I’m wondering, is one manifestation better than the other? In my opinion, so long as you can see, hear and communicate with the spirit it doesn’t matter whether the spirit is physically in the room or on the astral plane being viewed within a scrying mirror. Is there any benefit of using one over the other?
I have heard that the manifestation is the limit with which the spirit can work. If you can get a full physical manifestation, then they can work directly on the physical world. If you only get a mental or astral manifestation, then they can only work on the mental and/or astral plane. Which is still effective, but it would have to be a trickle down effect meaning you would have to wait longer or expend more energy to get the mental or astral workings to condense into a physical manifestation.
I will add that for myself, Azazel told me that he will have to deal with the person in the way that person best is able to make contact with him or any other spirit … meaning this…I made contact with another who Azazel interacts quite often and I made mention that I would like to meet him like he is dealing with that other person…He says he has been dealing with me in my dreams and that the symbols I have been seeing were from him…and he said that night I would receive a visit from him and would deal in a different way…darn if I did not have a different view of some items and the next day, I forgot what he had said…I spent all day trying to figure out how I should view the dream symbol from the previous night…then all of a sudden I remembered what he said…then it perfectly made sense to me…so what I have seen, is that the spirits will adapt to you as you grow in relation to your effort and work which you put into the whole process.
Maxx
Is this true? Not trying to denigrate your knowledge or experience but why would the spirit be limited to physical manifestation to be able to use its power to its full potential? I don’t understand how that works.
In my experiance, when on the astral it is possible to perceive things in ways that physical time space simply won’t allow and therefore when dealing with a spirit astrally I tend to gain a greater depth of knowledge about that spirits appearance and function from which other information can be intuited and extrapolated. Although physical manifestation is nice its not something I really care too much about.
In response to DK, if we consider that it is generally accepted that before anything can manifest on the physical plane it must first manifest on the astral and that most spirits don’t perceive time as a linear I would have to disagree with you, how ever this is, as always, only my interpretation.
All of this begs the question of the degree to which the successes of the spirit depend upon the abilities of the magician, doesn’t it? If the ritual is perfected and complete detachment attained afterward, then the manifestation of whatever was desired should depend on nothing but the powers of the spirit, no? If the spirit were limitless, then nothing would be impossible. The waking world would be as a lucid dream. And on the other ‘planes’, like the astral, this seems to me to be the case. Taking this thought one step further, the detachment might be redundant. A perfected ritual would not merely have as its consequence detachment, but would manifest the desired changes in the world immediately. But we are supposed to believe, even amongst magicians, that this is ‘impossible’; that we are subject to ultimate ‘laws’ that have to be reconcilable to ‘science’ or the ‘divine’. We call this the ‘material’ plane, but the other planes appear to be substantial too. There is form and touch and texture and resistance on the astral. What really characterises our waking existence is its limitedness. I am increasingly pushed toward the conclusion that the nature of our waking existence is nothing but a collective hallucination that with every passing generation of ‘civilisation’ is torn more and more from the magical cosmos and crystallised into the lunacy that is the logocentric Weltanschauung, whether it is manifested as science with its natural laws or monotheism with its divine ones. Thus it is not maya’, as I see it, which is the deceptive veil, but, ultimately, law. We are all well aware of the manner in which representatives of the ‘divine’ can cast out demons from the world, or in which science intellectualises them away and sets up its machines in their place.
So now that I appear to have gone off on a tangent, you may be asking what any of this has to do with evocations of spirits to physical materialisation. What is a perfected ritual? I don’t know, but I think when you do this, call a spirit into physical existence, you are tearing a hole in the fabric of the hallucination. I think you are causing cracks to form in its walls, nuts and bolts to loose from its structure. I have no doubts that this is a step closer to ‘perfection’ of the ritual on this plane. I also think you are placing limitations on the spirit in this world if you believe it is not possible or is itself limited compared with its appearance on the astral. But more than this, I believe that if EA is right, and we can see ourselves as gods who have come here to rend this veil and unleash magic into this existence (although I am far from convinced that this is the case for all, or even a significant part, of a ‘civilised’ humanity that is doing just the opposite), then we ought to evoke demons, which are to me the primal forces of the living cosmos, physically and as often as we are able to, until the whole damned farce that is ‘reality’ comes toppling down.
‘Everything is permitted’ is magic in a nutshell. It’s not just a statement about moral law, but so-called ‘natural law’ too. Magic is unlimited.
Ah I totally agree with you but I tend to find that for those who are only just awakening a lie in between is quit useful, most egos will deny such a shattering of reality,even if they professes to accept it, the unity of self is incomplete and so they are plagued by doubt. Even though I know I could step Through the wall, letting myself accept that on a deep level can’t be forced so instead I pry at the edges, break up reality just a little bit more before moving onto a deeper truth.
All too true … unfortunately.
[quote=“Soundwave, post:5, topic:474”]In my experiance, when on the astral it is possible to perceive things in ways that physical time space simply won’t allow and therefore when dealing with a spirit astrally I tend to gain a greater depth of knowledge about that spirits appearance and function from which other information can be intuited and extrapolated. Although physical manifestation is nice its not something I really care too much about.
In response to DK, if we consider that it is generally accepted that before anything can manifest on the physical plane it must first manifest on the astral and that most spirits don’t perceive time as a linear I would have to disagree with you, how ever this is, as always, only my interpretation.[/quote]
And you have that right. But you need to think about this logically. When you commune with a spirit, it is YOUR energy that brings them into the triangle, not the spirits. When you have enough energy, you can cause them to manifest physically. This manifestation is dependent upon your personal abilities.
Now, if you can only get them to manifest astrally or mentally, you can get them to work in the astral and mental realms. However, this does not discount the astral or mental influence on the physical world. For instance, getting someone to change their minds, or putting a heavy psychotic break on someone only requires a strong mental presentation, and sometimes an astral aspect is needed. Thus, it may seem that it was immediately precipitated into the physical, but in actuality it was only action within the mental or physical realms.
Think about this - if you don’t get the entity to manifest physically, and you handed it a physical object, do you think it would be able to actually hold it?
Likewise, if you get an entity to manifest in the physical, and you asked it to go kill someone, chances are, they will die with strange strangle marks, or a weapon hanging out of their gut. The manifestation represents the level at which the spirit will be able to influence reality.
Now, don’t confuse my words. There are MANY ways a spirit can influence the physical plane by manipulating the astral or mental planes. However, if it is a direct interaction you desire - for instance, say you wanted to torch a building and your spirit manifests astrally or mentally. Let’s look at how this might happen.
Mentally - the spirit influences some person to lose their mind, get a can of gas, and torch the building.
Astrally - the spirit causes the fire and air elements to condense heavily in the vicinity, allowing them to precipitate into reality - causing an astral combustion, and eventually, by happenstance, the building will catch fire by such means as a faulty breaker, or whatever else could “fit” that outcome.
Now, if you asked a physically manifested spirit to torch a building, the spirit would be capable of going right over to it, raising the energy required and causing the precipitation to occur immediately.
But don’t take my word for this. There are many a texts out there which talk about this very thing. I have come across this in many writings including Bardon and Evola.
The spirit uses your own power to complete the task (with the exception of a few special cases). If you can’t get the spirit to manifest physically, how is he supposed to use your power to cause direct physical phenomena?
This is definitely, something that everyone will eventually conclude, I’m sure.
However, just because something happens on the physical plane, doesn’t mean it was a direct physical action. In fact, EVERYTHING has to precipitate from the mental to the astral, and then to the physical. If you consider this law of reality, you must see, in relation to your ability to manifest a spirit, that there is a necessary hierarchy of events for something to occur physically.
===edit===
Also - though the spirit may be powerful - you must also consider the level of respect of which the spirit has for you. If the spirit sees that you are capable of causing mental, astral, and physical phenomena yourself, and that you have mastered many of the requirements for godhood, he will of course, bow at your feet and fulfill the request without any variance. If however, he sees that you are still in your divine youth, and you have yet to master the physical and astral worlds, he will not respect you in that manner. This, however, is only my personal experience. As I progress personally, the spirits seem to also “progress”. But perhaps this is only due to the respect, or level of divinity at which the spirit sees you.
There are definitely many factors at play when working with evocation. I am by no means a master. But I rely on the words of masters, and I support their words with my own experience.
I would not say anything if I have not, at the least, experienced this myself to some degree. And it definitely seems to me, that the more control and power I gain, the more the spirits become “capable” of effecting more significant requests.
I still dont understand this. Why would a spirit’s abilities be limited only to the method evoked? If the spirit grants the love of others it should be able to do regardless of the method used to evoke it. Can someone explain this please.
Two things come to mind. One has to do with the limitations that you are placing on the spirit during the ritual. The other goes back to the question of why the spirits help us at all. EA says they want to exercise the power of which they are an incarnation. Exercising it is their existence, so to speak. They exist insofar as that power exists , and that power exists insofar as it is being exercised! But why do they need us for that? And that takes me back to what my reason for being here as a god is in the first place. Why would my attempt to unleash magic and gain power over this plane even be meaningful if the forces of magic can operate here at leisure? I don’t think they can. And I think that as ‘humanity’ has ‘progressed’, which according to pagan tradition I rather see as a moving farther and farther from a ‘mythical’ Golden Age, this prison of our minds has become more and more resistant to them. By performing an evocation we are actually aiding them in being able to unleash their power, and by full physical materialisation we are ripping a hole in the illusion of this reality through which the full power of the demons may flow and move without limitation.
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I still dont understand this. Why would a spirit’s abilities be limited only to the method evoked? If the spirit grants the love of others it should be able to do regardless of the method used to evoke it. Can someone explain this please.[/quote]
Think of it like this. You’re the magician - you are the divine, the god, you play the roll of the controller - the man behind the machine.
That machine you wield is the spirit. So - if you have two hypothetical magicians (or men) and they each have a hammer - one is a mighty and large man, the other is a small an scrawny man. Who is going to do more damage with the hammer?
There are powerful spirits, yes. But if you’re not powerful enough to wield them as a tool, or you’re not strong enough to work that particular machine, you’ll get minimal results - at best.
The ability to bring a spirit into full manifestation is a measure of your abilities, or your strength as a magician. When a magician is powerful enough to cause a spirit to fully manifest in physical form, then he is also powerful enough to wield the spirit (or the hammer/tool) in whatever way he sees fit. Thus having the ability to take advantage of the full power of the spirit.
“”"
Following the principles which by now are already well known to the magician, each power or being will only have effects within the spheres into which it has been called and in which it has been condensed. This means that, for instance, a being projected into the mental sphere will naturally not be able to influence the physical world, but will only become effective in the mental world. The same is valid for the astral and the physical world. The reader will find more details about the mystery of condensation or materialization from one sphere into the other in a later chapter.
“”"
Keep in mind it is really YOU who is doing the deed for which you call the spirit. The spirit is just the tool with which the deed is done. After performing a massive evocation with an intense outcome, you will find you are extremely fatigued. This is because it is your own energy that is used in the specific task. Not the spirits.
There are, however, times where the spirit will use its power to perform a task for the magician, or even use its own power to materialize. However, this is usually the product of a contract. And, while contracts - to a point - are legitimate tools to use, it is impossible to cause a spirit to perform a task that you, yourself, could not do through ritual or some other expression of personal power and will (aka through psionics or other ritual practices) without a contract. This is the very essence of what a contract is for, but always remember, you can go too far with a contract. EA even suggests this in the BOA. Also, using a contract for everything is probably a really bad idea. Contracts have their purpose, but just like everything else, there is a time a place for a contract.
The purpose of employing spirits for tasks in this sense, is to save the time it would take for such a massive expenditure of energy and time. The energy will still be used, but your time will be safe and free for you to manipulate at your disposal.
Two things come to mind. One has to do with the limitations that you are placing on the spirit during the ritual. The other goes back to the question of why the spirits help us at all. EA says they want to exercise the power of which they are an incarnation. Exercising it is their existence, so to speak. They exist insofar as that power exists , and that power exists insofar as it is being exercised! But why do they need us for that? And that takes me back to what my reason for being here as a god is in the first place. Why would my attempt to unleash magic and gain power over this plane even be meaningful if the forces of magic can operate here at leisure? I don’t think they can. And I think that as ‘humanity’ has ‘progressed’, which according to pagan tradition I rather see as a moving farther and farther from a ‘mythical’ Golden Age, this prison of our minds has become more and more resistant to them. By performing an evocation we are actually aiding them in being able to unleash their power, and by full physical materialisation we are ripping a hole in the illusion of this reality through which the full power of the demons may flow and move without limitation.[/quote]
well said, Poete Maudit
They may be one of the most powerful beings here, but, we are the conduit through which their abilities are manifested. The more powerful we are, the more they are able to manipulate reality in accordance with our desire and will.
Two things come to mind. One has to do with the limitations that you are placing on the spirit during the ritual. The other goes back to the question of why the spirits help us at all. EA says they want to exercise the power of which they are an incarnation. Exercising it is their existence, so to speak. They exist insofar as that power exists , and that power exists insofar as it is being exercised! But why do they need us for that? And that takes me back to what my reason for being here as a god is in the first place. Why would my attempt to unleash magic and gain power over this plane even be meaningful if the forces of magic can operate here at leisure? I don’t think they can. And I think that as ‘humanity’ has ‘progressed’, which according to pagan tradition I rather see as a moving farther and farther from a ‘mythical’ Golden Age, this prison of our minds has become more and more resistant to them. By performing an evocation we are actually aiding them in being able to unleash their power, and by full physical materialisation we are ripping a hole in the illusion of this reality through which the full power of the demons may flow and move without limitation.[/quote]
I kind of understand this but it still doesn’t explain the WHY of my question. Why is the ability of the spirit limited to the method of evocation? I still don’t understand this. It doesn’t make logical sense that the power of the spirit is limited by it’s evocation. Even if they are physically present during the evocation, once we dismiss the spirit they are no longer on our material plane but return to their realm to carry out our task (be it themselves or by dispatching one or some of their minions to do our bidding for them). So why would it matter if we evoke them to our plane then dismiss them back to theirs or evoke them on the astral plane and keep them there to begin with? I’m still not seeing this.
[quote author=DK The Mage link=topic=472.msg7290#msg7290
well said, Poete Maudit
They may be one of the most powerful beings here, but, we are the conduit through which their abilities are manifested. The more powerful we are, the more they are able to manipulate reality in accordance with our desire and will.
[/quote]
Hmmm…this sounds like you’re going with the theory that demons, such as those of the Goetia for example, are simply parts of our subconscious that we have yet to control and therefore through evocation we gain control over those parts and can manifest things within our lives.
From what I read in the Koetting titles I own he does not agree with this theory nor do I. Please correct me if I’m wrong here.
[quote=“Baphomet, post:15, topic:474”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:13, topic:474”]well said, Poete Maudit
They may be one of the most powerful beings here, but, we are the conduit through which their abilities are manifested. The more powerful we are, the more they are able to manipulate reality in accordance with our desire and will.[/quote]
Hmmm…this sounds like you’re going with the theory that demons, such as those of the Goetia for example, are simply parts of our subconscious that we have yet to control and therefore through evocation we gain control over those parts and can manifest things within our lives.
From what I read in the Koetting titles I own he does not agree with this theory nor do I. Please correct me if I’m wrong here.[/quote]
Not at all.
I actually don’t know if the goetic spirits are parts of the subconscious or actual spiritual entities. I do know that there are subconscious entities of my own that I’ve worked with, so I know they do exist. But as for the goetic spirits, I cannot say. So - I don’t fully agree with this assessment either. I know this was Crowley’s conclusion, however, I have a hard time taking this one on at face value.
All I can say is, this is my experience, and this is the conclusion of several occult authors. I would be interested to hear what EA has to say about this.
It makes perfect sense to me, personally. As that, the more mature and powerful you become magickally, the more autonomy you have over reality.
This is also manifest in ones ability to give orders to entities.
Here’s an example - let’s just say, for shits and giggles, that a cat evokes you. A little tiny cat with no more power than a normal house cat. And you show up in his triangle to see what all the mumbo’s about, and he says, “By the power of divinity that flows within me, I command you to bring me 2,000 cans of tuna!”
What’s your reaction? I would think it should be something like, “what? are you kidding me? A measly sub-human beast is ordering me around? So what if there’s a spark of divinity in there, it has no more power than the next.”
right? I mean, you might say, “whatever, here’s 1 can - take it or leave it.”
On the other hand, say you get there and he’s this massively powerful glowing lion with energy streaming all around it and you can see the divine power connected directly to its heart. And when you hear it speak, you hear the voice of creation moving through the air. As it were, you would bow with respect and say, “Consider it done, master.”
I think there is also a matter of respect and a hierarchy of command. If you’re not powerful enough to gain their respect, they’ll laugh at you and leave you sitting in the dark in the middle of your circle.
But yeah - I’m not asking you to believe this. Not at all. Prove it to yourself. That’s what this is all about. If you prove me wrong - I would be honored to accept that I was incorrect so long as someone gave adequate proof of the matter and I could confirm it through my own experimentation. I’m just speaking on my experiences and my personal studies.
But here’s the last question for you to perhaps help percolate this idea in your mind. If an entities power was not dependent on the maturity and power of the magician, then why is it necessary to be at a certain level of skill and power to bring about an astral materialization? And then why is it an even higher skill level to bring about a physical manifestation if it was only a matter of the power of the spirit?
The only reason that I can think for this phenomena is that the power and maturity of the magician is a necessary part of the evocation all the way from the start of the ritual to the end of the task.
Try, for example, sending a myriad of entities out to, say, 50 or 60 tasks within a weeks time.
If I am correct, you will be extremely tired and fatigued for that week while your personal energies are being used to conclude the tasks. If, however, I am wrong, you should have no power drain within the time set out for the entities to accomplish these tasks and they will all be fulfilled to your specifications.
There are definitely other tests you can set out as well. For example, evoke an entity mentally and give it both an astral and physical task. Then watch to see how they are performed and question the entity afterward. Likewise, evoke one in the astral and ask it to perform a physical task and see how it is executed.
You may likewise, simply ask an entity how this works, which may be a really good idea anyway. Understanding the process of evocation and task completion may make it all the more effective.
But yea, like I said, I’m not trying to prove a point. I’m only giving you my personal conclusion from my studies and experiments. If this doesn’t seem right to you, or if you feel there is a kink in this theory, I would suggest a set of experiments and a series of discussions with some of the entities you are most familiar with in order to answer this question.
I would be extremely interested in hearing your results as well. If you are correct, then I have some things in my personal theories and understandings to iron out. In fact, I may actually take this up as well as that I have never focused directly on understanding this. It may prove an extremely powerful aid to know the process - there may be some powerful hacks that can be thrown into the system in order to make evocation more powerful or to produce some amazing effects.
[quote=“DK The Mage, post:16, topic:474”]Not at all.
I actually don’t know if the goetic spirits are parts of the subconscious or actual spiritual entities. I do know that there are subconscious entities of my own that I’ve worked with, so I know they do exist. But as for the goetic spirits, I cannot say. So - I don’t fully agree with this assessment either. I know this was Crowley’s conclusion, however, I have a hard time taking this one on at face value.
All I can say is, this is my experience, and this is the conclusion of several occult authors. I would be interested to hear what EA has to say about this.
It makes perfect sense to me, personally. As that, the more mature and powerful you become magickally, the more autonomy you have over reality.
This is also manifest in ones ability to give orders to entities.
Here’s an example - let’s just say, for shits and giggles, that a cat evokes you. A little tiny cat with no more power than a normal house cat. And you show up in his triangle to see what all the mumbo’s about, and he says, “By the power of divinity that flows within me, I command you to bring me 2,000 cans of tuna!”
What’s your reaction? I would think it should be something like, “what? are you kidding me? A measly sub-human beast is ordering me around? So what if there’s a spark of divinity in there, it has no more power than the next.”
right? I mean, you might say, “whatever, here’s 1 can - take it or leave it.”
On the other hand, say you get there and he’s this massively powerful glowing lion with energy streaming all around it and you can see the divine power connected directly to its heart. And when you hear it speak, you hear the voice of creation moving through the air. As it were, you would bow with respect and say, “Consider it done, master.”[/quote]
Ok, I’m starting to understand your point a bit more. Thanks for clearing it up. But my question still goes unanswered…unless I missed your answer, in which case if I did, I apologize. I’m still trying to figure out why a mirror (astral) evocation is less effective for gains in the material world over a physical evocation. I think it should be noted here that I’m planning an evocation in about a month, I’m looking for information not anything physical (though the information I receive would most certainly lead to physical gains). So in my case, at least for this particular evocation, an astral one would suffice. Anyway, I can understand that one would have to exert much omnipotent power in order to evoke to the physical. But why would that have any sway over the spirit’s abilities to manifest your desires? That’s what I’m trying to figure it out.
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[quote=“Baphomet, post:17, topic:474”][quote=“DK The Mage, post:16, topic:474”]Not at all.
I actually don’t know if the goetic spirits are parts of the subconscious or actual spiritual entities. I do know that there are subconscious entities of my own that I’ve worked with, so I know they do exist. But as for the goetic spirits, I cannot say. So - I don’t fully agree with this assessment either. I know this was Crowley’s conclusion, however, I have a hard time taking this one on at face value.
All I can say is, this is my experience, and this is the conclusion of several occult authors. I would be interested to hear what EA has to say about this.
It makes perfect sense to me, personally. As that, the more mature and powerful you become magickally, the more autonomy you have over reality.
This is also manifest in ones ability to give orders to entities.
Here’s an example - let’s just say, for shits and giggles, that a cat evokes you. A little tiny cat with no more power than a normal house cat. And you show up in his triangle to see what all the mumbo’s about, and he says, “By the power of divinity that flows within me, I command you to bring me 2,000 cans of tuna!”
What’s your reaction? I would think it should be something like, “what? are you kidding me? A measly sub-human beast is ordering me around? So what if there’s a spark of divinity in there, it has no more power than the next.”
right? I mean, you might say, “whatever, here’s 1 can - take it or leave it.”
On the other hand, say you get there and he’s this massively powerful glowing lion with energy streaming all around it and you can see the divine power connected directly to its heart. And when you hear it speak, you hear the voice of creation moving through the air. As it were, you would bow with respect and say, “Consider it done, master.”[/quote]
Ok, I’m starting to understand your point a bit more. Thanks for clearing it up. But my question still goes unanswered…unless I missed your answer, in which case if I did, I apologize. I’m still trying to figure out why a mirror (astral) evocation is less effective for gains in the material world over a physical evocation. I think it should be noted here that I’m planning an evocation in about a month, I’m looking for information not anything physical (though the information I receive would most certainly lead to physical gains). So in my case, at least for this particular evocation, an astral one would suffice. Anyway, I can understand that one would have to exert much omnipotent power in order to evoke to the physical. But why would that have any sway over the spirit’s abilities to manifest your desires? That’s what I’m trying to figure it out.[/quote]
I don’t think it’s actually any less powerful per se. You can pull off some pretty powerful feats just in the mental and astral planes. In fact, you can perform some pretty fantastic things that can effect the physical world by setting things in motion in the higher planes. There’s no question about that.
I think this is more along the lines of, what medium will work best for what you want to do?
Of course a physical manifestation will give you an ability to directly move all three spheres at once toward your goal.
But as for the actual mechanics behind this theory - I have no clue. It is definitely something to be studied.
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Thanks DK for your contribution and help. And thanks to everyone who posted in the thread.
[quote=“DK The Mage, post:13, topic:474”]Here’s an example - let’s just say, for shits and giggles, that a cat evokes you. A little tiny cat with no more power than a normal house cat. And you show up in his triangle to see what all the mumbo’s about, and he says, “By the power of divinity that flows within me, I command you to bring me 2,000 cans of tuna!”
What’s your reaction? I would think it should be something like, “what? are you kidding me? A measly sub-human beast is ordering me around? So what if there’s a spark of divinity in there, it has no more power than the next.”
right? I mean, you might say, “whatever, here’s 1 can - take it or leave it.”
On the other hand, say you get there and he’s this massively powerful glowing lion with energy streaming all around it and you can see the divine power connected directly to its heart. And when you hear it speak, you hear the voice of creation moving through the air. As it were, you would bow with respect and say, “Consider it done, master.”
I think there is also a matter of respect and a hierarchy of command. If you’re not powerful enough to gain their respect, they’ll laugh at you and leave you sitting in the dark in the middle of your circle.[/quote]
You have a way with words DK. This is exactly what I believe.This is precisely the reason why I have performed my daily rituals and field work for the past ten plus years. The mage is the conduit.