How Magick REALLY Works. Science vs Superstitions

General Discussion
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How any kind of magick really works ? What’s the mechanism behind doing all kinds of magick and spellcasting ? I will try to answer this question here. And I will use logic and scientific way of thinking to make my point. Everything I’m going to say can be TESTED and proven to be right or wrong.

The elements of doing any kind of magick or spiritual act to affect the physical material world are : Will , Imagination And Trance State.

Let’s examine this formula with real life exmaples :

1st, A spell To Cause Change By Getting In Trance While Focusing The Mind On a Candle…

In this video, there are no spirits, no demons or angels, no Gods. The focus is on the candle until the mind gets in trance state while the intention - inner attention - is on the desired goal. The effect, the desired goal or end result manifests as a physical reality or event in the real world.

2nd example, An Evocation of A Demon By Using A Sigil…

In this method, the mind is focused on the sigil of the demon THE SAME WAY it was focusing on the candle in the previous video, while the mind recalls the experience of the desired end result.

In the second example, the credit for manifesting the desire goes to the demon or the spirit. According to that logic, then we must believe that the manifestation of the desire in the first example, was made by the candle !!! This is obviously not true.

They are IDENTICAL in everything except one ritual uses a candle and the other uses a sigil. The magickal effect, the manifestation of desire, is exactly the same. Logic and common sense would then lead us to a conclusion…

What makes both spells work is : Getting in trance state by focusing the mind on an object for long period of time, when the mind is in trance state, the will is used to recall the desired end result. When the will/desire is exhausted and can’t hold the mental state or concentration anymore, the session or ritual ends.

Trance state is the secret of doing any kind magick. Not the demon, or god or goddess or whatever entity you “work with”. And this statement can be proven and tested. Over and over and over. Use trance to communicate with a fictional character, use a sigil of donald duck and you’ll get your desire manifested the same way you use a sigil of a demon or an angel. TRY IT before you argue or feel offended. There are ways of knowing what is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is false. If you read the work of Franz Bardon or Eliphas Levi, you will see how they speak about the difference between true magickal experience, and fantasies or hallucinations.

This formula of doing magick is the secret behind the symbol we call Baphomet.

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This being is a symbol of all magickal acts or spiritual work. It describes the formula or principles mentioned here in artistic symbolic way. The union of the male and female, the sun and the moon, the two spheres of mind/self, the conscious and subconscious. The desire behind the work itself. The third eye that sees the past, present and future manifestation as one single point instead of the illusion of time. To SOLVE the self in trance and COAGULA it again by focusing one thought or desire.

Idolatry is not about worshipping "another God’ or praying to a statue. It’s about forgetting the true meanings of those symbols and turning them into fake masters or imaginary Gods.

If you want to learn more about trance state and how it works and why it works, I suggest you read AND TEST those two books :

https://www.amazon.com/Way-Trance-Dennis-Wier/dp/1608606635/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1608606635&pd_rd_r=d5f54bc5-ad0e-11e8-a16e-f165ee31ead5&pd_rd_w=LZklF&pd_rd_wg=bJsuf&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=a180fdfb-b54e-4904-85ba-d852197d6c09&pf_rd_r=XKZB86YKYFKWCSQ2ASSK&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=XKZB86YKYFKWCSQ2ASSK

https://www.amazon.com/Trance-Technology-Dennis-R-Wier/dp/1888428384

Magick is science, PLEASE don’t turn it into superstitions and get us all back to stone age, like we have no clue what the subconscious mind is or how it works and there are no quantum physics that explained how everything is connected etc You’re using technology right now to read this, why not use what science has to offer in magick ?! TEST IT. TRY IT. Let reality be the judge !

Study the trance state and when you do, you’ll know that there is no difference between using Demon’s enn or chanting your own name to get in trance and make magick happen!!! Please get back to the two examples I mentioned before you start posting “I’m offended” there is no offense in science, there is only knowledge and ignorance.

And before anyone starts a cockfight about this , I AM WRONG. Everything I just said is nonsense. But for fun… TRY IT. Study those principles and test them out. Instead of wasting time and energy on useless debates, do it yourself and believe your own conclusions. Fair enough ?!

Thanks for reading, hope that helps :slight_smile:

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Well…I’m offended. Gasp.

You may certainly manifest in those manners.

You may also, for those of you who sense energy and beings, ask for assistance from those energies which belong to beings that ARE real.

I don’t consider an evolutionary journey to be a waste of my time/energy.

Yes, there is science behind energy flow, and many are learning how to access that science.

The “magic” is the energy being in motion. To insinuate that these beings are just in our imagination is frankly quite insulting.

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Trance, or “gnosis,” is considered one of the fundamental building blocks for magick within the Chaos Magick paradigm, so I agree with what the OP has written, in so far as relating to the importance of an altered state.

However, every drug addict enters into an altered state under the influence of their substance of choice, so trance is not the only requirement for magick. If it was, then every user would have their desires fulfilled.

There is also belief and intention, which, in my opinion, has been left out of this explanation for how magick works. Trance will accomplish exactly nothing unless it is fueled by a conscious intention, and belief in the possibility of that intention.

This is incorrect, however. We really don’t know what the subconscious mind is or how it works. Everything theorized about it is based on outside observation and guess work. There are many theories, but the exact mechanism of how it works is completely unknown to us. In psychology the existence of the subconscious is taken to be fact, but it’s really just a concept that was created to explain certain particularities of human behavior. There is no objective truth to it, any more than there is to the reality of spirits.That is why we can’t truly explain why affirmations work for millions of people, but also fail for millions of people.

This is also incorrect. All quantum physics postulates is that “reality” is really a soup of possibilities, rather than the solid state our mind perceives it as, and that particles that come into existence in the same instant are connected in a way not yet explainable. Occultists and New Agers love to run away with the concept of entanglement as an explanation for magick but most don’t even understand it properly. There are so many paradoxes inherent in quantum theory that have not been fully resolved even by the most prominent minds in the field that using its theories for a basis of magick is just an obvious attempt to give scientific legitimacy to nonscientific concepts and ideas because of the current primacy of scientific thought in today’s world.

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I know that what I said will be considered offensive and insulting for no reason other than it challenges what many believe is true.

Believing something to be true or false is not enough in my opinion. That’s how cults and religious groups start. “Believing” and having faith with zero evidence.

What I mentioned can be tested, if you wish to keep your beliefs then I can’t be more happy for you. My post here is for people searching for knowledge, no the ones who believe they know it all.

Kindly accept my apology…

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Well, that was a backhanded apology.

I’ve stated once that I’m not a human soul, and there are things I KNOW. If I know these things, of course I believe them.

I do not HAVE to offer up evidences for experiences just because you are unable experience for yourself. Call into question your OWN path, not that of others, and certainly not mine.

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I’m not questioning anyone’s path and didn’t ask you for evidence. If you proved what you know to yourself, then that’s the most important. Proving something to others is away of testing any theory or idea, to see and examine your theory from different angles, it’s not a challenge or a fight. It’s a validation process.

I’m not going to gain or lose anything if you change your mind or keep your beliefs. Sorry you still feel offended !

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That’s why I added those books, for more details about how Trance really works in magick. If you read those books you will find what you said mentioned and explained in detail.

No, We do know that.

Quantum physics is not the answer to all questions, I mentioned it as an example of how progress in science can provide at least a hint about what occultists and mystics know by experience for ages, was just an example.

Thank you,

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Not all metaphysical phenomena originate from the human mind.

If what you are saying is provable, then why does evocation produce results even for people that cannot achieve a trance?

I would agree that a great deal of magickal ‘technique’ is based on the interaction of the human mind and it’s reality, whether on an individual basis or as a part of the collective subconscious. Things like personal sigils, some candle magick, etc, all work on this theory.

But what about poppet spells using a sympathetic link? Science has shown that effecting particles great distances from each other will effect both. This has nothing to do with trance. While the focus of the person could be a factor in aiming sympathetic magick, their are factors involved that are purely independent of the humans involved.

Now, look at fire and water. Us ‘superstitious’ folk consider them spiritual gateways. But flame is an energetic release, vibration in one it’s rawest forms. Science has also shown that water holds memory, and reacts to human attention, another manifestation of vibration. This can be tested and proven to hold true without the human factor, so the phenomenon is at least in part autonomous from us.

As for evoking a teddy bear to effect change in the world, or a mog, or a Carebear…I agree and feel it is a product of the mind, a self induced hallucination if you will. It might be useful for personal work, but I will be damned if it is going to do much outside of the mind of the evoker. This is one of the reasons I do not recommend certain mental training routines for magickians; they produce hallucinations and sully true results. I am not interested in deceiving myself. I am interested in the exploration of phenomena that would potentially exist even if humanity did not.

What you are calling superstition might be an accurate label for some, but for guys like me, it is more a case of 'I don’t know and I am okay with it", which leaves me free from the confines of any given structure to experiment on my own. One of the problems with people who place too much value on what they consider science is the deep seeded need to quantify everything and place it in a box. In doing so, one closes their mind off to the possibility that their are things going on that humans have nothing to do with. It is poor science, IMO.

Science defines the absolute minimum of what is known about any given thing, superstition is in the other extreme, bowing in deferrence. I prefer to be somewhere in the middle, asking questions until there are no more questions to ask, like a good scientist should.

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You did a nice job here :clap::clap::clap::clap:
Kudos :+1:
I agree with you.

P.S. some ex Christians,Muslims etc etc simply change one suprestition with another and they end up doing the same…instead of one God pulling strings in their life and Universe they end up with multiple gods and spirits from all over managing and meddling their lives.
If that is suppose to be freedom than I don’t want it at all. Like changing one slave master with 1000 new ones… WTF is wrong with such humans?

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But this is what Asbjorn Torvol teaches unabashedly. His first work “Magick; it’s all in your head” explores this in a little detail.

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People are offended? Good. You’ve said something of worth. Never apologise, never explain.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking people to provide evidence for their claims. A non evidence based approach will take us back to the dark ages. If people are unwilling to support their claims with evidence, their claims can be summarily dismissed forthwith and ignored.

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This is the same guy that does not come around the forum anymore because apparently none of us fit into his narrow concept of what constitutes debate. As if his perspective on debate is the be all end all.

It kind of goes back to what I was saying about limiting yourself with self-imposed barriers being poor science.

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I never said I agreed with him. And I never said I supported his approach or attitude. Quite the opposite.

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Addendum:

What about planetary magick? This has nothing to do with humans; we just utilize the energy in a way we can interpret. It does not mean for a second that the vibrational forces of planetary magick are dependent on humanity, and it does not mean that humanity is the only being possessed of a consciousness doing anything with it.

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No, not you. Him. My critique was directed at his approach, not your post. You just happened to mention him :wink:

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Without trance there is no evocation. Evocation is a trance work. I didn’t say Trance is everything in magick. It’s part of the process of any and all kinds of magick, from shamanism, to wiccan witchcraft and ceremonial magick,. end even religious prayers.

There are many different kinds of trance. Focusing the mind without chanting or doing anything, for long period of time, is Trance. Using links in magick helps the mind to focus on the intention or the end result, to believe that this puppet is the person himself by using that link. Emotions are then used to induce the trance state.

True. The mind is not the brain. Trance helps to unite the inner and outer parts of the mind. The microcosm and macrocosm.

That’s what Trance state does, it’s not considered a hallucination in a trance state, for the subconscious mind, it’s true and it acts externally and internally as if it was real and true experience.

I didn’t provide an answer to everything. What I was trying to do is to introduce a possible explanation. That can be tested and proven to be right or wrong. The value of this information is decided by each individual. On the other hand, in my opinion, it’s not fair to label such explanation as wrong or not valid, just because it challenges what we believe or have blind faith in. I think it’s our duty to examine and test. Unless we’re looking for another religion to join and follow another book and worship another God, in this case simply saying “I know it’s true so it is” or “I know what I know and that’s enough” would be the end of it. No need for any further research or test or experimenting new theories or ideas. That’s what I mean by superstitious point of view. A blind belief without evidence. Many people would prefer not to take a specific side and focus on results, if it works then it works no matter how It works… that’s great and practical approach that I personally respect. The practical side of magick is the most important. Many people don’t know how a computer work exactly and that doesn’t stop them from using it successfully. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Well balanced point of view. Thank you

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Really? Pray tell, 'cause I have a degree in psychology and I’m pretty sure we have no idea at all as to what it is or the mechanism behind it. We simply use it as a “theory in practice” to explain the idea of traumas that may lurk under the common, surface awareness, but that may still affect outward behavior. What most people talk about when they mention the subconscious mind is based on the theories of Freud, who in turn took the word from the work of Pierre Janet where the term originated (Freud later preferred the term unconscious instead, as he thought it offered a better encapsulation of the idea of thoughts below the surface.). There is absolutely no evidence that the human mind is separated into a subconscious and a conscious. It is a useful theory, but that’s all it is.

New Agers expanded upon the concept of the subconscious mind as it is explained in psychology, and began to attribute all sorts of fanciful ideas as to what it is responsible for, turning it into some sort of conduit for a hypothesized universal connection, but that doesn’t mean we actually know anything about it.

I absolutely agree. There are many things that science cannot explain and doesn’t attempt to, like poetry and art. Science cannot explain consciousness either, although it has proven that it is connected in part to the physical brain, and thus is affected by damage. It cannot explain why it has the ability to override pain and bodily damage though, nor can it explain the observer effect or the placebo effect so it has to accept these variables and compensate for them.

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Thank you so much I really appreciate that :blush:

That was exactly my point.

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Asbjorn Torvol is not MY teacher, so…

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Great minds do think alike :pray:
There is logic in our Universe and planes beyond material existence.

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