Is Poverty a "Sin"?

General Discussion
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What about the people who create diseases in their labs (talking about conspiracy here) that kill and ruin lives of millions, create so much of suffering?

Do you think they’ll incarnate millions of times to suffer? Or burn in hell for thousands of years?

Nope!!

TV news editors who lie about illegal immigrants?!?
Will they face any karmic repercussion?
Because if they were to speak the truth, alot of human suffering could be avoided! It is their DUTY!! MORAL OBLIGATION according to karma!! And other religious lies.

What about leaders who start fake wars??!?!

Do they face any consequences ??

Nope!! Nothing at all compared to the suffering they cause.

Justice is a victim’s fantasy!

The only thing close to this is where in the bible, the tyrant god says

“The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin”

I say!
ASCRIBE ALL SINS TO ME FAGGOT

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I would agree, but only because people in those situations are lacking in accountability, and so in my eyes are incapable of making true choices in the way that those without such afflictions can. They cannot truly make a choice in many cases, and so are excluded from this analysis.

I would say that it is an explanation that transitions to excuse at the point of accountability. You don’t know what you don’t know, and it is a fact that people tend to stay within a certain economic range of what they are born into. The transition occurs when you reach psychological accountability, witness success, and then choose to not pursue it. Then it is a choice. There is not a place on Earth that is spared from the evils of comparison analysis, especially where material economics is concerned.

I have no pity in that department, and it is a choice. If a person is subjected to brutality at the hands of whatever piece of the control grid is running the region they reside in to the point where there is no chance of economic upward mobility, then it is again a matter of choice. Fight and live to enact the change. Fight and die and no longer suffer. Leave. In the modern age, between the sanctuary states in the US and the general disposition of the EU there is really no reason why you can’t just up and go, or at least die trying. I would never willfully submit to such conditions while my body draws breath and I would (heartbreakingly) rather see my entire family dead than be subjugated in such horrors, so my heart is hardened towards those who choose to suffer in that fashion. The very nature of life is struggle, so to continue to struggle and suffer is a choice.

I have some fairly animalistic tendancies, so I find a strange sort of harmony in resource management via reduction of excessive population through natural means anyway. I honestly find no trouble with the idea of people killing each other off until there are enough resources to spare and so few people left that there is no need for much conflict to further ensue. It resets the clock and the cycle repeats. Hopefully one of these times we get it right.

Also, when you are impoverished, there is also the choice of whether or not to get what you need by taking it from someone else. That is always an option, but generally not the best one, which is why I said this regarding poverty:

Even more so when you consider the physical ramifications of such action. If one’s personal values hold survival over other options then fighting back or forcefully taking what you need is not going to work for you in many cases, but make no mistake, it is a choice.

I said poverty was a choice. I never said it was a fun choice, or that any of the other options are safe or leave you with a feel good vibe. I am not unsympathetic, but I hold personal accountability above all else when it comes to my species.

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With the greatest of respect I’d suggest that you pop along to a citizens advice bureau and listen in on some of the horror stories of how government agencies have left people without money; how people are left without food, shelter, medicines and how some are left with no option but to borrow from organisations who charge at many thousands of percent interest rate. Some are forced back into work when they are clearly incapable - please see a film - I Daniel Blake.

Poverty can happen to anyone in the blink of an eye, it takes an accident, domestic abuse, loss of a lovely home due to fire, a job loss, a divorce, a business mistake, a partner to help himself to the tax account to pay for flying lessons (yes, seriously) to drive people onto the streets, into bankruptcy, to suicide.

Poverty is sometimes not a choice and I can tell you, if you up against the wall you will fight against it until you have nothing left in you.

I truly, truly, truly hope nobody here ever has to experience what some have.

Forgive me if I seem harsh in my response but when I read that it’s a choice - no, no it isn’t.

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I’m not biting. Of course your finances can get wiped out in the blink of an eye, and for a myriad of awful reasons. But those are events that happen to people. Poverty is a sustained condition. I have been very, very hungry in my life, I have been homeless to the point of living in a tent or abandoned building. And believe me, I have been fucked over hard by establishment reps and by those who were close to me. But any time the event persisted into a condition it was because of my choices. Any time the event did not turn into a condition it was because of my choices. Horrible things happen to decent folks, and it sucks, but the reality is that poverty is what comes afterwards, and your choices after the event are the ultimate influence on that poverty. So, I still feel it is a choice. Like I said, having a choice is not the same thing as having good options. This is not a judgment thing, and I am not coming from a mean spirited perspective. I simply feel that as magickians we are responsible for forging our road in life, so why would I not hold my analysis of poverty to the same standard?

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Yes, if everyone is a magician and if you are actively practising, but not everyone does so for a variety of reasons or thinks to do so.

One very valid reason is depression, magick isn’t necessarily the first thing that you consider if you are in a depressive episode, and if you have an element of desperation in your work - how do you imagine that would be?

And no, I wrote that before you posted your response so it wasn’t for the purpose of a bite! Simply to advise that whatever experience you’ve had is possibly very different to that of many others.

I’m sorry if you felt I was goading you, not the case.

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I suppose the technical argument would be about staying in poverty (yup, got posted while I was tying this :slight_smile: ).

But here’s something to consider, imagine a life with the following:

  • no clean water
  • no indoor plumbing
  • no birth control if you’re married
  • no sex outside marriage without risking diseases that can cripple or kill you, and any kids you conceive afterwards
  • next to no medical care, except splints and bed rest
  • no TV
  • no internet
  • every few winters, you run out of food, and have to bleed the few farm animals you have left to try and get some protein
  • no hope of that ever changing.

if you’d kill yourself at that stage, or struggle to cope, and this is addressed to anyone reading this obvs, not one specific person, then you’re a fucking pussy, because those were the conditions of life for thousands of years for our ancestors, and they managed to do what was needed to get us here - and also, fight in wars, survive plagues and civil disputes, and annual uncertainty about the harvest.

Aside from the fact probably not even a fraction of one percent of humans are magicians? :wink:

Seriously, I go so far along that road and yes, I agree about letting poverty persist being a choice, but still, it requires a degree of environmental support.

Poverty is relative, for a start - most people would think themselves poor now if they didn’t have internet and a phone, but just 15 years ago smartphones didn’t really exist, and 30 years ago no-one had the internet except a handful of (godlike) nerds.

60 years ago in England, a lot of people still didn’t have a refrigerator.

And going back to my list at the top of this post, did people in 1649 choose to live like that, when everything it takes to create fancy hospitals and hydroponics farms, and jets to ship in fancy imported veg, existed lying around them?

Where do you draw the line on those people making the choice to starve, in say the potato famine, or the many low-level annual famines that hit Scotland, especially, in harsh winters?

And where does it become a complex web that is way beyond the individual, comprised of what they know they can have, what they believe and expect, and also what the society around them is geared up to provide?

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Being poor is not a sin, but remaining poor is a sin. It sounds simple enough in a “perfect, ideal world”. We all know it isn’t.

Using magick really doesn’t help much. Asking Bune, Clauneck, Ziku, Sa’lash or Nitika etc. for a few dollars is good, but if I requested five hundred dollars or more that I really need and I don’t receive it, am I wasting my time with magick?

Some say no. Others say using “sorcery” is just wrong

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I wasn’t really considering a global perspective, more what might be seen in a CAB so to speak, but yes migrants and refugees have encountered such things.

Depression again can lead someone to want to kill themselves as can shame, for example if you are taking out loans to keep loved ones in a lifestyle and they are unaware or unaccepting of the difficulties you are facing financially. Men especially find it difficult to confide and tell their wives that they can’t have xyz as they then feel that they aren’t the good provider that society expects or advertises.

It’s messed up. Really messed up.

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It’s up to you, only your own opinion matters - why should you care what others think?

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No worries. When I say “I’m not biting” it is just my personal vernacular for “I do not agree”. No goading perceived, lol. We are having an intelligent discussion.

I tend to agree with you on that. @Lady_Eva also said something to that effect:

To which I expounded further:

I would consider certain cases of incapacitating depression to fall into this category. But again, in most cases, if you are aware of other options and you don’t pursue them then it is a choice. A very real, but very cruel choice must be made.

I am meaning “choice” in this context: once you are aware of more than one possible course of action, any action you take is a choice. Here’s a silly but literal example; I am aware of the possibility that a person can commit suicide. Therefore every single day I choose to stand up and live is a choice, even if I was not suicidal. Once you are aware of other options any action you make is a choice.

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A few of my friends (brothers BTW) always cry that I make excuses for choices. Big trump supporters.
Others see that my options are pretty shitty, and as many dream boards, positive thinking, praying, none helped dramatically.
I don’t buy either that poverty makes one a better person.
Let me tell you a bit about poverty I’m around, because IT managers never hired and had the worst BS interview questions …
I was taken in by a friend, but its shady sometimes. Crack became a hot commodity in the hood, especially those that seemed normal. There are no jobs above minimum wage, and its a bit cutthroat to even get one of those shitty jobs.
Then there is my car I sold for rent money one year. I sold all my electronics the year before to meet bills.
So, having no money, no vehicle, makes things difficult.
I eat from the charity of food pantries.
I do pretty much nothing exciting.

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So what was my choice?

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33

Hmmn. But he is working on this:

https://archive.fo/y2n7h

^WaPo HATE him, and still had to admit this.

https://archive.fo/WyIVB

https://archive.fo/yEMIY

http://www.magapill.com/p/trump-expands-broadband-internet-to-rural-america.htm

https://archive.fo/Ofb01

A point I’m making simply because poverty has always existed, under all administrations.

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Are you aware of other options? If you are, then you can bet there was a choice or two that has been made. Like I said, there is a huge difference between having choices and having options that appeal to you.

The better question is what are you doing to rectify that, successfully or not? If the answer is “nothing”, then that is a choice. If the answer is “something, but it is not working” then that is also a choice.

Look, I am not trying to be cruel and I have zero problems with anyone because of their economic position. I am not exactly Uncle Pennybags myself. I am simply saying that the second one accepts that there is no choices to be made that individual loses all power, magickally or otherwise. If you consider that the simple act of being alive is a type of magick, and magick is the cause of change through will, then it is a logical fallacy that a person could have no choices but still live.

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@Woodsman81? Are you Mr. Trump by any chance?

If accountability is:

  • showing up to work everyday
  • paying my bills
  • paying my rent
  • looking out for my roommates
  • paying my taxes
  • staying out of trouble and no criminal record still
  • doing my job right and properly

And I still ended up losing my job and becoming homeless.

Oh, and my food stamps (EBT) card. Gotta love that $190 a month to spend on food!

And, Medicaid/Obamacare. Gotta have medical insurance, no matter how crappy it is.

I am very thankful and grateful. It’s also unfair that those who abide by the law and do the right thing have to suffer!

Crooked men/pedophiles that sexually assault women can live in luxury and only get a slap on the wrist when caught. Even become President! These fat cats send good paying jobs overseas and hire some foreigner that makes it past Border Patrol or steps of a plane with a HB-1 Visa.

Even college/university degrees have become a joke! And, soon robots are going to take all the jobs anyway!

Accountability, sir? Where the fuck is it? I sure as hell don’t see it.

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36

Can you get a cheap webcam and do tutorials on your Tarot stuff?

You have a better technical understanding of that, the elements and stuff, than most people.

I don’t understand monetizing YouTube but it seems to be possible, you set up, do a few vids, start replying to people with a medium sized follwoing, throw in clickbait readings (that’s not meant insultingly) about political events, add some dark humour, you might make SOME money, but better still, you’d have a project going on.

Just one idea based on your avatar because it looks pretty much like a spooky Tarot guy if you know what i eman. :smiley:

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Oooooooh, if only I could put my situation in words!!!
And you won’t even explain me my reading!! :((
I am to do a evocation, of an extreme kind.

Oh well,

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05184f28c7ea4b2265715e8ee773731725c220-wm.jpg640×920 119 KB

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The avatar is meant to look like King Paimon.

Even so, Google Youtube is about to close up that opportunity soon. Especially with the lack of Net Neutrality.

Not a excuse. Just facts.

Eminem is right. We just have to use the cards we’re dealt.

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I was actually replying to Fuego whilst trying to think if I had anything helpful to say to you about positive, productive things you could do. :slight_smile:

Are you sure? A lot of BS has been talked about that, but YT’s model needs people on it, so long as you stay away from non-leftist political or historical stuff you should be okay.

If you had a webcam it couldn’t hurt to try, if you’re literally unemployed and going cabin-fever crazy?

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