Evocation, disrespectful?


#1

At the moment I´m reading S Connolly´s The Daemonolater’s Guide to Daemonic Magick, and in the beginning she said she doesn’t like (or don’t practice) evocation because she thought it was disrespectful to evoke a daemon/entity with threats and commands.

What do you think, is it disrespectful?

P.S I might have got it wrong.


#2

You dont need to evoke and threat the entity or “command” it…
How are you going to command something that is greater than you? How much power do you have?


#3

My understanding is that the context from which she was writing there was only judeo-christian grimoire style evocation, which is disrespectful contrasting with demonolatry workings which are not. I would still consider many of her style of workings to be classified as evocation based on my definition of the terms.

To be honest I don’t see much difference between EA’s style and hers apart from some syntax (there are differences but its very compatible)


#4

I’m currently reading The Complete guide to Daemonaltary, so far from what I’ve read it is by far the most lenient spirit based magick I’ve come across. Even with their use of sigil magick where normally one would draw a circle around the spirit to bind it, one is cautioned not to do this from the Daemonaltry paradigm. The circle is drawn as a symbolism of the demon as part of the whole/satan/cosmos. Daemonaltry seems to prefer invocations s opposed to evocation and one never commands a spirit, if a spirit doesn’t wish to work with you simply find a more willing spirit.

As Soundwave stated the differences between her system and E.A.'s don’t seem to be huge as E.A. Views the demons as allies of ascent where Connolly worships/venerates the daemon.

I haven’t gotten to Daemonaltary Magick yet but I find it confusing she would say that evocation is disrespectful when they have their own version of Goetia practice along with other forms of theophany. It’s likely due to as was elaborated above the Judeo-Christian practice of binding, threatening and commanding a demon into obeidience.


#5

Connolly seems to share the same ideals as i do. . and i didnt really met much of her before coming in here :wink:


#6

I think S Connolly is disrespectful to my intelligence and her own humanity. Yes, Sunas, you too are a perfect example of the results of demon-worship.


#7

She performs demonolatry.

Demonolatry is demon worship.

Worship is an act of subservience.

Therefore, naturally she’d find it disrespectful to summon or command any being she considers higher than herself.

While we respect her as an occultist - simply because she actually DOES perform magick, and isn’t just an armchair intellectual - we think she’s totally wrong in that regard.

At Become A Living God, we teach that demons and spirits are resources for the magician to utilize for their own magick ascent, therefore, placing magicians at the top of the hierarchy of magick power - at the top of the food chain.

Correct. You don’t need to “threaten” an entity that you evoke, just because it’s rude.

But you certainly can command it. And it will respond and comply.

To me, this is hard proof that magicians are superior to spirits.

Nothing is greater than a magician, so your question is flawed.

Unlimited. And certainly enough to summon a demon and receive its cooperation.


#8

My point of view is different about this at the moment, maybe it can change, there are many stuff to be seem. But to me i am able to command the forces of demons, channel them and use them for my stuff(the body as a vessel for power), not command THE DEMON, but use it powers and learn with them.
I dont think we are small beings compared with them, but the more powerful you are, the more you will be able to do.
Yea, we have many potential and the power we can have are cool, but i dont see every magician doing crazy things around like a god. There is evolution and learning of how to work with forces and get them for you.
But, yes…i think there are some magicians that are so powerful, they can really deal with Demons.


#9

A useless distinction.

A demon is force itself.

You still operate under the old paradigm where a demon is a “person”.

(I suspect this is why people feel uncomfortable with the idea of commanding and using it)

A demon/angel/god is merely a simulation of power that we direct into kinetic activity.

It only appears as a human because you yourself are a human. If it showed up as a vacuum cleaner, I doubt you’d feel shame mastering it.

You can’t NOT command it.


#10

Timothy if an entity is simulation of power that we direct how does one explain backlash that can occur from not handling or working with it correctly? I have a theory of my own but I’d like to hear your thoughts.


#11

How does one explain the backlash or negative consequences of mishandling a knife, or sophisticated piece of computer software?


#12

[quote=“Timothy, post:9, topic:1396”]A demon/angel/god is merely a simulation of power that we direct into kinetic activity.

It only appears as a human because you yourself are a human. If it showed up as a vacuum cleaner, I doubt you’d feel shame mastering it.

You can’t NOT command it.[/quote]

Are you saying that if I evoke Azazel and say “I command you to do everything I want for the remainder of my existence so that I am completely pleased” he’s going to do it? Interesting.

And in what state of mind does the magician have to be to command power? If the power is overwhelming, he won’t be able to. I think the state would be that of deserving the power and it’s submission. Are your experiences saying otherwise?


#13

A useless distinction.

A demon is force itself.

You still operate under the old paradigm where a demon is a “person”.

(I suspect this is why people feel uncomfortable with the idea of commanding and using it)

A demon/angel/god is merely a simulation of power that we direct into kinetic activity.

It only appears as a human because you yourself are a human. If it showed up as a vacuum cleaner, I doubt you’d feel shame mastering it.

You can’t NOT command it.[/quote]

I am far from thinking that demons are people. Demons definitly arent people.

As i said, my point of view is that i can channel the powers of demons to this world to have them aid me on my goals and stuff. Not really COMMAND the Demon it self. That my body is a vessel for power.
I also think, the far i go, the more power i will get. Really GET, not only channeling.
That means i see them as entities, not only raw power. In my opinion, if some dabbler go to the forest and start conjuring elementals, he may get screwed. The same with Demons, Spirits and even the Goetia. And that crazy graveyard stuff that i see many dabblers in Brazil messing with.

That is it.


#14

No. Can you turn on a piece of computer software and command it to do anything you want?

Spirits are limited to their unique powers, like a computer program does only what its designed to execute.

Similar to a video game, you’ll access deeper stages of its power according to your skill level.

Correct. You can’t command the “demon itself” because there is no “demon itself”.

There is only the power itself, that we summon into a simulated human form for interactive purposes.

This is where we differ.

There is no entity.

There is only power, that we temporarily render into a human form for the sake of conversation. (I’ve now said this 3 times)

I like you Divinator, but I disagree entirely. :slight_smile:

You’re comparing a beginner dabbling in magick - to a child playing with a loaded gun that has the safety off.

That’s a false analogy.

A magician needs certain skills to unlock the full powers of evocation and magick to the degree that it’d be dangerous. And in order to attain those powers, they’d need a definitive level of intelligence. Thus ensuring only the smartest among us become the most powerful magicians.

Think of the “Excalibur” legend. Only the worthy could pull the sword from the stone and be king.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

Incidentally, this is why I’m against people trying to keep magick a secret from everyone else.

Why bother? Only the worthy can wield it anyway.

Magick is self-regulating.


#15

I respect your point of view, Timothy.


#16

"Incidentally, this is why I’m against people trying to keep magick a secret from everyone else.

Why bother? Only the worthy can wield it anyway.

Magick is self-regulating."

I have had some mixed feelings about the BALG view of demons and where the Magickan stands within the hierarchy. Though I think it’s how it comes off. This quote I like and pretty much agree with. I also know in my experience, demonic worship and venerating certain forces is not an over all approach that can work for everyone. Not everyone will get healthy results. There is a needed balance for sure.


#17

Become A Living God is beautiful because it’s NOT a magick order.

There are no explicit politics, or required school of thought.

You don’t need to obey me or E.A., or agree with the way we think EVER.

In fact, E.A.'s often told me how he thoroughly enjoys reading alternate views on our forum.

You are free to think and perform magick however you like, and you’ll always be welcome, for the most part. :slight_smile:

P.S. If anyone ever disagrees, or takes issue with something we state, I’m more than happy to debate a point. I honestly have no egotistical attachment to my theories and stances. I align myself with whatever is most logical and empirical.

Furthermore, if you ever see someone trashing or bashing Become A Living God because of our positions, invite them to speak their piece at our forum. E.A. and I are willing to discuss whatever it is.

And remember, E.A. has s standing agreement to debate absolutely anyone in an interview format.


#18

A useless distinction.

A demon is force itself.

You still operate under the old paradigm where a demon is a “person”.

(I suspect this is why people feel uncomfortable with the idea of commanding and using it)

A demon/angel/god is merely a simulation of power that we direct into kinetic activity.

It only appears as a human because you yourself are a human. If it showed up as a vacuum cleaner, I doubt you’d feel shame mastering it.

You can’t NOT command it.[/quote]

One time I met a being that appeared to be a talking vacuum cleaner in the astral.

A magician needs certain skills to unlock the full powers of evocation and magick to the degree that it'd be dangerous. And in order to attain those powers, they'd need a definitive level of intelligence. Thus ensuring only the smartest among us become the most powerful magicians.

I don’t know, I know of some dumb people who have gotten themselves into trouble, both online and offline. So I’m not sure if this is as self regulating as that would imply. Though one way things are self regulating in my expereience is with occult darwinism. I notice that idiots have a tendency to get weeded out by shooting themselve in the face with this stuff. If they survive they are smarter from the experience and if they don’t thats one less person screwing up. I mean I’ve tried to help alot of these people, but their so intent on being wrong headed, I think the universe is telling me I should just focus on trying to help those who aren’t complete fools.

But I do agree that the magician has the power to command these forces.


#19

Eh, I’d need a lot more than a casual anecdotal claim to convince me otherwise.

It’s logical that a magician will get results equivalent to his level of skill and power.

A magus will get magus results.

A dabbler will get dabbler results.

The force of will necessary to drive the results of a highly advanced ritual to physical materialization is LIGHTYEARS beyond the capability of a careless untrained idiot.

Just the magickal intelligence alone that’s required for organizing and orchestrating even a basic necromantic ritual is astounding.

As we’ll emphasize in Mastering Evocation, it’s not the tools or grimoires that matter. It’s the magician’s ability to control and manipulate their own magick-emotional states, to undergo the Transfiguration of Consciousness, that matters.


#20

Lol!