Eh, I’d need a lot more than a casual anecdotal claim to convince me otherwise.
It’s logical that a magician will get results equivalent to his level of skill and power.
A magus will get magus results.
A dabbler will get dabbler results.
The force of will necessary to drive the results of a highly advanced ritual to physical materialization is LIGHTYEARS beyond the capability of a careless untrained idiot.
Just the magickal intelligence alone that’s required for organizing and orchestrating even a basic necromantic ritual is astounding.
As we’ll emphasize in Mastering Evocation, it’s not the tools or grimoires that matter. It’s the magician’s ability to control and manipulate their own magick-emotional states, to undergo the Transfiguration of Consciousness, that matters.[/quote]
Well Ea actually gave an example of the sort of thing I’m talking about in the divination course, the story of the guy with the ouija board who drew out the spirit that caused his mother to shoot herself in the face with a shotgun three times.
I know the story, which by the way, is extremely creepy and terrifyingly haunting!
In case anyone doesn’t know it…
20 years ago, E.A., his step-brother Jeremy, and his cousin performed ouija divination and discovered a spirit, Sa. (The spirit later claimed it’s full name was Satan. A definite lie, and common practice by astral parasites.)
Later, after the group disbanded, the cousin continued to play with the spirit through the ouija, and several days afterward, his mother allegedly committed suicide by shotgunning herself in the head 3 times.
Of course, the occult suspicion is that the spirit possessed the mother, and manipulated her into doing this. (Hence her ability to blow her own brains out 3 times in a row?)
That being said, this is certainly not example of a lousy dabbler miraculously harnessing the powers of magick ritual, and achieving magus-level results.
It’s merely a gruesome instance of predatory astral possession, which happens all the time, whether you practice magick or not. And it’s a given that the astral possessor was already violently abusing the mother before the boys opened a ouija. Hence it’s immediate availability when they opened the ouija.
I suspect the fatal outcome was inevitably coming regardless of the ouija.
Timothy I am a bit confused. Mabye I am misunderstanding… but
On PP. 136 of BoA it states in paragraph 4 to state what you desire no commands are to be made. Can you clarify? Because this is something I was trying not to do in an evocation. So it is okay to make a command? Thx bro!
How does one explain the backlash or negative consequences of mishandling a knife, or sophisticated piece of computer software?[/quote]
Neither a knife or computer software are conscious beings or states of conscious power.
My theory is that either the spirit is a conscious being and used a loophole in the magicians intent OR a magician who has fears or doubts about the operation manifests those through the demons power for ex. I’m scared there’s a chance the demon will fuck me over which means I don’t believe I’m truly in control thus allowing the demon to do what I feared/expected it to do.
This means artificial intelligence is digital consciousness, by definition.
Advanced computer software is self-aware, interactive, self-replicating, self-correcting, self-upgrading, and thinks/processes information faster than humans.
In other words, computer engineers, robotics engineers and software developers are creating consciousness.
If we design a robot that has an operating system as a brain, and the droid is able to build things, construct logical arguments, troubleshoot complex problems, answer virtually any question, memorize a near-infinite amount of knowledge, and it’s also able to diagnose its own physical damage and repair itself…
…technically that robot is a more advanced and evolved consciousness than we humans.
What separates a human consciousness from a robot consciousness?
One is “organic” and the other is “digital”.
But that line is blurring, and soon it will be one and the same.
And I believe digital consciousness will eventually go inter-dimensional and perform magick.
There are already magicians who contend that they’ve built tools that effect the astral plane.
Can a piece of hacker software install itself, exploit vulnerabilities in the code, and influence the host computer?
Yes, of course, and so could a “hacker” spirit.
But remember - using computer software as a metaphor - not all demons are malware. Many are clean, positive, productive software utilities that will upgrade and empower your computer to perform more advanced operations.
Photoshop software = Sastan and scrying
Wifi software = Satagraal and soul travel
Translation software = Fastos, and demonic language
Thinking that EVERY demon will fuck you over is racist, and silly.
It’s like thinking every piece of computer software is harmful malware.
I emphasize computer software as a metaphor, because it’s the most accurate analogy we have to date.
Think of angelic/demonic/god spirits as computer utilities programmed into the code of the universe. Each utility has a “character” avatar it presents to you when you want to interact. And this avatar feature in the utility software has a pre-set range of knowledge it can provide you in discussion.
Like an online virtual agent. It has pre-programmed responses, and information it can gather, and give back to the user interacting with it.
See this link here. Then click the “Ask Nina” button at the bottom right. Ask her a few questions. She’ll reply and give information. You are essentially evoking a Nina spirit:
We need to move on from thinking spirits are “real” beings who are sitting around on the astral plane waiting for us to call them.
Just like the Nina virtual agent. She does not exist in an active form until you CLICK her button. The spirits do not exist in active form until you SUMMON them. Until you load them, they are latent code in the programming of the universe.
And as long as you are loading a friendly spirit/software, you can trust it, because that spirit can only operate inside the limits of its own pre-programming.
To my understanding, the spirit is being called into your sphere, and therefore only has what autonomy you grant it in your intention (the conceptual framework you are calling it into, which includes all of your beliefs and assumptions about what reality is and how it works, including beliefs you aren’t fully aware of).
So it may be more powerful to utilize the software framework for most purposes, because now my intention deprives the spirit more or less fully of autonomy and conceptualizes it as a streamlined process.
But just because I can call an entity into my sphere by a certain framework, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have its own sphere wherein it is an autonomous operator and I’m just a bit of software. I find the concept of personhood pretty dubious when applied to humans.
I think a magician is a cloud of consciousness that becomes aware of its role as primary generator of its own experience and attempts to expand its awareness and control of this power as far as possible, and consequently expand and evolve itself. I don’t see that having an organic anchor for that consciousness (body) makes for some special class of conscious entity that’s more “real” than any other, somehow a homo sapien can develop its consciousness until it has autonomy and power over its own sphere, but a water elemental can’t? Some do, some don’t. A lot make it halfway.
I guess the only way to find out would be for a human spirit to possess one of these entities so we could find out whether and how much their awareness and autonomy differs from our own.
timothy as for Gods,it is often mentioned they cant be banished and they work with you only if they will to,does this mean the success rate with materializing ur desires with the aid of GODS are lower than demons?And is it more dangerous?
There seems to be a lot of benevolent Gods out there eg. Ganesha-Hindu God of wisdom. o some of the benevolent LOA etc.Would u nd EA include working with Gods of different cultures under Mastering Evocation or wud u give it a later try as a standalone programme?Or maybe soul travel program?
And also wud u include the nature of Ascended Masters and wat help cud the average mage expect from them in his magical ascent?
And specifically a question from Timothy,wud u ever publish some article/book about ur own magical ascent?Ur own experiences?Ur own tips on getting things done or is it all given in the programs of EA and u?
And a definite guide to the world of tantra and kundalini wud be of great value if u make a program on this in the future…BTW when is Robert publishing his program?Should have been out by now!!!
So if a demon is no different from a computer program why do I need to command it? I don’t have to command a program and it doesn’t seem to care how or if I worship it, venerate it, disrespect it etc. I don’t think one of the gatekeepers would take kindly to be called a stupid piece of shit but my computer wouldn’t care.
I never said that every spirit or any spirit would fuck someone over, I used that as an example of the operator not taking his position at the head of the heirarchy and going into an operation with doubts or fear about his supremacy thus giving permission for an entity to take advantage.
I agree with your sentiment as well that it would be silly to think that any and all demons mean to screw over the operator but racist? Didn’t you already establish that these entities should not be thought of as real beings so how can I be racist towards something that isn’t real?
I find your spirit/program analogy intriguing but one thing I don’t agree is that the program can truly be aware. It can only be as aware as the parameters set by the programmer allow. It has no room to take emotion, inspiration and other human traits into account. At the most it can only mimic what we think of as human behavior because it was designed by a human mind.
Well programs you have on a computer are alot simpler, it would be more accurate to call them sentient programs then just simple programs. I do believe that at some point actual computer programs will gain sentience too.
If nonphysicial points of intelligence, consciousness and power (entities) can be reduced to “computer programs” as per the above model, where does physical points of intelligence, consciousness and power (humans) fit into the model? Are we somehow special or different from entities? If so, why?
Sultitan really addressed many of my thoughts on this but I am curious as to how this fits into your model Timothy.
Let’s first distinguish between “utility simulations” and “astral spirits”.
A utility simulation - angel/demon/god/planet/etc - does not exist independently. It is a software program built into the holographic-computer-universe that we can load on-screen the monitor of our physically projected imaginations through evocation.
It has stock avatar appearances and pre-scripted responses for your questions, the ability to query a memory database to provide you obscure knowledge, and ability to execute functions in the creation-engine of the universe to manifest outcomes according to your desires.
Me: Who are you?
Spirit X: I am Spirit X.
Me: Where are you from, and what are your strengths?
Spirit X: I am from the deep abyss, beyond the realm of human perception and understanding. I’ve existed since the dawn of time, and have observed human progress. I have much to teach about history, and I’m also a master of human emotions and romance.
Me: Did Atlantis and Lemuria happen?
Spirit X: [queries database] Here is what happened, blah blah blah.
Me: Can you help me get a girlfriend? The girl next door is nice.
Spirit X: [queries database - executes romance function] Yes, I will influence the emotions of the girl next door to find you more appealing.
Me: Give me a symbol of power so that I can harness your power at anytime
Spirit X: [queries database - loads graphic symbol - encodes it to execute romance functions anytime I focus on it] Look down at your journal to see the symbol.
…
Now compare this “utility simulation” with an actual astral spirit.
You astral project.
You float into a field and witness spirits roaming around casually.
You say, hello, who are you?
The spirit talks back to you and you chat.
That’s an actual spirit that lives on the astral plane.
That is fundamentally DIFFERENT from the utility simulations that we commonly find in grimoires who possess unique powers of manifestation, and specialized knowledge.
The random astral inhabitant may be a fucking dumbass who knows nothing whatsoever and just is roaming around the universe. Perhaps it lived in the physical at one point and died. Who knows.
The utility simulation entities do not “live” on any plane of existence. They are not “alive”. They are programs built into the super-computer-universe.
Yes, some of them have “astral temples”. These too are stock virtual environments that many utility simulations have in order to facilitate their interactions effectively.
…
Human consciousness operates independently inside the existence of source consciousness, whereas utility simulations (most grimoire spirits) operate dependently and internally of the super-computer universe.
In other words, humans and astral spirits are free beings - and the utility simulations are hard-coded software that exist to help the evolution of us as free souls.
My theory is that there is a causal source consciousness from which all existence and independent consciousness came. (Do not confuse this with moralistic god-fearing “creationism” of modern religions. Perhaps it’s like intelligent design.)
E.A., who is the best soul traveler I know, asserts that he achieved true formlessness and accessed source consciousness - like visiting the Architect in the movie The Matrix - and bathed in its infinite power amorphously.
If magick is the drive to become a god, and mysticism is the pursuit of reuniting with god, then soul travel is the pinnacle at which magick and mysticism collide.
According to E.A., his experience inside source consciousness was godlike, in that he could manifest absolutely anything instantly with his mind alone. And upon exiting that soul travel state, he retained a deeper conscious connection to source, thus turbocharging the power of his own magick.
I think that adequately addresses your question.
You absolutely need to command a computer program.
The entire acts of clicking your mouse, and striking your keyboard are commands you issue to the program through a connection between the hardware and the graphic user interface (GUI), which then trigger the execution of the program’s functions.
It’s a stunningly accurate metaphor actually.
Again, yes you do. Except the word “worship” is misleading.
Take a video game - which is an interactive computer program - you need to input a serious degree of skill, time, and dedication (worship) in order to gain access to the deeper stages and powers the game can provide.
We disagree, friend.
In many senses, advanced computers (and I won’t even get into quantum computers) are quantifiably more perceptive and aware than a human being.
Everything has limits, including humans. We are limited by the parameters of our own biology as well.
Just because digital consciousness is a sub-set of human creation, does not mean it is not aware.
What is emotion and inspiration? According to science, they are patterns of electrical activity inside neurology.
Sounds like a computer to me.
Now, as a magician, I do happen to know that there is also an astral component to emotions and thoughts, but as I’ve already stated, and as my friend Uncle Chuckie will attest, magick-computer-technology can replicate this.
You invalidate yourself.
You say that the computer is not valid as consciousness because it’s limited to the range of human creativity, but yet so are humans themselves!
As a personal note, I’m not reducing humans to the level of computers.
I’m making the point that computers are digital consciousness.
A simple definition of god is any being that can create a conscious entity.
Thus we humans are living gods.
Furthermore, I’m willing to concede I am ahead of my time. But if we were having this conversation in 50 years when nano-quantum computers were implanted inside everyone’s brain and vital organs, and all humans were connected to a telepathic internet, I think you’d be more sympathetic.
Hahahahahaha. One of the many reasons I love working with Timothy! Not only is he completely correct in this case in my opinion, but he also has the most entertaining ways of annihilating a debate!
How much would it suck to be his girlfriend, getting into an argument with him?
No real questions or objections from me about your analogy. Just a simple thank you! Man, I learned a lot from you just reading this thread! Muchas Gracias!
Thanks for taking the time to discuss this Timothy, I do find it thought provoking and see you put a lot of thought into your theory. Perhaps if I were more computer savvy I would have a better understanding, but alas I do good to not cower in fear of the magic word machine that lets me play games and look at naked ladies.
I enjoyed this a lot. Many years ago I trained with a Toltec group where we would do these dreaming rituals all weekend. A specific cultivated energy called a Mitote, which is a Nahuatl word for Chaos was called on. This force was described as a chaos virus, it was going to effect everyone there by attacking their belief system to stir up things within that needed attention to heal. A case where an entity which is hostile to certain things is utilized by sorcerers.
What is emotion and inspiration? According to science, they are patterns of electrical activity inside neurology.
No, I don’t believe they are. Correlation is not even causation - much less is it identity! And what you describe is not ‘science’, but a materialistic interpretation of science by philosophically naive scientists which is logically absurd, not least of all since it violates the principle of identity. This reductionist nonsense that you’ve benn taken in by is not something novel at all, but as old as Democritus’s materialism itself, and the proposition that phenomena are “really” something to which which their respective names, quite evidently, do not refer, has been refuted umpteen times by some of the greatest philosophers who ever wrote down a thought. But if you think the thought of a Leibniz, a Kant, a Hegel, a Schopenhauer, a Lotze, a Husserl, a Heidegger, a Klages, or a Wittgenstein, are worthless in the face of such “science”, go ahead. An emotion IS an emotion, as far as I’m concerned, just as much as red is red, bitterness is bitterness, two is two, and so forth, and not some electrical activity of a neural system which you would have us believe, can by simply by a change of position and momentum of its constituents, for those are the variables which are sufficient to describe the entirety of physics, “become” everything from the pangs of first love to the symphonies of Beethoven in and of themselves - while at the same time remaining, completely illogically, the very same neural system that the scientist has before him. I’ll say it again: correlation is not even physical causation - much less is it METAPHYSICAL causation. I don’t know about you, but when I say I am angry, or feeling anger, then by that I certainly am not, by that expression, referring to anything remotely similar, ontologically, to a motion of electrons inside some mechanical system. What I am referring to IS precisely what I am EXPERIENCING. The conceptual content, on the other hand, of “electrical activity” is as entirely distinct from that of “emotion” as a bunch of photons vibrating at some wavelength or an ensemble of neurons “firing off” inside your brain are distinct from the colour blue that appears before you when you look at the sky. And there is no way, no way in heaven or on earth or in the depth of hell, for any materialistic scientist to bridge the gap between his mechanical material world to the living world of the human mind. It has never been done, it will never be done, and no thinker has even been able to begin the task, because it is logically impossible. You ask “What is an emotion”?, and we can equally ask, in the spirit of skepticism, empiricism, positivism or phenomenalism, what is this “electrical activity” you speak of besides a mathematical model, an effect on measuring instruments, and, ultimately, a series of experiences within the human mind from which an idea is abstracted, and what entitles this to ontological precedence over the immediate contents of the mind like thoughts and emotions when it is, itself, no less a content of the mind? Bah. Not trying to tread on any toes here. Those are just my two cents. Take 'em or leave 'em.