I recently read that in Quimbanda, they don’t use trance to work with spirits. Can anyone knowledgeable in the subject confirm or deny this?
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I’m sorry that’s your personal opinion about it, not what is it about according to those sources. Again you want the concept to fit your belief… it’s psychology or it doesn’t exist. This is against reality. You test the concept if you wish and believe what you want. But to simply to keep rejecting all resources about it, and pretending that it doesn’t exist or it’s nothing more than psychology, that’s forcing your beliefs to fit reality.
You’re talking now like we live in the stone age… never heard of the subconscious before, everything written about it is not true, or those guys who invented a whole new kind of magick around it, didn’t really do that.
No. It can be tested. Do you understand this point correctly ? We can validate any concept or idea or reject it based on experiments and results. You are trying to get everything back to point zero, where all is true and all is not. No one knows anything and everyone knows everything.
I gave two examples of two different ways of doing magick. It’s the exact same process, the exact same mechanism, the exact same results. One uses spirit and the other doesn’t. I outlined a THEORY of how it works. You’re rejecting it but not only that, you’re trying to re-write history and simply debunking Chaos magick and how it works and why it works according to the people who invented it.
Of course I can, are you kidding me ? 
Ever heard of hypnosis ? Wait, That’s psychology not magick. The SAME exact principle is used in magick. What you think Trance is ? What is Theta - Gamma ? BRAIN waves. They are called brainwaves for a reason. Get in the right brainwave and follow the right steps and you create magick. That’s exactly what EA demonstrated in the candle spell video I mentioned here. Please watch it.
1 - Relax mind and body
2 - Chant a statement of intent or any word you want while focusing your vision on the candle until you get in trance.
3 - Once you enter trance state you recall your intention or end result and invoke the feeling of it happening
4 - When your mind can’t hold this state anymore, and all your emotions and will power are exhausted, end the ritual with absolute certainty what you want already happened.
Replace the candle with anything, Demons’s sigil or your own selfie, replace the chant with any words you choose, try your own name backwards. You will ALWAYS get the same effect.
That’s what Franz Bardon and Levi and all those magicians explained. The Baphomet is a symbol for this process. TRY IT then debate or reject. I’m suggesting that the subconscious is responsible for that. You’re saying no… fine with me. We have brains and we can test things out. When someone tells you something you can validate what he says easily by using simple and clear logical process and common sense. You don’t have to study rocket science to do that.
I’m not saying this is absolute truth, I’m not rejecting other people’s beliefs or ideas. All I’m saying is that from my view, this is the best explanation. It’s scientific - from my view and according to my 20+ study and practice of magick - and it explains many if not all occult knowledge and spiritual teachings, but most important, it’s verifiable by any kind of tests you choose to perform. That’s more than enough for me.
If anyone disagrees with that, perfectly fine. all opinions are equally respected. I’m not promoting anything or preaching anything. In fact, as many already mentioned… this is nothing new !!!
Didn’t read that so I can’t judge what’s written in it. Here is what I know for what its worth…
Trance state can be achieved in two different ways …
1 - Through deep relaxation of mind and body - Theta brainwave
That’s how most sympathetic magick works.
2 - Through extreme mental concentration and emotions - Beta Brainwave
That’s how a curse is performed !
In those two states, by using will power to re-focus the mind on a specific thought or desired end result, and not allow the mind to change that focus for period of time, Gamma brainwave is generated and magickal effects happen.
The books I mentioned explain that in more detail. And there are other resources you can find regarding this mechanism. They even explain how you could know if the trance state was powerful enough to create magickal effect or not. Something that many magicians are questioning and never found a direct and clear answer for. Why magick happens sometimes and other times it doesn’t happen !
That’s what I know, thank you 
You are still debating?
This is like philosophic theories…everybody got its own but wanna sleep with someone else’s 
Can’t you see that you are all stuck on your initial positions?
You have your point of view,they have their own.
Can you at least agree on that?
Nobody is wrong,ffs!
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Best
I’m completely ok with that. I even stated many times consider what I said absolute nonsense if you don’t agree with it. I never intended to make this a debate and clearly said that in the original first post… it’s for experimentation and testing, based on that everyone can believe what he-she wants to believe.
Instead of testing and research… well, can’t complain, we all learn from each other! 
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Things go outta hand when you have people who give quotes from different sources/authors…books for example and authors belong to different school of thought…who is right vs who is wrong and eventually you end up with measuring dicks 
And in case you end up measuring dicks I suggest using a thermometer
P.S. In magic nobody holds unquestionable authority.
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My Anaconda would need hundreds of those 
Absolutely true, not only in magick.
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Wrong. You obviously don’t understand what I’m saying. I am saying that both you and the Chaos Magick sources are taking the existence of the subconscious as an a priori fact, when it is not. “A priori” means that you assume the fact of its existence without any direct evidence for it.
Only by assuming its existence does using it as the mechanism of magick make sense, and all I did was point out how that is exactly what those that believe in God do. They can’t point to any evidence of God that can’t be disputed, just as you can’t point to any evidence of the subconscious that can’t be disputed.
I am not rejecting anything but your assertion that the subconscious is objectively real, without providing anything to back it up. You can claim it is real all you want, but it is still the equivalent of saying God did it, if there is no indisputable evidence for it. Many people here make claims about being the incarnation of a god, or demon or whatnot, but unless they can provide evidence of themselves shrugging off a bullet, flying through the air, or teleporting from one place to the other, it is simply a subjective claim with no objective reality, just like the subconscious.
You do know this statement proves my exact point, right? You are assuming the existence of the subconscious based on what you have read about it, what is commonly held to be true regarding it, and on what is inferred from certain results, NOT any sort of objective evidence like you are claiming, and the founders of Chaos Magick did exactly the same thing.
There is a huge difference between direct and indirect evidence.
Again, no, that is not the way experimentation works. What it does, if done properly, is create a working model for something. It does not proclaim that “the subconscious is real.” It says, “this was the result of the experiment and it seems to show that our hypothesis is correct concerning the existence of what we are calling the subconscious, but more data needs to be gathered, because there is the chance we are wrong.”
That is the scientific method in a nutshell, and I have already pointed out how your “experiment” does not meet that criteria because you are using subjective concepts that cannot be proven right or wrong.
No, as I have explained numerous times already, what I am disputing is your claim of the objective existence of the subconscious. I have never once said anything about rejecting the theories around Chaos magick, nor yours, for that matter. The concept of the subconscious is as good a theory as any, but it is far from objective fact nor is it scientific.
As I already have repeated numerous times, an altered state DOES NOT prove the subconscious is real at all.
C’mon, man. You have not once explained how changing your brainwaves proves your theory about the subconscious, or even if it exists at all. All you have done is shown a possible connection between that altered state and what you call the magical effect, something the majority of us already accept as true. It does not prove that your “subconscious” is real or that it is the true cause of that effect. That is just your attempt to bridge the gap between the brainwave state and the effect. Correlation does not equal causation, as they say.
I have altered my brainwaves many times, but never once has it proven I have a subconscious mind.
And that is my entire point. You want to claim that the subconscious is responsible for all magical effects? Fine. It’s not anything new, and is just one theory among many as to how magick works.
However, you wanted to dress your theory up in false scientific jargon and made spurious claims about the objective existence of the subconscious and being able to prove your assertions, and that is what I took issue with. because, so far, you have proved nothing about whether the subconscious is real or not, only the link between an altered state and a subjective magical affect.
No one can prove the existence of the subconscious mind. Hell, even scientifically proving consciousness can’t be done, and science only begrudgingly accepts its possible existence because of unexplained variables like the placebo effect. Some scientists don’t even believe the mind exists at all, or that it is anything but a result of chemical interactions within the physical brain, because you cannot point to it and say, “Ah, there is the mind”.
We can have as many theories regarding the mechanism behind magick as we want, and we do have quite a few, but they are not scientific, no matter how much you want to claim they are, because they cannot be proven wrong. That is why it is pseudoscience, not science. It’s just subjective concepts dressed in a wig, and wearing science’s trousers trying to pass itself off as scientific.
You cannot prove that the subconscious exists and that it is responsible for all magical effects just as I cannot prove the subconscious does not exist and isn’t responsible. That is what makes it subjective, not objective, and thus not scientific.
Whether it’s the subconscious, the soul, or God, either way, it cannot be proven true or false.
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Hiya! I’ve noticed that people here seem to closely relate their identities to the work or experiences they talk about here, and that can lead to inadvertently offending them by offering a contradictory or unusual perspective. I don’t think it’s unusual. 
My perspective might seem unusual, too, but that’s because I’ve learned to trust my spirit/gut and only five years ago realized people called this stuff ‘magic’. I came to see that people only care how their will gets done if they’re trying to undo it. shrugs
I agree with your points about the subconscious and trance, but IME there’s more to the story. The universe is made up of vibrations and fractals, so width and depth are basically the bones of everything! Trances allow you to change your vibration, which brings you closer to other vibrations and further away from others still. So ‘magic’ to me means vibrational stimulation in an esoteric or symbolic capacity, and since people and spirits are all individual vibrations in broad frequencies and wavelengths, communicating is just a matter of ‘vibing together’. You could call the symbols the way our subconscious recognizes those energies, but the question of if man received or generated symbolism will never be properly answered. IME interacting with Spirits it varies, sometimes a symbol is used like a sound engineer but other times it’s hard to tell if that’s not just the Spirit’s ‘skin’.
So spells to me are like instruments, creating vibrations in a context. Music is a top-notch medium!
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So you disagree with me and you disagree with all chaos magicians including the founders themselves ? Then we agree to disagree on that. But that’s really interesting point of view. You can’t see any evidence that the subconscious is responsible of anything even that practical practice proved it, from the actual results for decades. But you believe in the existence of spirits because…? Not saying they do not exist, I’m only saying that there is a lot more evidence to support the subconscious than spirits.
Not accurate. I’m assuming the existence of the subconscious because : 1 - it’s already well known concept among psychologists for ages, not all of them agree on that, but not all people accept the fat that earth is round either ! 2 - I also accept it because practical practice - Chaos magick and hypnosis for example - proved by test, examination, experimentation and direct results that can be proven and repeated, that it does exist. 3 - I also accept it because of my personal experience with it and how I use it in magick almost every single day. This is not only “subjective evidence” because there is huge part of it based on objective reality. Your whole body is taking care of itself subconsciously, not consciously. So the idea that the existence of the subconscious is up for debate is not accurate at all. It’s up for debate only the same way people debate the moon landing and earth being round and not flat. With all respect.
So this is not what science is, not what scientific means, not what chaos magick is about, and now it’s not why experimentation works.
awesome !
You understand that I know what you’re trying to do here, do you ?
Fine, please take your dispute to professional psychologists and chaos magicians. Those are my resources. If disagree and want to debate about it then I’m sure they will be more than welcome anytime. What I’m doing here is making a statement, an opinion or theory with supporting evidence and practical practice that anyone on earth can test and verify. And included my resources for further study. You want to turn all that into an endless debate to make it all fall apart without discussing the subject itself. Not going to happen.
That’s what you’re saying. That’s your opinion. I respect it but all evidence doesn’t support it so I have to disagree with it.
It’s not my theory Again you want me to reinvent the wheel for you here. If you want to study or research the existence of the subconscious please do that. There are millions of academic and occult resources that you can find if you do your own home work. I’m not going to do that for you. I’m not going to reinvent the wheel. It’s already been done in the last century.
That was interesting to read
Yes I can. It’s very simple actually. Theory + Practice + Evidence +Logic and Common sense. That’s enough for anyone with a working brain to make a decision and accept or reject any idea.There will always be disagreement and people with different opinion. Since when in all human history, we all agreed on something ? Never. That’s not a bad thing, without this there will be no progress or advancement. All scientific facts that we know today, were once presented to the world by few people, a lot less than the majority, in some cases only one, some of them even died for their opinions or theories. Think of how magicians are treated by the rest of the world for example. I’m sure within those few people there was and still is disagreement as well. It’s natural on all levels of human activity that involves another human being.
That’s why the easiest way out is simply to kill the subject of disagreement itself instead of killing the person you disagree with !!! Not necessarily physical death, but personal. Show them ignorants or offenders or evil or have a hidden agenda or outsiders doesn’t belong here or maybe working with “the other team” etc regardless of what they’re actually saying Old tricks but still being played well to this day. Unfortunately for some, it doesn’t always work.
That’s your opinion 
I completely agree with that. The subconscious as a concept was discovered way before the advancement in quantum physics, we now can improve the effect of that concept and connect it with the quantum theory to provide more advanced version that also includes energy and vibrations of different manifestations of matter. There are many books and research made on that topic, it’s still relatively new and further study need to be made to connect few dots, and also provide more solid evidence.
The spiritual element in magick will always be present. How we explain it that’s a totally different story. Many don’t even care to find an explanation and simply deal with the matter as it is. Many magicians are atheists, but they still contact and work with spirits and Gods - ones that they don’t believe in their existence ! - and have successful results. Others prefer to take more intellectual approach and adopt one theory or another.
At the end of the day, theories aside, magick , especially black magick, is all bout results. So whatever brings those results is acceptable.
Thank you
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Let’s have some Magic 101. “As above, so below.” That which is lower conforms to that which is higher. The higher planes create and dominate the lower planes. The etheric plane dominates the physical plane, the astral dominates the etheric and physical, the mental dominates all three, etc.
To have control over the physical, you must mentally shift to a higher plane. Trance work is training wheels to move past the body/soul lower mind into the higher mind. The goal is to be able to make this shift instantly without the need for trance techniques.
The human mind is neither conscious nor sentient - it is utterly dominated by the lunar dimension. Thoughts emerge in the human vehicle as though a person is thinking them, but the lunar spirits and magicians with power over the moon have total control over what emerges there. This is the utter folly of thinking, psychologizing, and belief-oriented mentation that so many adepts warn about. The thoughts that the human mind may think are manufactured, capped, and controlled within the sphere of the moon. If you’ve worked with the lunar spirits, you will have gotten long lectures on the importance of ruthlessly subjugating and ruling mankind - it is their main agenda because the moon dominates the physical and ehteric plane - they want to keep the clockwork mechanism of the lower planes running smoothly and sentient creatures undermine that agenda. So they manufacture a world of illusionary thought that only references the physical plane and keeps you trapped in the physical and dominated by it. To get power over the physical, you must get power over the moon–to get power over the moon, you must go above the moon and into your higher mind.
Solve et Coagula - dissolve (pointing up) and coagulate (pointing down). The limitations of the lower self are overcome by dissolving the lower lunar mind into the higher mind which causes them to blend and resolve into a new hybrid being that has the power and functionalities of both the high and the low. First the moon is above him (solve), but when the operation is complete (coagula), the moon is beneath him. He is now an enlightened being. The image also codes the goat of Capricorn slaying the Ram of Ares. The image of Baphoment depicts enlightenment and power being gained through the subjugation of the sun and the moon by a magician who is a “two-sexed” hybrid of high and low.
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awesome thank you
I think it’s better to open a different thread for that, I’m sure many would love to learn from your valuable experience and focus on what you’re willing to share with them instead of being distracted from the main topic here
Do you believe that Gravity exist and can be proven true or false ?
I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to understand where I’m going with this
As Carl Jung said, “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
But as I see you believe their existence and subconscious mind is “mainly” a gate or a bridge
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Thank you so much for your inspiring comment and sharing your thoughts and experience,
I completely agree with everything you said. Couldn’t say it better
Really appreciate it,
Exactly! That’s the whole point of using the subconscious in magick and this is the foundation of Chaos magick. To make the unconscious conscious. Thank you!
Of course I believe in their existence. But their role in magick… that’s I’m not so sure about until now. There is nothing to suggest - to me - that the effects of magick are caused by spiritual beings other than myself and basically hypnotizing the mind to accept the suggested alternative reality that I want to manifest. By doing that, spirits can be used in a symbolic sense to convince the mind of the idea, to give it impressive visual, logical and emotional reason to give up doubt and accept that this suggested reality is done spiritually and going to manifest physically.
Not saying that this is true or The truth. Only saying that I didn’t find enough reason or evidence to suggest otherwise, and found enough evidence to support the role of the subconscious sphere of mind in magick.
But I have no doubt at all that spirits exist. I encounter their existence in my life almost on daily bases.
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Actually, no. Gravity is a concept, like the subconscious, created to explain certain physical phenomena, and, just like the subconscious, we don’t know the mechanism behind it or how it really works, which, if you recall was my statement at the very beginning. It is another one of those concepts that moved from science theory into common usage that everyone takes for granted, but no one knows precisely what it is or even what causes it, and the only “proofs” for it are high level mathematical equations. You could say that what we call gravity is actually the brainwaves of God, and no one could prove you wrong.
Science considers gravity to be one of the fundamental laws of the physical universe, but we still only know about it by how it acts upon observable objects. It’s existence is only inferred by its effect, through deductive reasoning. What this means is that when an object is observed to fall, though there is no one around to act upon it physically, then a reasonable conclusion can be drawn that there must be some other force acting upon that object to bring it to the ground. Through such observations like this, the concept of gravity was formulated. Deductive reasoning moves from specific instances, to a general conclusion. A ball thrown up in the air will fall to earth, and a brick dropped from a height will fall to earth, therefore some force must act upon all objects thrown in the air to bring them down. Notice how deductive reasoning does not state how gravity works, only that it does. It also states that gravity is a reasonable conclusion, but not an absolute fact.
As I have pointed out multiple times already, the existence of the subconscious, contrary to your claims, is only inferred from observable behavior. The subconscious is a concept created to explain otherwise unexplained behavior. If we again use deductive reasoning, we observe that some people act contrary to their usual nature. When asked, they say they can’t explain why they act in such a way. From such observations, Freud drew the reasonable conclusion that somewhere in the mind must lie motivations unknown to the conscious awareness, but that still effect outward behavior. Thus, the idea of the subconscious was born.
However, you are trying to use inductive reasoning to prove your argument because you are starting from the conclusion that there is such a thing as a subconscious and that it is somehow connected to the universe at large and you are using that conclusion to “prove” your premise that it is responsible for all magical efects, instead of the other way around.
quote=“ZAMRAN, post:76, topic:40118”]
As Carl Jung said, “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
[/quote]
Carl Jung was a psychologist who studied under Freud, from where the entire concept of the subconscious originated. This quote has absolutely nothing to do with magick and everything to do with internal motivations for observable behavior. Jung became a mystic later on and is the one mainly responsible for tying mystical conclusions to the concept of Freud’s unconscious, but that doesn’t make it fact or truth.
You have proved nothing in regards to the subconscious, and I’m not going to keep beating a dead horse. I really don’t see why people have this pressing need to mix mystical and religious thought with science jargon, but, it just seems like an attempt to somehow give more validity to their own beliefs, in the same way creationists try to use science to prove Intelligent Design by cherry picking certain theories.
Can’t help but notice you ignored the part of my statement where I said that I have changed my brainwaves many times, but never once have I discovered a subconscious. I can go into Alpha, and Theta, and Delta, but never has it proved anything to me about the subconscious. You keep telling me to test it, and I flat out told you I have many times, but it has not proven anything you are saying. My magical results can easily be attributed to the Grace of God or the action of unknown extra dimensional energies, or aliens, as much as to the subconscious mind, but you don’t seem to really want to hear that.
I am done with this debate, because I have already proven the theory you espouse as invalid for myself. Altered brainwaves do not prove the existence of the subconscious, nor do hey prove this “subconscious” is responsible for magical effects. Whether you accept that or not, is up to you.
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There is a difference between knowing the nature of something, and recognizing the nature its existence. We know gravity exists, what we don’t know is it’s nature. We know the subconscious mind exists, we don’t know the exact nature of it or the limitations of its effect.
We don’t know the nature of gravity, but we know exactly how it works and we already used this knowledge in many areas of our lives. The same with the subconscious mind. Is the subconscious only an organ in the brain? Part of the nerves system of the body? Is it connected to the universal consciousness or unconnected ? That’s up to us to prove, the same way we proved its existence. And that’s what psychology and Chaos Magick already did ages ago.
That’s why I don’t have to or need to prove what’s already been proven just because you reject it. My objective is to make a statement and present an idea, not convince anyone with it. That’s for each individual to do based on their own research, study and experimentation.
If you care to know or learn… there are unlimited resources available. If you don’t, then I’m happy for you.
Good luck
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And yet you reject my conclusions when I say that I have done such research and experimentation. In fact, it was the first stuff i tested when I got into magick. You claim to want “testing” but in reality you just don’t want any conclusions that contradict yours.
Um…now you are just contradicting yourself. Way back in the beginning, you said this:
And I replied with this:
And you replied with:
So I asked for proof, but you never provided any, and now you are saying that, in fact, I was correct, and we don’t actually know what the subconscious is or how it does what it is theorized it does? 
You can’t have it both ways, my friend. Either we know, or we don’t.
Except,we don’t know exactly how it works, because astronomers and astrophysicists have found evidence of things that contradicts what we thought we knew about gravity, and even what we observe can’t explain why or how it acts upon objects, exactly like we don’t know anything about the nature of the subconscious or how it works outside of what is theorized by observing behavior.
Again, you are refusing to accept my conclusions, drawn from my own research and testing, while also making a back handed insult by insinuating that I don’t already know. You don’t want real testing of your theory. You just want to proclaim that you are right and everyone else is wrong.
I will state it more time, since it seems really hard for you to grasp. I have proven, for myself, that your theory and conclusions are wrong, through my own experiments and study, over the course of many years. To paraphrase yourself, if you don’t care to understand that, or to learn where I’m coming from, then I’m happy for you
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