Gods, demons, and morality

[Whitehowlite]

You’re not wrong. But, that depends entirely on your interpretation and ideology. I come from a Buddhist standpoint more than a Thelemic one when it comes to karma so to say.

there are those who accept that ‘karma’ implies ‘action’ and that the association of originating force or action is the beginning of the presumption surrounding the ‘self’. this desire/self is the basis for suffering (dukkha) and an important element of the principle of no-self (anatman/anatta), central to the Dharma, or
instruction associated with Gautama Buddha.

the association of karma with some sort of ‘cosmic justice’ or ‘law of cause and effect’ is particular, not universal. the West, which has
a fixation on the moral where religious is concerned, seizes on this notion and reconsiders it.

The Pali term Kamma literally means action or doing. Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, physical is regarded as kamma. It covers all that is included in the phrase; “thought, word and deed”.

[Faith819]

I read this thread started yesterday, is a bit deep English for me, I afraid I get it wrong with my level of understanding in English, is it mean I grow up at christian religion teaching (I just fully left my church life few months ago, and stop to be christian and i decided I will follow Lucifer only for the rest of my life), I always afraid to hurt people, I not dare to do any criminals stuff, and I will easy feel guilty and upset if I curse any people or do any wrong things, Is it meaning I am the light person? And is this mean if I want work with any demon, even my lord Lucifer will refused me? Sorry, correct me if I am really wrong, because I am easy misunderstanding with not my first language

[StewardofSophia]

But were not playing a video game, this is real life. In Buddhist beliefs, it’s very possible to become a deva (god), but even devas are subject to karma. And they will die after countless eons have passed. All things are impermanent, and karma isn’t a judgment you can waive. There’s no secret karma police on the astral writing down what you’re doing. Every intentional action produces karma. If you cast a curse to kill someone, you produce the karma of murder. Mostly, people who are trapped in their ignorance just go between the world of men and the world of animals. Particularly egregious individuals may end up as hungry ghosts. But the worst are sent to one of the Narakas, Buddhist hells. The shortest Naraka is the duration of how long it would take to empty a barrel full of sesame seeds if every one hundred years, you took one out.

But Gautama Buddha taught that we should test out his teachings. If you can look at your life and honestly state that you don’t see the work of karma in your life, good or bad, then don’t believe it. You’re the ultimate arbitrator of what you believe to be true.

[Aquaguy]

Lucifer is actually more light than dark in my opinion and from what i have heard from others. Yes you can be “light” and still work with demons of the goetia. You have a nice energy about you, i am sure they would have no problem working with you.

[krass]

@StewardofSophia @Whitehowlite I’m loving the discussion so far. So the way I see it, karma can be one of two things:

1- Simple cause and effect. If this was the case, then in theory there would be a way to avoid karma for the long term. Like if you throw a stone in the air it will come back down because the karma of gravity. But what if you throw it so hard that it launches into orbit? In effect the stone is “falling down” indefinitely, just as the moon is indefinitely “falling towards the earth” but never actually reaching the ground. Is there then a way to launch into orbit as far as karma is concerned?

2- Karma is a result of being cursed by sentient beings. Maybe this is the reason the Buddha said to always be compassionate to sentient beings. And maybe the higher the awareness of the being, the more potent the curse. So even if millions of livestock are slaughtered every day for meat, their collective curses aren’t strong enough to have any real affect. But if you sleep with someone’s spouse whose more spiritually developed you get cursed and it manifests immediately and lasts several incarnations.

I’m just throwing things out there to bounce off of you guys

[Whitehowlite]

We’ll talk about rebirth for a sec.
rebirth which Buddhists do not regard as a mere theory but as a verifiable fact by evidence, forms a fundamental tenet of Buddhism, though its goal of Nibbāna is attainable in this life itself. The Bodhisatta Ideal and the correlative doctrine of freedom to attain utter perfection are based on the doctrine of rebirth.

Documents record that this belief in rebirth, viewed as a transmigration or reincarnation, was accepted by philosophers such as Pythag, Plato and poets like Tennyson, Shelly and Words-Worth.

The Buddhist doctrine of rebirth should be differentiated from the theory of transmigration and reincarnation of other systems, because Buddhism denies the existence of a trans migrating permanent soul, created by God, or emanating from a Parāmata (divine essence).

It is Kamma that conditions rebirth. Past kamma conditions the present; and present in combination with past produces future conditions. The present is the offspring of the past and becomes, in turn, the parent of the future.

One school a while ago had the postulation of the ultimate origin of life.

In attempting to solve the problem, postulates a first cause, whether as a cosmic force or as an Almighty being. Another school denies a first cause for, in common experience, the cause ever becomes the effect and the effect becomes the cause. In a circle of cause and effect a a first cause is inconceivable. In the opinion of some the conception of a first is as ridiculous as a round triangle.

[Faith819]

Thank you is really good to know this, was just concerned I will be refused and not suitable at here, your reply means a lot, thanks : )

[Aquaguy]

No problem. Good luck and much love

[krass]

Interesting. What is the Buddhist perspective of Atonement then, if any? How would a person like Hitler who killed millions of innocent people atone for his karma? Even if he did regret his actions, what’s done is done and the dead cannot be brought back to experience the life they didn’t get to live because of his actions.

And even if we sentenced Hitler to death and say that he deserved his just punishment, he only suffered one death while causing millions of deaths. The muslims and christians solved this by creating an afterlife where he would be punished in an environment where death is not possible and time is non existent, creating immense suffering for the criminal.

[Whitehowlite]

Killing means intentional destruction of living beings. The Pali term pāna strictly means the psycho-physical life ptertaining to one’s particular existence. The wanton destruction of this life force, without allowing it to run its due course, is pānātipāta. Pāna means that which breathes. Hence all animate beings including animals, are regarded as pana, but not plants as they possess no mind.

There are ten evil actions caused by deed, word and mind which produce negative karma. Killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, slandering, harsh speech, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and false view.

The gravity of the evil depends on the goodness and the magnitude of the being concerned. The killing of a virtuous person or a big animal is regarded as more heinous than the killing of a vicious person or a small animal because a greater effort is needed to commit the evil and the loss involved is considerably great.

The evil effects of killing are: brevity of life, ill-health, constant grief due to the separation from the loved, constant future.

Even the most wicked person should not be discouraged or despised on account of his evil nature. He should be pitied, for those who censure him may also have been in that same position at a certain stage. As they have changed for the better he may also change, perhaps sooner than they? Who knows what is in store for this wicked person? Who knows his potential goodness?

Angulimāla, a highway robber and the murderer of more than a thousand of his bretheren became an Arahant and erased, so to speak, all his past misdeeds.

Ālavaka, the fierce demon who feasted on the flesh of human beings, gave up his carnivorous habits and attained the first stage of Sainthood.

Ambāpali, a courtesan, purified her character and attained Arahantship.

Asoka, who was stigmatised Canda (wicked), owing to his ruthlessness in expanding his Empire, because Dharmāsoka, or Asoka the Righteous, and chanted his career to such an extent to that today—“Admist the tens of thousands of names of monarchs that crowd the columns of history, their majesties and graciousness, serenities and royal highnesses and the like the name of Asoka shines, and shines almost alone, a star”.

These are a few striking examples which serve to show how a complete reformation of character can be the effect of sheer determination.

[krass]

I’ve read the story of Ambapali before. And Asoka’s story is well known. Beautiful as it is, doesn’t it give us a loophole to sin as much as we want if as long as we repent later in life? What of people who never sinned and yet also never achieved enlightenment/arahantship? Could it be that the “dark” phases of their lives were actually a part of their ascent to godhood?

[Whitehowlite]

You’re exactly right, as a matter of fact, without the dark phase there wouldn’t of been such ascent. I don’t see kamma as really having loopholes, and the person’s existence is purely circumstance based upon past and present transgressions.

There is a balance to everything so nothing purportedly can contrast amount of evil or good done, the results come about in some shape or form, now or later and usually uninvited. I found it hard to contrast the essential notions of kamma originally until discovering other realms that ripen even in formless states, to have an effect of what is thought, said and done of a person.

You can’t prevent wrongdoing and misdeeds, we’re humans at the end of the day and we all make mistakes no matter how sound our judgement seems at the times.

[krass]

Thank you for your insights. I’m still not 100% clear about the concepts of karma but I think I got a lot from this discussion. I’m being pursued by married women now and something just doesn’t feel right about going for it and just enjoying them.

Which is strange because I have no qualms about throwing a curse on someone for inconveniencing me, although probably not to the death. I guess I’m just a softie and I need to toughen up a bit to be in the LHP. Or maybe I like to avoid messy situations and keep things simple in life. I’m not sure anymore. Thanks again.

[Purple]