Proof of Heaven


#1

Obviously - there is no proof of heaven. But this Christian super hero apparently had an NDE, and was shown all this miraculous shit about what heaven is like etc. He’s been on Oprah and the usual ring of B.S.
So, one of my old teachers posts this:
http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/
It’s all the usual Christian bs - believe something without proof kinda shit. But what gets me, is that my old instructors purportedly have mastered astral projection, their internal energy, they’ve apparently reached the ultimate experience, and she even stated - after my subtle rebuttal, " Then you will find out for yourselves what it’s all about, as I have and others."
I don’t doubt her experience - but what I question is, how in hell do even high level magicians get dooped by experience? I mean, c’mon, Jesus was a magician, not the savior of the world. He may have had a quest unlike other magicians, but it wasn’t to open the gates of heaven to us. I mean - of course I can’t say that for sure - because I don’t know for sure. But I can say - the the most powerful magicians in history who’ve been there and back do not report a Jesus in the center of it all.
And somebody who’s so solidly sold on their experience is going to take that to their grave. So - the question is: How do we make sure we don’t fall into a similar trap?


#2

My sister’s friend is a christian minister and has had several NDE’s. She went to a reality where people had to work, sleep, eat and go to church. Their bodies were also very dense and it was virtually the same as here on Earth (minus sickness and death). Other christians have mentioned having transparent bodies and not having to work or eat. If your mind believes it, you will probably experience it.

I like Robert Monroe’s and William Buhlman’s take on the matter, where all non physical reality is thought responsive. The Astral plane reportedly full of belief system territories that differ from one another. When you die you go to an area/kingdom/plane that resonates with your belief system. Christian of this belief comes here, christian of that belief goes over there. And each one believing its the one and only reality in existence. There are buddhist areas, hindu areas… infinite realities for the religious and non religious. You can even have your own reality with family or whatever.

William Buhlman stated that was the reason soul travel was so important… to get past all the illusions of the Astral and to get to the source. At least then when you die, you will have the experience and knowledge to do and go wherever you wish.


#3

Ah…yes…what awaits after death…the one million question…gee…I need to deprogram myself…have read too many Allan Kardec`s books…


#4

[quote=“DK The Mage, post:1, topic:673”]but what I question is, how in hell do even high level magicians get dooped by experience? I mean, c’mon, Jesus was a magician, not the savior of the world. He may have had a quest unlike other magicians, but it wasn’t to open the gates of heaven to us. I mean - of course I can’t say that for sure - because I don’t know for sure. But I can say - the the most powerful magicians in history who’ve been there and back do not report a Jesus in the center of it all.
And somebody who’s so solidly sold on their experience is going to take that to their grave. So - the question is: How do we make sure we don’t fall into a similar trap?[/quote]

yeah I sometimes wonder about this, alot of people who should know better end up going into mainstream christianity and I always wonder why that is. Knew a girl from the astral dynamics forum who converted into being a bible thumper, part of it was because she had a run in with demons on the astral. If only people didnt think so two dimensionally about this sort of thing.


#5

Yeah, it’s just crazy that people go around claiming that this or that is the truth because that’s what their experience is. I mean - c’mon.
At any rate - this brings to mind the question that - if that is the case - how do we know for certain that when we join with source, or merge with the god consciousness, that, even though it may be an intense experience - how can we be absolutely certain that it’s not a fabrication of the experience because it’s what we’re expecting - just like the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
I mean - when they come back, they’re absolutely convinced of their spiritual experience. Likewise, so is the believer of the All. The person who experiences nirvana or enlightenment? Though, I know they’re not “technically” the same thing. But you get my point. At what point can we actually say, "that was intense, and it was very very real. In fact, I cannot deny it. However, is it possible that it is just another experience brought on by expectation and belief?"
That’s the real question.


#6

[quote=“DK The Mage, post:5, topic:673”]At what point can we actually say, "that was intense, and it was very very real. In fact, I cannot deny it. However, is it possible that it is just another experience brought on by expectation and belief?"
That’s the real question.[/quote]

If it was an experience, it was truth. What more do you need? Is the truth you’re pointing at, the answer to the question “what happens when we die?” You’re right - it is hard to “know”. But it is hard to deny the truth of your experience: the bliss, the intensity, the ____.


#7

[quote=“redcircle, post:6, topic:673”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:5, topic:673”]At what point can we actually say, "that was intense, and it was very very real. In fact, I cannot deny it. However, is it possible that it is just another experience brought on by expectation and belief?"
That’s the real question.[/quote]

If it was an experience, it was truth. What more do you need? Is the truth you’re pointing at, the answer to the question “what happens when we die?” You’re right - it is hard to “know”. But it is hard to deny the truth of your experience: the bliss, the intensity, the ____.[/quote]

I see your point - but I only see part of it. There is only one truth to the answer of “What is the universe? How does it function? What is the nexus of all creation? What is creation?” If your experience is some God because that’s what your belief system perpetuates - and if you meet a God, which happens to actually be a fabrication of the collective minds of that particular faith - then, I cannot in an rational way say that was truth. The experience itself, I guess I can say it was a “true experience” but the answers that we all seek - no way can I say that was truth.


#8

[quote=“DK The Mage, post:7, topic:673”][quote=“redcircle, post:6, topic:673”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:5, topic:673”]At what point can we actually say, "that was intense, and it was very very real. In fact, I cannot deny it. However, is it possible that it is just another experience brought on by expectation and belief?"
That’s the real question.[/quote]

If it was an experience, it was truth. What more do you need? Is the truth you’re pointing at, the answer to the question “what happens when we die?” You’re right - it is hard to “know”. But it is hard to deny the truth of your experience: the bliss, the intensity, the ____.[/quote]

I see your point - but I only see part of it. There is only one truth to the answer of “What is the universe? How does it function? What is the nexus of all creation? What is creation?” If your experience is some God because that’s what your belief system perpetuates - and if you meet a God, which happens to actually be a fabrication of the collective minds of that particular faith - then, I cannot in an rational way say that was truth. The experience itself, I guess I can say it was a “true experience” but the answers that we all seek - no way can I say that was truth.[/quote]

Well Azazel did say that the infernal hierachy is the operator followed by the rest of the universe.

In the carlos casteneda books the old seers would try to see what the source really was and went crazy trying to do that.


#9

[quote=“defectron, post:8, topic:673”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:7, topic:673”][quote=“redcircle, post:6, topic:673”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:5, topic:673”]At what point can we actually say, "that was intense, and it was very very real. In fact, I cannot deny it. However, is it possible that it is just another experience brought on by expectation and belief?"
That’s the real question.[/quote]

If it was an experience, it was truth. What more do you need? Is the truth you’re pointing at, the answer to the question “what happens when we die?” You’re right - it is hard to “know”. But it is hard to deny the truth of your experience: the bliss, the intensity, the ____.[/quote]

I see your point - but I only see part of it. There is only one truth to the answer of “What is the universe? How does it function? What is the nexus of all creation? What is creation?” If your experience is some God because that’s what your belief system perpetuates - and if you meet a God, which happens to actually be a fabrication of the collective minds of that particular faith - then, I cannot in an rational way say that was truth. The experience itself, I guess I can say it was a “true experience” but the answers that we all seek - no way can I say that was truth.[/quote]

Well Azazel did say that the infernal hierachy is the operator followed by the rest of the universe.

In the carlos casteneda books the old seers would try to see what the source really was and went crazy trying to do that.[/quote]

I’ve thought about this as well. Like, all subjective experiences are truth all the way up. But at some point, there has to be some way for it all to fit together.
I do understand the Azazel quote though as much the same way you do. However, he is speaking of the infernal hierarchy - which may or may not dismiss other spiritual structures of creation and destruction.
It’s still quite confusing. And, lately I’ve been wary of the Castaneda books- I think they may be one of those “truth mixed with falsehoods” type accounts. Castaneda, as I am coming to find out, was a fucking Joseph Smith-like whack job that raped chicks (apparently) and talked a bunch of them into suicide. Still - I can’t judge by just that. Though, the testimonies and accounts are quite startling. I still wonder how he got his hands on such secret and solid knowledge concerning dreaming and the assemblage point.
But yea - I would think - there should be some nexus of reality or some subjective flux that ties it all together. But I could be wrong. It could very well be some strange “all things are truth” universe that somehow lets everything be true without having a paradox collapse it all. But that, would be extremely hard to fathom. Though I guess all things are, at the very least, possible.


#10

[quote=“DK The Mage, post:9, topic:673”][quote=“defectron, post:8, topic:673”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:7, topic:673”][quote=“redcircle, post:6, topic:673”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:5, topic:673”]At what point can we actually say, "that was intense, and it was very very real. In fact, I cannot deny it. However, is it possible that it is just another experience brought on by expectation and belief?"
That’s the real question.[/quote]

If it was an experience, it was truth. What more do you need? Is the truth you’re pointing at, the answer to the question “what happens when we die?” You’re right - it is hard to “know”. But it is hard to deny the truth of your experience: the bliss, the intensity, the ____.[/quote]

I see your point - but I only see part of it. There is only one truth to the answer of “What is the universe? How does it function? What is the nexus of all creation? What is creation?” If your experience is some God because that’s what your belief system perpetuates - and if you meet a God, which happens to actually be a fabrication of the collective minds of that particular faith - then, I cannot in an rational way say that was truth. The experience itself, I guess I can say it was a “true experience” but the answers that we all seek - no way can I say that was truth.[/quote]

Well Azazel did say that the infernal hierachy is the operator followed by the rest of the universe.

In the carlos casteneda books the old seers would try to see what the source really was and went crazy trying to do that.[/quote]

I’ve thought about this as well. Like, all subjective experiences are truth all the way up. But at some point, there has to be some way for it all to fit together.
I do understand the Azazel quote though as much the same way you do. However, he is speaking of the infernal hierarchy - which may or may not dismiss other spiritual structures of creation and destruction.
It’s still quite confusing. And, lately I’ve been wary of the Castaneda books- I think they may be one of those “truth mixed with falsehoods” type accounts. Castaneda, as I am coming to find out, was a fucking Joseph Smith-like whack job that raped chicks (apparently) and talked a bunch of them into suicide. Still - I can’t judge by just that. Though, the testimonies and accounts are quite startling. I still wonder how he got his hands on such secret and solid knowledge concerning dreaming and the assemblage point.
But yea - I would think - there should be some nexus of reality or some subjective flux that ties it all together. But I could be wrong. It could very well be some strange “all things are truth” universe that somehow lets everything be true without having a paradox collapse it all. But that, would be extremely hard to fathom. Though I guess all things are, at the very least, possible.[/quote]

Well personally I believe all possibilities are manifest in reality somewhere. Whatever you might think of exists somewhere in some version of reality. I plan to start putting this to the test in the near future.


#11

Have you guys read Stephen Hawking’s “The Grand Design” yet? I use his model of the multiverse as a base for any philosophy concerning objective reality. He argues that multiple realities coexist and operate independently of one another, yet are all absolute truth. He also presents mathematical and scientific evidence for multiple dimensions. So I would think that with an infinite universe and an infinite number of dimensions, everything is possible. Seems like Infinity is the only absolute truth. Look in any direction, large, small, or dimension and it’s always an infinite number.

That said, I would think that there are more than one spiritual kingdoms. I think it’s more than possible for a Christian Kingdom of Heaven to exist. Though I doubt the spirit controlling the realm is the all powerful, all encompassing force of the universe. Maybe all of these kingdoms tie together with the infernal undercurrent that Azazel speaks of. Maybe the source is the sum of all its parts operating both independently and in conjunction with everything else in existence. Just my thoughts.

ZachD555


#12

There is a place where all paradoxes become united
There is a place where all paths become one road
There is a place where I realise that I know everything and that it all means nothing
Truth becomes variable and situation dependent, any idea that is well thought out becomes plausible and is a perfect piece of the puzzle.

And then I realise at the center of it all the only constant is me, not my body or my ego but the observer, that which sits behind, the unchanging and eternal and suddenly I start writing my own truth as I see fit to meet my needs at the time. Its experimental and sometimes I forget but it always seems to work out.

Or at least, that has been my experience and really, what else do I have to go by? somebody else’s experience?


#13

[quote=“ZachD555, post:11, topic:673”]Have you guys read Stephen Hawking’s “The Grand Design” yet? I use his model of the multiverse as a base for any philosophy concerning objective reality. He argues that multiple realities coexist and operate independently of one another, yet are all absolute truth. He also presents mathematical and scientific evidence for multiple dimensions. So I would think that with an infinite universe and an infinite number of dimensions, everything is possible. Seems like Infinity is the only absolute truth. Look in any direction, large, small, or dimension and it’s always an infinite number.

That said, I would think that there are more than one spiritual kingdoms. I think it’s more than possible for a Christian Kingdom of Heaven to exist. Though I doubt the spirit controlling the realm is the all powerful, all encompassing force of the universe. Maybe all of these kingdoms tie together with the infernal undercurrent that Azazel speaks of. Maybe the source is the sum of all its parts operating both independently and in conjunction with everything else in existence. Just my thoughts.

ZachD555[/quote]

lol - of course there’s gotta be some reality where Jesus is the son of God - but he can’t be the son of the source. Because source is the source of all things that are, were and ever will be, all things that never were, are not, and never will be. The source of all parallel worlds, the source of the positive and negative. The source of all sources. The one - the only - the center and the everywhere. No matter what reality you’re in or what parallel dimension, or what faith following what god in what dimension of what plane in what kingdom of whatever universe - the fact is there can only and ever be one source. Because if there were two sources, there would have to have been a source for those two sources to have sprung - thus, the one source. And if the two sources sprung independently from some stratum - the stratum would have come into being through some other source - thus, again - a singular source. So, while there are multiple possibilities with multiple gods and theologies, as well as the very real possibility of a god who decides to actual create his own universe - it doesn’t matter - because that would all have come from the same source.
But it is - just so mind blowing sometimes. Though, a christian god may fit into the picture as a literal big white dude with a white beard in some cloud that created everything - then it would have had to either be the personality of the source made manifest by its own choice. But, then, one would have to wonder, to what purpose would source decide to bring it’s “personality” into limited being into only one of the infinite realities?
I know I know - we can take this to all extremes and make up a fantastic amount of possibilities.
But, that’s my point. Is it not possible for there to be an experience out there that mimics merging with source? And if there was, how would one tell?


#14

I don’t think this follows, actually. Two sources springing up independently is just as likely as one. It doesn’t follow that if there were two they had to come from one, anymore than a single source would have to come from an once-removed source. The “source” implies the first causal step, it doesn’t come from anywhere; if it did, you would have an infinite regression of sources for the previous source, so there would be no actual source - just a big acausal to causal circle-jerk going on forever. Hell, maybe THAT is the true nature of reality… :wink:

So, if it is possible at all for something to come from nothing; that is to say, if there can be a “source” at all, then there can be infinitely many different sources - all of them coming from the nothing, the primordial chaos, whatever/wherever/whenever/however/whyever.

I don’t think the Christians got it right, at least not literally so. I think Christianity has a big problem because they were disconnected from their history, their theology, their scholarship… so they lost a lot of pieces along the way. But even going back now with what we know, putting all the pieces together, I don’t think their predecessors had it precisely right either.

But again, only those who have experienced it really have a clue. And as you mentioned a few times before, how would you ever know if you got deep enough? And from the other side of it, those who truly have seen it, seem to have no doubt whatsoever about it.


#15

I don’t think this follows, actually. Two sources springing up independently is just as likely as one. It doesn’t follow that if there were two they had to come from one, anymore than a single source would have to come from an once-removed source. The “source” implies the first causal step, it doesn’t come from anywhere; if it did, you would have an infinite regression of sources for the previous source, so there would be no actual source - just a big acausal to causal circle-jerk going on forever. Hell, maybe THAT is the true nature of reality… :wink:

So, if it is possible at all for something to come from nothing; that is to say, if there can be a “source” at all, then there can be infinitely many different sources - all of them coming from the nothing, the primordial chaos, whatever/wherever/whenever/however/whyever.

I don’t think the Christians got it right, at least not literally so. I think Christianity has a big problem because they were disconnected from their history, their theology, their scholarship… so they lost a lot of pieces along the way. But even going back now with what we know, putting all the pieces together, I don’t think their predecessors had it precisely right either.

But again, only those who have experienced it really have a clue. And as you mentioned a few times before, how would you ever know if you got deep enough? And from the other side of it, those who truly have seen it, seem to have no doubt whatsoever about it.[/quote]

That’s actually exactly my point. Or very close to. Should there be some causal primordial chaos from which sources spring, then there would have been a source of that, or at least on some level, how it came to be. The only time it stops is when you reach the fabric that is naturally eternal in every possible way from which all possibilities spring. That - to me - is source. The very shit from whence all other shits spring. :slight_smile:


#16

I don’t think this follows, actually. Two sources springing up independently is just as likely as one. It doesn’t follow that if there were two they had to come from one, anymore than a single source would have to come from an once-removed source. The “source” implies the first causal step, it doesn’t come from anywhere; if it did, you would have an infinite regression of sources for the previous source, so there would be no actual source - just a big acausal to causal circle-jerk going on forever. Hell, maybe THAT is the true nature of reality… :wink:

So, if it is possible at all for something to come from nothing; that is to say, if there can be a “source” at all, then there can be infinitely many different sources - all of them coming from the nothing, the primordial chaos, whatever/wherever/whenever/however/whyever.

I don’t think the Christians got it right, at least not literally so. I think Christianity has a big problem because they were disconnected from their history, their theology, their scholarship… so they lost a lot of pieces along the way. But even going back now with what we know, putting all the pieces together, I don’t think their predecessors had it precisely right either.

But again, only those who have experienced it really have a clue. And as you mentioned a few times before, how would you ever know if you got deep enough? And from the other side of it, those who truly have seen it, seem to have no doubt whatsoever about it.[/quote]

That’s actually exactly my point. Or very close to. Should there be some causal primordial chaos from which sources spring, then there would have been a source of that, or at least on some level, how it came to be. The only time it stops is when you reach the fabric that is naturally eternal in every possible way from which all possibilities spring. That - to me - is source. The very shit from whence all other shits spring. :)[/quote]

Well, there’s causal and acausal. The acausal seems preliminary to the causal, but it is still more than nothing.

Because before there was something, there was nothing. Not a big empty, just null. You can’t even really think of null as a something or a “source”. At some point, a something came and stuck around.

I guess you could think of the nothing as the source, but that isn’t very meaningful, at least not to me. It isn’t a something that you can connect to, and it certainly isn’t the “source” that people tap into for their power.

But once there was a something, there very well could be infinite other somethings that came into and left being. And one of those somethings became that experienceable thing we call “source”. And our source may not even have come into being from nothing, it could be a biproduct of a massive succession of other somethings, one of which started from nothing.


#17

But all of this… other than deliberately shaking your world-view, is not really of much value in my opinion. If it isn’t unknowable, it is certainly unknown, and quite difficult to get to the root of. Moreover, I don’t really know what you could do with it if you even know (assuming of course it is knowable) - if you can tap into seemingly limitless power and knowledge and consciousness, what we call “the source”, that should be more than enough to occupy your time for much more than our currently limited imaginations can handle.

We can calculate Pi out to some trillion digits now, but 9 places is more than enough for the vast majority of engineering projects one could perform. I think this is similar - it’s a fun feat, and you might learn immensely on the quest for the answer, but the fact itself has very little intrinsic value.


#18

I had meant to post more than this but my internet keeps loosing my posts so…

“Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water.” - Zen saying


#19

[quote=“DK The Mage, post:13, topic:673”][quote=“ZachD555, post:11, topic:673”]Have you guys read Stephen Hawking’s “The Grand Design” yet? I use his model of the multiverse as a base for any philosophy concerning objective reality. He argues that multiple realities coexist and operate independently of one another, yet are all absolute truth. He also presents mathematical and scientific evidence for multiple dimensions. So I would think that with an infinite universe and an infinite number of dimensions, everything is possible. Seems like Infinity is the only absolute truth. Look in any direction, large, small, or dimension and it’s always an infinite number.

That said, I would think that there are more than one spiritual kingdoms. I think it’s more than possible for a Christian Kingdom of Heaven to exist. Though I doubt the spirit controlling the realm is the all powerful, all encompassing force of the universe. Maybe all of these kingdoms tie together with the infernal undercurrent that Azazel speaks of. Maybe the source is the sum of all its parts operating both independently and in conjunction with everything else in existence. Just my thoughts.

ZachD555[/quote]

lol - of course there’s gotta be some reality where Jesus is the son of God - but he can’t be the son of the source. Because source is the source of all things that are, were and ever will be, all things that never were, are not, and never will be.[/quote]

Technically wouldnt everyone and everything be classified as an offspring of the source? Or would a better analogy be more like they are parts of it like a cell is a part of the human body?


#20

[quote=“redcircle, post:17, topic:673”]But all of this… other than deliberately shaking your world-view, is not really of much value in my opinion. If it isn’t unknowable, it is certainly unknown, and quite difficult to get to the root of. Moreover, I don’t really know what you could do with it if you even know (assuming of course it is knowable) - if you can tap into seemingly limitless power and knowledge and consciousness, what we call “the source”, that should be more than enough to occupy your time for much more than our currently limited imaginations can handle.

We can calculate Pi out to some trillion digits now, but 9 places is more than enough for the vast majority of engineering projects one could perform. I think this is similar - it’s a fun feat, and you might learn immensely on the quest for the answer, but the fact itself has very little intrinsic value.[/quote]

lol - oh? is that a fact? To give a definitely value on such an experience or library of knowledge is a pretty hard thing to do imo. hehe