah 14:12–15 took a humanistic approach by identifying the king of Babylon as Nebuchadnezzar II.[52] Verse 20 says that this king of Babylon will not be “joined with them [all the kings of the nations] in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, thou hast slain thy people; the seed of evil-doers shall not be named for ever”, but rather be cast out of the grave, while “All the kings of the nations, all of them, sleep in glory, every one in his own house”.[24][53]
The term appears in the context of an oracle against a dead king of Babylon,[25] who is addressed as הילל בן שחר (hêlêl ben šāḥar),[26][27] rendered by the King James Version as “O Lucifer, son of the morning!” and by others as “morning star, son of the dawn”.
In a modern translation from the original Hebrew, the passage in which the phrase “Lucifer” or “morning star” occurs begins with the statement: “On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labour forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!”[28] After describing the death of the king, the taunt continues:
“How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: ‘Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?’”[29]
J. Carl Laney has pointed out that in the final verses here quoted, the king of Babylon is described not as a god or an angel but as a man.[30][31]
For the unnamed[32] “king of Babylon” a wide range of identifications have been proposed.[33] They include a Babylonian ruler of the prophet Isaiah’s own time[33] the later Nebuchadnezzar II, under whom the Babylonian captivity of the Jews began, or Nabonidus,[33][34] and the Assyrian kings Tiglath-Pileser, Sargon II and Sennacherib.[30][33][35] Herbert Wolf held that the “king of Babylon” was not a specific ruler but a generic representation of the whole line of rulers.[36]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer[/url]
for this reason I believe that there was no fall … and Satan was created by God, was not a good angel and rebelled against the creator
And for that reason I believe that there was no fall … and Satan was created by God, was not a good angel and rebelled against the creator
[/quote]
Andremelek,
May I refer you the book THE SACRED AND THE PROFANE written by Rabbi Desiree Regine Ntolo
Everything you just wrote about is deeply expounded in it. This Rabbi is not an Orthodox Jew, so you’ll be very surprised at what is said. Much similar to the Urantia story, by the way!
thank you Mila
I don’t mean to go off the main topic of this thread but if you are interested in the fall there are a couple of sources that few people mention which go into great detail about the fall.
I’ll mention one that I think many will be awed by with its scope and detail. It is called the Urantia Book. Which refers to the fall as the “Lucifer Rebellion”. And it goes into great detail about the fall. The most detail I have ever read or heard. It could be found with a simple search on youtube. Just look up “Urantia Book” and “Lucifer Rebellion”.
I have just been readin posts on Belial who in the begining of his relationship with a new magickian tends to test them.
I had a worrying experience about two weeks ago.
I prpared to summon Belial for some advice and ritual work. I went about setting everything up, and drawing his sigil into the floor to do the ritual. I hadn’t opened the sigil or started the ritual, shortly after this I begajn to feel extra-ordinarily tired. So I lay down on my bed which was near by the ritual area. At almost exactly 12am I woke up desparate to go to the bathroom, and I didn’t make it. I only made it to the shower and emptied my stomach of everything in it. I than tried to shower and blacked out. A few minutes later I woke up, I couldn’t get up. Still evacuating… Bad man, then I tried to get up, my body allowed me to wash and then I blacked out again!
This time with serious injury, I bruised bones inside my body. The pain was unbelieveable, I thought momentarily that I was going to die in that shower.
I was in pain and I called out to Azazel, who I had asked to be my guide in the past with great success, and I consider him to be my bodygaurd and gaurdian angel… Some how a few minutes later I summoned the strength to stand. And I was driven to wipe out the sigil I had drawn for Belial before laying my very battered body on the bed. I slept a few more hours and woke up to return to the ritual space, trying to do the ritual even though I could barely move. My god it was aweful, but I managed to perform it by some miracle.
Something in the back of my mind said to me, Belial did this to you. I didn’t know that he tests people like this. He can be pretty sadistic it seems. But anyway, in the ritual he instructed me to charge a ring and dedicate it to him. That he would assist me. But I was also warned not to call him frivilously.
I did another ritual with him yesterday.I felt good after, no injuries, but I keep getting this feeling this guy wants blood from me.
Azazel has always been sparing with the blood Belial not so much. Anyone got an opinion or experience to share?
Yes. The body innury was due to circumstance. However I understand the tiredness very well as. Go through it frequently. I have a special shamanick relationship with Belial, as I am merged very intimately with his energy near the core level. Therefore learning for me happens on a much different level with Evokation as I live with it everyday 24/7. When you feel the draining effect that is due to becoming adjusted to the energy. What is happening is happening on both a mental, energetic and Biological level. Think of it as the energy of yourself deconstructing and rebuilding into a new form like as in some sort of Shapeshifting. Since I was the first to make this specific pact on this level I know about it very well. It is a specific knowledge he taught me that people who think they know Belial dont know he is even capable of this as they think he is all about politics. Lol
Yes. I agree.