I can’t possibly think of insulting other people’s thoughts and experiences. That’s how we all learn and progress. From each other. I only presented an idea or theory for consideration and further testing and experimentation.
The only thing that I probably feel it was too much to ask or expect, is for people test anything. I understand the power of beliefs and personal convections.
My objective is not to promote any idea as true or suggest that I know and others don’t. As yo can see I’m not selling anything I’m simply sharing thoughts that we, or some of us, can test and come to our own individual conclusions.
And there is always a possibility that I’m absolutely wrong. I’m completely ok with that
Provide your sources for this please, because I am not aware science has proven any such thing.
Again, please provide sources, because we are just going around in circles with me saying there is no such thing as the subconscious and you saying otherwise without providing any objective proof to back up your claim. Without such proof, it is just your opinion against mine.
Not according to any accepted definition I’ve read.
The scientific method is not a method of validation, it is a method of testing. In fact, it is designed to prove the working hypothesis wrong. If it fails to do so, then the hypothesis becomes a working theory, but it is never “validated” because it has to remain open to being proven wrong. The theory of evolution has held strong through a hundred years of rigorous experimentation, but it is still considered a working theory because the potential is there for something better to come along to explain what has been observed. Anything else is just bad science.
Okay. Please provide a proven methodology to measure the physical-material effect produced by the subconscious because I am not aware of any that exists.
I never disagreed with what you were attempting to prove. I disagreed with how you are claiming to prove it, and with the fact that I believe you are using terms inaccurately.
Please do, because I have yet to see anything beyond theory and opinion.
That is not how the scientific method works. The scientific method forms a hypothesis about the nature of something, and then tries to prove that hypothesis wrong. The proper methodology would be to come up with a solution, and then create an experiment to test the reverse of that hypothesis, what is known as the “null hypothesis.”
So, if you claim that the subconscious exists, in order to properly claim your hypothesis as true, you would have to create an experiment to try and prove that it doesn’t exist. The whole point of the scientific method is to set out to prove your hypothesis wrong. Otherwise, you become guilty of what is known as confirmation bias.
And this is different from the concepts of Chaos Magick how, exactly? Any experienced Chaos magician knows that the tools don’t matter. This proves nothing about the objective existence of the subconscious.
You are dealing with subjective ideas so your methodology is already flawed, because it has the confirmation bias built right into it. If you want to call it “scientific” then I will call it bad science. Doing as you say will not prove your hypothesis at all, because anyone can come up with their own hypothesis as to why they got the results they did and it would be just as valid as your idea of the subconscious mind. Why? Because it cannot be proven wrong In fact, there is an exercise in one Chaos Magick book where you do exactly that, come up with as many possible explanations for a magical effect as you can.
i agree with what you said in regards to trance being important for magick, but everything else about the subconscious mind and scientific validity is deeply flawed.
Yes he does but he also works closely with Deities. He invokes and evokes them plus talks about each one’s different energies and how they effected and changed his life.
Magick IS all in our head but that doesn’t mean there is nothing in the external world that has been here before us or exists now because we created it.
You keep contradicting yourself and insulting those who do believe in external Spirits lol. You say the Value is through each person however you once again claim people here has “blind faith”.
What are your reasoning for this, I’m curious. I see most who connect and “believe” in Spirits to do so with a good understanding of the sciences. Most are fully aware these Spirits are both inside and outside ourselves.
I agree, this would be counter productive and I try to steer people from closing themselves off like this.
I find this highly disappointing. Coming from someone who says challenging the status quo is a good thing.
How do you know people haven’t? Just because they don’t agree does Not mean they haven’t tried or tested something. Lol I’d bet most here have done basic candle Magick, because that’s what that is.
This here is what I mean about insulting.
OF COURSE THEY HAVE!
You assuming they haven’t because it is different from you is flawed and not the mind set someone trying to prove science should have. It shows you haven’t done your research on the subjects you disagree with.
I never insulted what people believe, what they believe is not my concern. But how they came to that conclusion. We insult what religious people believe in all the time, we don’t insult those people, but how - without any supporting evidence - they believe in their Gods and religions. But when the same principle is used to challenge what we believe, we consider that a personal insult and draw lines. Right ? Why the double standards ?
My idea or theory, is that that spirits exist in the trance state, we create them or “bring them to life” in that state. Outside of that state, we only receive what we suggested to our subconscious is true. If in trance the magician was focusing on a monster chasing him, he will get that as physical reality when the ritual is over. If the magician visualized a meeting with a spirit, and the spirit promised to manifest a specific desire, that’s what’s going to manifest because the subconscious accepted that event as true, with all related conclusions. And if the magician decides to skip the middle man, as E.A mentioned in one of his videos and as you can see from that candle spell in the video… then that’s what’s going to manifest directly without asking anyone for anything.
That’s ONE way to look at it, and as far as I see it explain magick and many occult knowledge in a perfect way. As I mentioned in the original post, it can be verified and tested… then each person can believe whatever he-she decides to believe.
I can’t see any insult in that ! As far as I know magick is not a closed cult with specific beliefs about how it’s done and specific explanation of how it works. If discussing different opinions is insulting then we’re talking about another organized religion here, not Magick.
Wow! I must have been in a constant trance and in my subconscious mind for almost 8 years straight, because as I reply on this, my spirits are caressing my body and leaning towards the computerscreen to see what I’m writing.
I agree with challenging but we need to do it from a place of knowledge not assumption.
And there isn’t but there is when saying people have “blind faith” without even knowing their studies, background or opinions.
There is in stating no one here wants to test anything. Again, where do you get this opinion from? 90% of what I read here is Magicians testing their own boundaries and others ideas.
There will always be those who are closed off but that isn’t everyone just because they share the Summoning of Daemons in common.
I do agree, this stuff is true but I also agree Spirits are true as well. This doesn’t make science wrong.
Ignoring the other side is bad science is what I’m saying. To get the best answer you have to delve into all angles neutrally. This also keeps people from getting “offended”.
I do agree with Dark, your methods are a bit flawed to be used as the facts.
I really can’t understand this. Ok how about… IT’S ALL TRUE AND ALL FALSE.
Everything. My opinion and everyone’s opinion. Nothing is real and nothing is not.
How about that ?
Seriously, how anyone could have any productive discussion this way ? Of course there will be an opposite opinion that suggests yours is wrong. That’s why a discussion exists. To exchange information and different points of view. You believe I’m wrong, I believe you’re wrong. but that doesn’t mean we’re insulting each other by believing different ideas and expressing this belief !!! To suggest otherwise means we’re in a cult or religion, and magick is not a cult or religion.
I never said what I’m saying is the absolute truth. It’s what I think and believe is true. And I know that many disagree with that. That’s the point of having a discussion about it. Why when I say other people’s opinions are beliefs and personal convections, it’s considered an insult. I think this is just an excuse to attack other people’s opinion. Whatever they say, no matter how they say it, as long as it’s different then it’s an insult.
I didn’t insult anyone in any way. I respect all opinions. And they are opinions and personal convictions. Just like the ideas I’m sharing. I NEVER suggested that I own truth or I wouldn’t encourage anyone who disagree to test everything and believe their own experience. What do you want more than that to understand that I respect all opinions ?!
Look… I’m not playing victim here. I knew that by starting this thread, I will be crucified for it. But I’m no Jesus
You over look the points where I show what you said that was demeaning and keep going to your theories. If you read my comments you’d know I’m not saying you’re right or wrong.
You’d also know what I am referring too, if you read my comments.
I won’t beat a dead horse.
I didn’t, I only disagree with that. I’m not going back to my theories - where in my reply I did that - I’m going back to your point. That by saying other people’s beliefs are just that, beliefs and opinions, that’s somehow an insult. And it’s not, in my view.
I already said I disagree with all that because it’s simply not true. Not what I said. I never generalize in my opinions. Some people have blind faith, and some people don’t want to test anything. Read some of the comments here, without naming names, you can see that some people just got offended and refused to think for one second about anything I said. THAT’S the blind faith I was talking about.
I can’t see how this is insulting to someone who’s not like that at all, fortunately they’re the majority of people here.
On the other hand, you assumed that I didn’t study their opinions and background knowledge… now that’s absolutely false. How you could even know that? I didn’t pick up few books about the subconscious and decided this is the ultimate truth and came here to preach the good news and take people from darkness to light
I’m only suggesting a different point of view. THAT IS ALL. And for this, everything I say and any way I say it is considered an insult or hey we already know that nothing new, or that word is not accurate, the other word is… who’s missing the point !!!
Most of the comments never discussed my points of the thread. Except the ones who already understood what I’m talking about, agree or disagree with it, but they respect my opinion and I respect their opinions. Those are like 5% of the comments. The rest were exactly what I expected… cockfighting and misdirection to change the subject ! And I have no interest in wasting my time and energy on that.
It’s like I went to church on Sunday and started to talk Satanism !
Seriously ? Chaos magick was created based on recognizing the existence of the subconscious and understanding how it works !!!
You’re trying to keep the concept within psychology or non-existence
The whole point of chaos magick is that it manipulates the subconscious. The founders of chaos magick themselves created chaos magick based on the discovery of the effects of the subconscious. Read for Austin spare and Peter Carroll.
You want me to reinvent the wheel here, prove the existence of the subconscious and how it works in magick. With all respect, that’s for you to research and study. You can start by reading the works of Spare and Carroll, I believe they’re available on Amazon.
Absolutely not true Again, please read more on Chaos magick. The manipulation you’re talking about is directed towards the subconscious mind. That’s the point of Chaos magick and why it works. Manipulation of beliefs. You create a belief and destroy another according to your will, if those beliefs serve your goal or ritual. Because that’s how the subconscious works. It acts according to people’s beliefs and convections. That’s how Sigils work in Chaos magick. Ask any Chaos Magician how a sigil works. The first word they will say is the subconscious. The fact that you mention Chaos magick proves my point perfectly
I’ve read them all, thank you, and no, they did not “discover” the effect of anything. They simply took the concept of the subconscious mind that the New Agers (and hippies, 'cause Spare was an artist) took from psychology (it is really psychology that postulated how the concept of the subconscious might work) and made into some sort of universal conduit, and used it, just like you are doing, as their explanation for how magick works. It is useful as an explanation certainly, but it is absurd to think that it somehow proves that the subconscious is real.
In fact, most Chaos Magick “explanations” are nothing but pseudoscience and pop psychology, and have zero objective truth to them, which is actually part of their point on the subjectivity of belief. CM assumes the existence of the subconscious mind, just as you do, but in no way does that mean that the subconscious really exists. It simply accepts it a priori. This is no different than what Christians do. They assume the existence of God, even though they have no evidence for His existence, and their justification for this assumption is their Holy Book, which is supposedly written by Him, essentially making him the a priori cause of his own existence.
“God exists because God exists.”
And your entire argument boils down to “the subconscious exists because the subconscious exists.”
Stop assuming the objective existence of the subconscious. Saying the subconscious is responsible is no different than saying a god or demon is responsible. You cannot prove it. You are just making an assumption based on opinion and theory and you just refuse to acknowledge the subjectivity of what you are assuming.
Prove it. Provide proof that the supposed subconscious acts according to beliefs and convictions. The thing is, you can’t, can you? No one can, because its existence is an assumption made based on subjective opinion, not an objective fact.
You are just going around in circles, claiming that the subconscious is responsible for magck, but you can’t prove the subconscious even exists, just like Christians can’t prove God exists.
Yes, because that is what their a priori cause is within their paradigm. Ask a Christian and they will answer with God. However, neither answer is an objective truth.
I’m simply sharing thoughts that we, or some of us, can test and come to our own individual conclusions.
