Great minds do think alike 
There is logic in our Universe and planes beyond material existence.
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I’m not saying saying what you are proposing is wrong, I am just saying there are flaws in the premise, so it requires deeper explanation. I think we are very much on a similar page, just expressing the concept further.
Regarding poppet spells: I truly think there is a different effect going on in the various methodologies. If one is doing a poppet spell with a wax effigee, or a photo, it can have an effect. When one does a poppet spell with the actual hair, nails, etc of the target, it can also have an effect. I just think that what causes the effect differs in the two scenarios.
That’s why I mentioned the scientists effecting particles at great distance. In the case where the magickian is using a simple photo or doll, I would agree with you that the effect is generated entirely from the mind. But the other scenario requires more exploration.
And yes, I agree with you 100% that there is a massive number of occultists who substitute religious practice for magickal practice. This is pretty apparent, especially here on the forum. Faith has little place in science, IMO.
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This^^^. IMO, this is one of the single greatest impediments to advancing our understanding of occult phenomenon.
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And yet it’s taught by quite a few right hand path schools like BOTA, AMORC and has filtered through onto popular Youtube occultism eg Frater Xavier
Paul Foster Case’s introductory “Practical Occultism” papers for the BOTA curriculum could have been written by the OP.
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Mainstream psychology done a lot of damage to the concept of the subconscious. I personally believe that this was intentional action to blind people and create misdirection, taking their attention away from what this concept is really about.
Instead of studying that concept according to deeper understanding, like hermitic philosophy - the kybalion probably the best resource for that - they try to suggest that it’s pure psychology and its all in one’s head. But to be honest, not all of them fall into that trap. Few of them understand that the subconscious is not just an organ in the human body, the whole universe is mind and works in a subconscious state. Magick unites the conscious, the individual subconscious and the all or the universal subconscious. In my opinion This is what I think occult is all about.
The subconscious is a lot more than visualization and affirmations or the law of attraction.
Generally speaking, there’s a lot of talk about magic and science, yet the “scientific” part is not present in the discussion, other than from the generic scientific theory with no experience to confirm it. Not even on a personal, perceptive level.
Physics is science, as well as energies. Has anyone in here explained it from the personal experience point of view? This is something I shared a long time ago:
There’s more posts about this, and I wish more could share something like this.
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This is science and magick …
No gods or angels or demons… just a candle to focus your mind until you get in trance state. Unless someone could believe that the candle itself is responsible of manifesting anything, then this is a clear example of how the mind is used in magick
And this is a scientific concept. “Scientific” simply means that it can be tested and proven to be correct by repetition. Science is a way of thinking and validation of any concept or idea according to the information available to us at any given time.
I introduced two identical methods of doing magick and suggested a logical conclusion/explanation that can be tested and validated or rejected based on results, not opinions or beliefs.
In my opinion, the main problem is that most people are willing to believe in, and have faith in external powers easily. A god, a goddess, a demon or an angel, the universe… anything or anyone except themselves. No matter what’s wrong or right, or what’s true or false.
The same exact mentality that produced organized religions and spiritual cults that worship a master guru who convince them that he or she has the special VIP connection or relationship with a source of power…then usually it all ends with a disaster, while believing that they’re making the world a better place !
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…yet it lacks scientific explanation and an actual understanding of “how” and “why” the result manifested. If you lack any perception of energies and how it manifest, you couldn’t explain it even on a personal level, can you?
There was nothing about how spirits operate to influence attraction, or the energies we’re sending out in the astral plane, or how the “seed of attraction” is planted on the target.
The video is a demonstration of how to use candle magic, not of how it works “behind the scenes” or of WHY it works and why it DOESN’T WORK every single time. As a demonstration, though, he nailed it as he often do.
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What’s the source of the magickal effect in this spell ? The candle ? 
Well, maybe… then let’s replace the candle with anything else. TEST it for yourself. I’m not telling you what to believe. That’s up to you. You decide that. But at least be fair to yourself and test things out… just to KNOW something new if there is any.
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Can you elaborate on that, or are you belittling me because I don’t agree with you?
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It is pure psychology. That is where the entire concept of the subconscious originated. All the New Agers did was make an erroneous assumption that the “mind” spoken of in metaphysical writings like the Kybalion is the subconscious but it is not. It is consciousness itself.
No. The subconscious is a subjective concept created in psychology as a way to explain behavior in someone who supposedly had no conscious explanation for that behavior. The idea didn’t even exist until postulated by Janet and Freud, therefor the Kybalion is certainly not referring to it but to the entirety of consciousness.
The “universe” has no need for a subconscious as that would imply that there is a part of the universal mind that is hidden from the rest of the universal mind and that makes no sense whatsoever. The “universe” cannot be omniscient if that were the case.
There is no subconscious. It is all just consciousness.
In the occult, and religion, we have a tendency to throw around subjective terms like “subconscious,” “soul” and “energy” as if they are facts or objective truths, and they are neither, for their objective existence cannot be proven or measured in any way. Ask someone who claims they are the incarnation of some god to perform an observable and measurable feat like flying through the air and they will fail. Ask someone to prove they have a soul, or a subconscious mind, and they will also fail.
Absolutely wrong. What you are describing is the scientific method, not science itself. They are NOT the same thing. Using the scientific method does not make what you are doing scientific at all, and it is a grave mistake to make that assumption .
What you are talking about is what is popularly known as pseudoscience, that is, trying to use the scientific method to validate something that is not, by its very nature, scientific.
The definition of science is “the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.”
You cannot propose a scientific explanation for magick, while at the same time throw around concepts like the subconscious mind, because that concept is not a part of science. Psychology may use the scientific method but it is not considered truly scientific, and has only escaped the realm of pseudoscience within the last 30 years or so.
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I would never do that. I’m learning myself everyday and I’m always happy when I’m wrong.
In the two spells I mentioned as examples, the focus was on a candle in one spell, while in the other spell the point of focus was demon’s sigil. The point of this is to get in TGS state. Additionally, we an also use chants while focusing visually on an object.
The relaxation gets the mind in theta brainwave, while concentration on the desire by visualizing it as if it’s happening now, and imagining the feeling of that, generates gamma brainwaves. That’s what makes magick work. The combination of theta and gamma brainwaves. That’s pure mental process. the candle, the sigil, the enn or chant are tools used to get in Trance.
How do we know that? By scientific logical test. Replace the candle with anything and chant any word or two words. I use a cigarette instead of a candle when I’m out and need a quick spell, and chant my name backwards !!! Works almost every time.
If you believe anything, any object or spirit or any element of ritual is responsible of the magickal effect… replace it with anything else and see what happens. As long as you keep use the same mechanism of using your will, recalling your intention by focused imagination, and relaxing the mind and body to get in trance… you will always get results.
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I disagree. And I can prove my point.
The fact that the awareness of the subconscious started by the study of psychology, doesn’t mean that it exclusively belongs to psychology. Catchup was originally invented as a medicine
The subconscious - as the name itself clearly suggests - is sub consciousness. The link between the inner and outer aspects of consciousness. This is symbolically mentioned in all religions and all spiritual paths all around the world.
The subconscious is not the organ in the human brain. It’s a state of mind. A state of consciousness. It’s the hidden awareness in all that exists. Science already proved that behind the physical mask, there is hidden awareness in matter…that’s the subconscious/spiritual aspect of the universe. It’s universal as well as individual.
Yes there is. There are different levels or layers of consciousness. It’s not one dimensional awareness.
Yes it can. By it’s physical-material effect. If it doesn’t have one then it’s not objective truth. It’s fantasy. The inner and outer aspects of reality are connected. Not separated.
Nope, I disagree. The difference you’re talking about is between science and scientific. Science is one thing, it’s away of collecting information. It changes all the time. The scientific doesn’t change… it’s a method of validation. That’s what I’m talking about.
If we use the scientific method to find a solution to a problem then this solution is a scientific solution. If science can’t prove it yet… then we gather the most probable idea of explaining it and it remains a theory until science can find enough information to support it, or further scientific analysis prove it to be wrong.
Instead of debating about all that… did you try to test my absolutely wrong explanation?
A candle and two words about your intention. A sigil and demon’s enn. A picture of a saint or cartoon character and any two random words… use each for a different simple goal and see what happens.
How about that? Whatever you believe is the source of the magickal effect, replace it with something else. And do a spell.
If you get the same results from demon’s sigil and a candle and a picture of Donald duck, then I guess it’s fair and reasonable to understand that the magickal effect got nothing to do with any of those items or tools or characters. Correct ?
Thank you
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Another thing to keep in mind, there is a difference between science and mainstream science. We know about science what we need to know. This is not conspiracy, this is proven by the release of classified documents from governments all around the world. And people’s experimentations and shared results. Many of those people ended up dead or in jail or silenced after sharing what they know.
We are at least 50 to 70 years behind what science knows.
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@succupedia you raise an extremely good point.
I propose a thread solely for propositions as to why a magickal effect is happening. A musings thread, if you will, but using accepted knowledge as a premise to explain the phenomena we work with. The better examples the better. Doing this might point people in some more definitive directions.
I’m going to start it off with my theory regarding planetary energy and vibration tonight.
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Great idea ! That would be wonderful opportunity for everyone 
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I am a massive advocate for quantum physics in occult practice… they very parallel and yes I think majority of what you said is correct. At work so cannot write a long drawn out post here. But the donald duck theory is a means of trance, entities are real and rather then doing the work yourself, one can in fact summon a spirit to do the work FOR YOU. However this is why I always said stop relying on entities to create your world for you, that is NOT acsent whatsoever. Learning to use your MIND to manifest change is of greater reward… so in a small simple statement I say, yes the true magick is in the mind, but a spirit that knows the laws as well can do it for you just as another magician can do the work for you
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You speak as if we don’t know this lol 
Knowing where it comes from is key, I agree but as long as the Magician remembers this, using Spirits isn’t an issue. It’s something to push out for the manifestation and something to focus the mind on while working.
There are some threads here on
Quantum physics BTW 
I’ve spoken more than once about Technomancers as well.
I do agree though, too many draw a line with technology, science and the Occult.
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Thank you that’s one of the main reasons why I thought about sharing my thoughts about mind and magick… the main focus is always getting spirits to do the work. While this is not a bad thing in itself, when it’s the only thing people do, it blocks their progress as magicians and delays their realization of their own spiritual-mental powers and skills.
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So you are trying to be insulting, gotcha.
Seriously though. If you wanted to make a statement about your reality using science that’s fine but you failed at one thing, science is neutral and does not try to insult others thoughts or experiences.
I love science, but I understand there is no line in the sand.
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