Is Goetia and Shemhamforash same?

An argument we carried on PM with a member of this forum turns out was a misunderstanding, and what that person meant was 72 demons and 72 angels are same.Which I cant say anything about.Although I still believe they are different beings working together on something,research has gave mixed opinions, and I wont be planning to work with either for a long time, so, I want to see more opinions on this subject, thank you.

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There’s an argument the 72 angels are names of the godlike parts of Man-as-God and that the 72 demons named in grimoirs are the 72 corresponding vices and aspects given to coprruption, but I think that was people using a system with numbers, cramming names into it.

That would arguably make them polarities of the same force.

With Solomon/the person/people who made the grimoires, I think the 72 “bound spirits” relate to an older system, into which other peoples where crammed in - for example I have seen that Bime or Buné is actually the Egyptian goddess Wadjet, but I don’t possess full knowledge of All The Things™, and neither does anyone else so I can only say that my current understanding is that this is incorrect, and an attempt to force a diverse mix of spirits into a framework based upon a form of 3D geometry (not simple mathematics) we can barely comprehend. :thinking:

I think you’d be able to work this as a system however if you contact, for example, the “Belial-within” (as he himself did suggest I do sometimes) in which case you blur the lines of what’s within your larger superconscious mind, and what’s objectively different.

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Lol I can figure whom the argument was with…

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:grin:

Crowley named the 72 spirits of the Goetia ‘Shem ha Mephorash’ as a joke in his version of the Lesser Key. From there people copy and paste…

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@Lady_Eva Thank you for your insight and opinion, but, my English has failed me in this.

Can you tell it like you would tell to a dummy? :sweat_smile:

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Well, according to Rufus Opus in his Modern Goetic Grimoire, the 72 spirits of the Lesser Key are actually from a much older system of magick that predates the neo-Platonic models and celestial hierarchies contained within the Solomonic system. He believes this ancient form of magick was a type of shamanism so the only records its practitioners left behind were the lists of spirit names, which were then taken by the renaissance authors of the grimoires and tacked onto their hierarchical system, with enough valid information to make the whole thing work.

If this is truly the case, then the spirits of what we know as the Ars Goetia really have nothing to do with the 72 angels of the Shemhamforash, because they predate such hierarchies. However, they can still be worked within that system, as my own aspect experiment can attest to.

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I recently took part in a group pathworking where I called the Goetic and Shemhamphorash entity having the same number in pairs… every time (all 72 of them) they manifested distinctly as unique beings.

That would arguably make them polarities of the same force.

This was the premise of pairing them, but tbh my experience didn’t really give me any insight into how this could be the case. They sometimes talked about the same subject, and sometimes they didn’t. It was more like a 3 way call with individuals than talking to complementary forces.

New sigils were channeled (not by me) for every entity separately, in order to avoid layering in expectations from prior work with them via the seals/goetia sigils.

So my feeling, is, no they are not the same, they’re not even complements, and DarkestKnight’s info makes a lot of sense as to why.

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yes i think so too, they are different i believe

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Nope, they are not the same

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