LBRP: elements directions and Archangels positions?

I recently discovered the controversy regarding LBRP and the positions.
Many claim Golden Dawn purposedly made the wrong directions, with the correct one being with Mikael(fire) to the east and Raphael(air) to the south.
Someone even further suggested to invert Uriel(north earth) with Raphael.
I’ve also recently seen people claiming air shoul be in the West and water to south.

What’s your opinion on the matter?
Which is the true position?

1 Like

The east is the ancient direction of air because it represents inspiration and new energy, as the sun rises in the east so the breath of inspiration comes from the east.

If the poles flip I guess that will change, and they do that about one every 10-14k years, so it stands to reason traditions containing info from antediluvean times have conflicts. They’re not wrong: our assumption that these things never change is wrong. The landscape direction of East moves with the precesion of the equinoxes as well.

It makes sense to me that fire is South because I’m in the northern hemisphere… for an Australuan their south is the anarctic and their north is warmer, so if I lived in Austrslia I’d see north as fire.

I think, instead of adhering to other peoples findings, which becomes dogma, it’s ideal to examine your landscape and work with what you’ve actually got.

Just try it and keep what works for you.


That’s really interesting because I heard a person say that they (the golden dawn) had the directions wrong too what a trip! I was skeptical of the person saying that because I figured the golden dawn especially Crowley would have a lot more experience then the person who had said it. I wonder if they truly did have them wrong??? I’ve always only known N earth E air S fire W water but I’m always open minded so that I may learn and progress.

This is an awesome point! There was a guy that said the reason why Crowley’s spells didn’t work is because he had the elements wrong for the directions kinda like @Caesar was saying. Is that a possibility? Thank you!

Don’t know. I think plenty of his spells worked, and a lot had fallout as he was very messy with his energy: he didn’t contain it, it was baneful, and people living in his house, like the housekeeper, did really off things like becoming alcoholics and murderers. He seem to fuck up everything and everybody he met. He put a lot of effort into doing everything wrong.

I’d call that verification that he was doing something, but he didn’t really know what or why, he doesn’t strike me as a mage in control. More like he sounded horribly parasitised, running all over being told what to do by entities I’m pretty sure I’d kill with fire on sight… a lot of them were channeled by these “scarlet women” i.e. every woman he fucked, :roll_eyes: and he was driven by ridiculous, base urges and wasted his training and his talent.

I think he’s a fine example of what happens to some mages: they get a bit of power and go quite mad and lose the plot. And that’s why he failed in his life’s work: he never once tried to stop, think critically, and examine if he was on track to meet his goals and progress the great work.

We don’t have a long time to do this and it can take decades, the alchemists drive for longevity was to buy time to complete it. Crowley made his bed and he lay in it.

1 Like

Wow that’s crazy about him, I can see what you’re saying. Thank you so much for the response back. I’ve been reading a lot of posts and I freaking love it here and am so glad I joined. Thank you again :sunglasses::metal:t2:

1 Like

This makes no sense to me.
There has to be a correct and true order.

Yes it’s just not fixed with direction, it’s fixed against the magnetic energy flow.

1 Like

In some books by the Gallery of Magick there’s this arrangement of archangels you mention (Raphael in the South, Michael in the East).

They give an explanation of why they have chosen this way of doing the call in the book “Archangels of Magick” by Damon Brand, but in a few words it was a matter of personal gnosis validated by ancient sources research.

I don’t think the GD purposefully deceived people, nor that their chosen arrangement was necessarily wrong. Things change, but in the end, directions are just one of the many things that are part of a ritual. Even if you get that slightly wrong (which still has power of its own, being used by thousands of occultists throughout the centuries), but the intention is there and the other parts are correct, rituals can still work.

For example, we don’t have the correct pronunciation of all the words of power we often use in rituals, or some Demons/Angels sigils you find in books have been altered, or we don’t necessarily work under the right planetary influences or time/day, etc.
Rituals still work. Some more, some less. I guess that the more things you get right about the process, the better the chances you have for it to work.

I would suggest you to try both versions and see which works best for you.

1 Like