Judaeo-Christianity and Magick

I personally don’t see much conflict between magick practices and Christianity. And, when I say Christianity, I also mean include the other Abrahamic derived religions, Judaism and Islam.

It seems odd that the whole thing about the occult being prohibited in these religions is contradictory when the main prophets of these religions were mages. Moses and his brother Aaron, Elijah and Elisha, Ezekiel, King Solomon, and of course Jesus. Even the prophet Mohammed had magick powers.

John 10:34 | Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Exodus 7:1 - And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Psalms 82:6-7 - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Luke 11:31 | The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Galatians 3:5 | He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Deuteronomy 11:3 | And his miracles, and his acts, which he did in the midst of Egypt unto Pharaoh the king of Egypt, and unto all his land;

1 Corinthians 12: 8-10 | 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Acts 6:8 | And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

1 Corinthians 12:7 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Matthew 7:22 | Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 9:34 | But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:24 | But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:27 | And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

One could go on and on. Entire books have already been written about this.

Even though I am of the LHP, I still see that my Baptist upbringing as a kid does not conflict with my spiritual beliefs and occult practices. Considering the most of the grimoires were written by Catholic monks. The patron of magickians is St. Cyprian and there is a grimoire dedicated to Pope Honorius!

The magick languages are Hebrew, Greek and Latin. Most of the rituals are based on Hebrew and the Kabbalah. Speaking of Islam, if the Arabs did not preserve key manuscripts, those monks would never have found those grimoires in the first place.

If it is okay for the Pope to do magick, then it is okay for me too. After all, Jesus was a LHP mage that helped people and tried to show them how to ascend. That is why is was killed.

Please feel free to contribute your thoughts and possibly expand this thread.


I have posted about this elsewhere. In the four Apostolic Churches, that is the Churches which all split off from each other and they each have simultaneous claim to a direct lineage to the apostles themselves, these are the Catholic Church (Sts. Peter and Paul, Apostles), Eastern Orthodox (Sts. Andrew and Luke, Apostles), Oriental Orthodox (St. Mark, Apostle), and the Churches of the East (St. Thomas, Apostle).

All these Churches have magical practices in their ritual and traditions. The veneration of relics is necromantic sorcery 101. The veneration of saints is the age, old practice of ancestor veneration. There are two kinds of saints, you have your saints which do actions in direct obedience to God and they work miracles, these are practitioners of what the Hindus call Karma Yoga, the path of action and service. Then, you have your saints with have such adoration of God that they experiences mystical experiences of the divine and they work miracles, these are practitioners of what the Hindus call Bhakti Yoga, the path of devotion and adoration. Then, of course, you have your theologians, these are practioners of what the Hindus call Jnana Yoga, the path of the scholar and of the sage.

But, I do have to put into context some of your verses:

Jewish Rabbis (which Jesus was also one) used what is called midrash (in this case it’s Halakhic Midrash) where they quote loosely from the scriptures to support a point. The Talmud is full of stuff like this. It’s not the proper context and that’s fine, that’s what it’s supposed to be.

This isn’t talking to people, the Psalms are the oldest part of the Hebrew Bible and this is a carry over from when Judaism was a Yahweh-cult within the wider Canaanite pantheon. Let’s go through the entire 82 Psalm in Hebrew.

1מִזְמֹ֗ור לְאָ֫סָ֥ף אֱ‍ֽלֹהִ֗ים נִצָּ֥ב בַּעֲדַת־אֵ֑ל בְּקֶ֖רֶב אֱלֹהִ֣ים יִשְׁפֹּֽט׃
2עַד־מָתַ֥י תִּשְׁפְּטוּ־עָ֑וֶל וּפְנֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים תִּשְׂאוּ־סֶֽלָה׃

3שִׁפְטוּ־דַ֥ל וְיָתֹ֑ום עָנִ֖י וָרָ֣שׁ הַצְדִּֽיקוּ׃

4פַּלְּטוּ־דַ֥ל וְאֶבְיֹ֑ון מִיַּ֖ד רְשָׁעִ֣ים הַצִּֽילוּ׃

5לֹ֤א יָֽדְע֨וּ ׀ וְלֹ֥א יָבִ֗ינוּ בַּחֲשֵׁכָ֥ה יִתְהַלָּ֑כוּ יִ֝מֹּ֗וטוּ כָּל־מֹ֥וסְדֵי אָֽרֶץ׃

6אֲ‍ֽנִי־אָ֭מַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִ֣ים אַתֶּ֑ם וּבְנֵ֖י עֶלְיֹ֣ון כֻּלְּכֶֽם׃

7אָ֭כֵן כְּאָדָ֣ם תְּמוּת֑וּן וּכְאַחַ֖ד הַשָּׂרִ֣ים תִּפֹּֽלוּ׃

8קוּמָ֣ה אֱ֭לֹהִים שָׁפְטָ֣ה הָאָ֑רֶץ כִּֽי־אַתָּ֥ה תִ֝נְחַ֗ל בְּכָל־הַגֹּויִֽם׃

This is my personal translation of the Hebrew:

The gods take a convocation, El, in the midst of the gods, renders judgement. How long will you judge without justice, and show your face to the wicked persons. Vindicate the weak, the fatherless, the afflicted, and the destitute. Rescue the poor and the needy, deliver them from the hand of the wicked. You do not know, nor do you understand, walk in darkness, all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said of the gods, you are all sons of El, the Most High. Nevertheless, you will die as men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O gods, judge the earth, for who possesses all the nations.

So, this has nothing to do with humanity. This is El, the Patron of the Canaanite pantheon, judging his sons, the Eloheim, who are the sons of El, a group of 72 gods in the Canaanite pantheon. Telling them to do what is right among the world.


Yes, but Jesus specifically quoted this when speaking to the people as well. Therefore, most(who catch it) take that as him telling them that they are gods, by using that earlier scripture from the Psalms.

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Except that’s not the context of that quote from Jesus. Previously, he had said that he and the Father (Yahweh) were one and then the Jews pick up rocks to stone him.

John 10:33-36, " 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

So, we see that he’s using this scripture to defend himself. His primary argument is, if there are beings outside of Yahweh’s person (this was after Yahweh subsumed the name El as well as his characteristics) whom he addresses with the title god, then there must be gods who are not Yahweh. And therefore, it is wrong to stone Jesus, because he is one of these gods outside of the person of Yahweh. This didn’t turn out well and they weren’t convinced.

John 10:39, “39 Then they tried to arrest [Jesus] again, but he escaped from their hands.”

And so, he was not teaching on the nature of man, but defending his own claim to deity and no one else’s.


I forget exactly where, be he says it in other places as well concerning forgiveness of sins.

Something to the effect their scriptures( to the pharisees) say that only God can forgive sins, yet he(Jesus) says if someone forgives you for your sin against them, then they are forgiven, yet how can this be if only God can forgive sins, then he(Jesus) says the “ye are gods thing” again to them.

Further illustrating their God-like power, along with, “the things I do you shall do also, even greater things” bit.

That’s what spoke to me when I read it.

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“And so, he was not teaching on the nature of man, but defending his own claim to deity and no one else’s.”

But by quoting the psalm he implicitly accepts the possibility of the deity of other beings who (presumably, if they shared his ontological state) could also be “fully human”.

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You’re conflating a few different passages. The first part, when the Pharisees claim only god can forgive sins, is in all three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Luke, Mark). Jesus saying “when you forgive someone their sins they are forgiven” is him talking with the disciples after his resurrection in John. And Jesus only ever says the “Ye are gods” thing in the passage I’ve already talked about. You can see in this Bible wide search.

Matthew 9:2-8, “2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, ‘Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.’ 3 And some of the scribes said to themselves, ‘This fellow blasphemes.’ 4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, ‘Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? 5 Which is easier, to say, “Your sins are forgiven,” or to say, “Get up, and walk”? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins’—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he got up and went home. 8 But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”

Key phrase here is “They… glorified God, who had given such authority to men.” This is about authority, and not necessarily a divine nature. Then, after his resurrection, Jesus gives this same authority to his disciples.

John 20:19-23, “19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.’ 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.’”

This is where the Sacrament of Confession comes in all the four Apostolic Churches I named above: The Catholic Church, founded by Sts. Peter and Paul; the Eastern Orthodox, founded by Sts. Andrew and John; the Oriental Orthodox, founded by St. Mark; and the Churches of the East, founded by St. Thomas. They all have the Sacrament of Confession as they all have priests who were given the same authority that Christ gave the apostles.

And the greater things verse is necessarily connected with faith in Jesus.

John 14:8-14, “8 Philip *said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.; 9 Jesus *said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, “Show us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.’”

That’s assuming Jesus was actually fully human. The humanity of Christ was a source of great contention in the early Church especially with Gnostic sects taking the Greek view that matter was evil and corrupt. It was not fully decided that Christ was fully human until the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

But, yes, his defense of his claim to divinity implies an acceptance that there may be others like Jesus. In fact, all the Apostolic Churches teach the doctrine of Theosis, or Divinization.

“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” - St. Irenaeus (Disciple of St. Polycarp, who in turn was a Disciple of St. John)

“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” - St. Athanasius, Doctor (Teacher) of the Church (it means that someone has been decreed by the Pope to teach properly the faith of the Catholic Church)

“The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” - St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

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Nice to see you quote Aquinas on this; the soteriology of theosis is given a lot more emphasis in the Eastern Orthodox church and finds its most systematic expression in Palamite theology. But nice to see it pop its head up in a Catholic context.

Are you going to start saying the Jesus prayer for hours on end Ash? :wink: (Be careful; the Orthodox monks have rules about the practice of Hesychasm!)

Perhaps a journey to Mount Athos is in order? :wink: :wink: