I feel like we're all standing at the edge of chaos

Soul Travel, Planes & Ascended Masters
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I used to be a Christian, and when you are such, there tends to be this… Mental safety net. That there was at least SOMEONE watching over everything and that, someway, somehow, things would be made right. Having broken away from that religion and going into the vast world of magick and the occult, I feel far less comfortable and much more afraid.

Usually I’ve noticed that when people come into this kind of occult life, they tend to be very excited or at least perfectly fine with everything, spiritual wise. But for me, breaking off from Christianity has just slowly filled me with dread.

I know that there are such beautiful wonders in the spirit world too amazing to even write about. I know that there’s many, many good people out there and (I hope) also good deities, but it seems my focus inevitably gets drawn not to that, but to the horrible, unfair, and oppressive darkness that opposes light and life in general. The sheer selfishness that threatens to, sooner or later, engulf everything into a truly endless nightmare of misery with nothing and no one to save us.

If there’s no deity that is truly all-powerful or, alternatively, if there’s no powerful enough deity that is willing to intervene in a spiritual sense to pull us from those horrible beings and energies which sap energy and and inflict endless pain… What then are we supposed to do? Are we all just dicking around on the edge of a cliff, completely oblivious to, or trying to ignore the abyssal fiends and entities which belong there waiting for us to fall in?

This shit keeps me up at night. I don’t have any answers. I just try to accumulate as much knowledge and power to myself as possible and hope dearly that things aren’t as bad at all in the spiritual realm as I’m imagining.

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After reading your post it seemed as though I had written it myself. I’m torn between trying to console you and trying to explain what I do to cope. I am in a darker state of mind then you appear to be so I will spare any of my more sinister thoughts for the time being.

I suspect that this is a common theme amongst a lot of us and anticipate plenty of input from others. I may chime in again as the thread develops. I see you recently joined the forum. It is nice to have you here with us.

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Well, you can be an occultists and also Christian We have a few members on the forum that do that.

I would suggest examining why the Christian gods can’t be part of your pantheon in the occult. Are you actually only leaving a particular church, and not the deities involved? You can “have your cake and eat it too”, here.

I would say, this deity is actually you. If you do the inner work you will find this out.

Personally I don’t believe the Christian dogma that there’s anything like an abyss with fiends in it Such things are later additions by the Catholic church and designed to control people through fear - they’re not real, hell is not part of the original Christianity before the church corrupted it (and threw out 42 books of original cannon for being too spiritual) either - these have nothing to do with the actual teachings of Yeshuah the Nazorean.
Maybe take a look at the “Red Letters” before you make up your mind?

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In fact I think is the contrary, because we’re mages we are in fact or far from the abyss or already crossed it. Some people in the occult managed to get out of almost impossible shady situations with Magick, and help not only themselves but their friends, others, however, goes to the so called Dark Night of the Soul (me included) where we fail or win and the victory brings you better abilities (entities will value you more, you will have more stronger Will). This becomes even more true if you consider that most of the “parasitic fiends” (here called obsessors/obsessores in Brazil) were “unawakened” people (people that are not magicians) who died with some heavy addiction or killed themselves.

Adding more stuff: many mages in the past were Christians like the famous Saint Cyprian, and even that his conversion to Catholicism may not have been purely real (as I think he only adhered to the angels and Christian deity because it would also help in his works) He was also a guy who helped people resolve internal and external conflicts, offering both magical and practical solutions. Like the time he helped a woman not get pregnant (because in that time there was no condom to common people) teaching her how to use a sponge as a coddon to her spouse.

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It is obvious, people drawning into rabbit hole and hope that they will found there something better

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Oh, I’m not a Christian anymore. Or at least, I don’t believe in or am heavily suspicious of the alleged superiority of any Christian god.

That is indeed what it seems from all my research and passive looking on, but there’s still stories out there of spirits getting trapped in a horrible place and even spirits getting outright obliterated. Now, it could have been that those spirits simply didn’t know what to do in such situations at all, but still… I worry. A lot.

Oh, it doesn’t need to be based in Christian theology. In fact, it would have been better if they were since that would also imply some measure of controls in place for such a place and such beings. What I’m worrying about instead is something more Lovecraftian instead of Christian. Of course, Lovecraft was an ardent atheist, so I don’t think he was talking about stuff he actually saw or heard talk of at all, but still, from what I can gather, the spirit world seems to operate on the law that, whatever can be imagined, there it is.

Could you define this a little more?

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If you look at the christian mythology is way worse, since if you go to hell it’s infinite punishment and pain (there’s no such thing as that) even if someone becomes an obsessor (got lost in the Threshold in the astral) it will still end by either get rescued by some empathetic spirit or you will die the second death (will stop existing). Also, if you look at the concept of God itself it’s kinda Lovecraftian by nature, because it’s something beyond our understanding, but the thing that Lovecraft missed is that God is at the same time incomprehensible and comprehensible (It’s everything and the nothing; it’s at the same time far from us and very close to us).

And even if you observe how some deities act in our world they can be considered some type of anti-Lovecraftian in a way that some deities are far older than humanity itself and that our human body (not our soul) is so limited make so that we became significant to the deities. Just look at mythologies like Greek where gods fell in love with humanity, and in the Book of Enoch where the Watchers (beings that I believe that created the necessary conditions to our solar system shelter life) that were supposed to just be sentinels and don’t interact with us, they also fell in love with humanity.

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The safety net that you talk about seems quite
Familiar but I can’t seem to put my finger on it

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If a soul can be trapped forever, then yes, there very much could be such a thing as that.

While not as bad as being trapped forever perhaps, this still sounds horrible.

I have (generally) not seen benevolence from pagan deities. From the northern Native Americans who were massacred despite their best spiritual efforts, to the South American natives who got utterly plowed down by the Spanish despite making human sacrifices. Or how about the witch trials all around Europe and North America where witches were burned at the stake despite at least a few actual witches making deals with spiritual entities? Where was the protection then? Where was the love from such deities?

By the way, I should say I am NOT arguing in favor of God here. There’s a long list of fun things he’s responsible for as well throughout history.

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Again said there beings on a higher level/plane then our physical bodies
To them we are just our souls. They only get worried by total soul death and nothing less

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No, no soul can be trapped forever (maybe be the spirit of a person, which is not the soul, the soul is a piece of God that resides in you) and even if the spirit is trapped someone just need to free it from the receptacle. And as said, even if you become an obsessor in astral there are still some entities responsible for rescuing lost spirits.

First of all, some of them were not even witches or mages, just people that were known to do herbal medicine, and even if there was some witches in the trials, magick (most of the time, saved by few exceptions that I’ll talk about later) do not make you invulnerable or fail-proof. There’s also the factor of Will :vs: Will, where the Will of the frightened population (or even another sorcerer who was secretly commanding this slaughter) won the Will of others.

About the deities protecting their followers (using the examples that you gave), sometimes not all deities are pro humans and some don’t care about their followers getting massacred by guns and diseases. You can see that the deity (or deities) that the Mayans cultuated were not so friendly to their followers since they asked tons of human sacrifices (even some of the most wicked beings that I contacted and read about just will ask for a sacrifice just one single time), and they don’t delivered anything probably because the “deities” that the Mayans contacted were very low beings with no actual power (since why they’re vampirising their population). And even in the case of the Abrahamaic religion, Yahweh told his followers to take the babies from their enemies and smash their heads on rocks. All of this assuming that were their actual deities and god telling them do to this, and not actual human psychopaths telling them to do that.

There’s also examples of deities actual caring about their followers… In Haiti for example when CIA send agents to steal the zombification formula they couldn’t get anything from the recipe that was stolen, it didn’t work without the powers granted by the Lwa. The nation of Haiti itself is protected from the all consumerism and western trends that it make the country still looks like the 2000’s. The Lwa (many Lwa), for being close to our physical realm, when they possess someone (and that person most of the time is a disciplined medium that is experienced and ready to receive and translate their powers) the possessed enters in some type of “Quantum immortality” where they can jump from cliffs, eat shards of glass and nails, walk through fire and actually die and come back to life again, all of it without side effects.

But all of this that I said would be useless and a lie if I not tell you that to be a mage/witch/sorcerer is to seek the “Truth” or simply not wanting to and still get it spilled in your face, and to our mundane existence and to our limited ways of thinking the “Truth” can be hard to digest and impact all of our life. Sometimes there’s just they way some people are, some people are not ready to know how the Universe, the Nexus, and by extension God itself is at the same time so complicated yet so simple, that’s why religion exist. I, unlike others, do not believe that religion is in itself harmful, and that religion is a way of helping people who need to have spiritual contact and knowledge while not revealing all the grandeur of things so that those who are not prepared do not lose their minds by trying to tie all the conflict ideas that the totality is made of.

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We are from different religions and I understand that we are in different situations but in your case one of the things is that when you give up the religion you believe in, you also lose your habits and that’s why you are afraid because when you believe you don’t do spells so nothing bad will happen to you (at least in these matters) that’s why you are afraid

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I feel you. I’m from a religious, Catholic country though never had caught the Catholic bug myself and am currently what many people would perhaps even call an “anti-theist” (long story). I also went through a psychotic episode in the course of which I nearly converted to becoming a God-fearing, obedient little boyo. But my actual beliefs and Will managed to hold me together throughout that, even though I had to deal with tremendous amounts of dread and my perception of reality going all wonky before my very eyes.

But since you’re a magus, you can find a different sinthome (a term from Lacanian psychoanalysis, it’s something of a governing function of the symbolic order) to keep yourself from falling into despair and dread. That’s what magick is for, I believe! (Apart from being awesome and doing awesome feats). You can create your own order, you can acknowledge the abyss we’re facing and actually, through your Will and your Power, do something about it.

I’m a funny guy because despite my “anti-theism” I work with, f. in. YHWH energies. :slight_smile:

All the best to you!

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My advice, from a very limited perspective of wisdom or getting things right in life, is just don’t trap yourself with your own magick, or lose to someone who has cursed you with something really nasty to bring death or trap your soul. Believe in your own ability to pull yourself out of any hell you find yourself in ( which may very well happen on your journey from time to time ).

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That is the way things appear. We were created by a cruel and sadistic space alien. Eve was framed in the Garden of Eden. As her children we are born guilty of a crime we did not commit. This is god admitting that he has created us with a “defect”. Then as punishment for 75 or 80 years of “worldly pleasures” we will fry forever in hellfire. That is fair, right ? Forever in the flames.

God does not keep his own laws. “Thou shalt not murrder” yet the old testament is full of him murdering innocent people. This is our defense against the accuser on judgement day. Our only sense of satisfaction and accomplishment in this life is to expose and condemn our creator for the crimes he is guilty of.

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