I think porn is a sort of magick to watch it. It puts you in a trance state, and has many subliminals, It wouldn’t surprise me if they deliberately put in sigils to vote in the next election, it is loaded with politics now. More important than if it is addictive is that it is rewiring people’s sexuality and opinions and few seem to notice it’s massive influence on society that way. I wonder when people on the forum will start mashing up porn clips with sigils to have a greater magickal effeect on the world as do the big companies.
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I never said without consequence. The consequence would be however others choose to respond. Such as the institution of laws.
However they wish to whether that be by personal ‘vigilante’ action or more formal action.
What society chooses and whether it is fine or not is the personal decision of each individual as it relates to them. One person may consider it fine and others will oppose it.
You seem to think moving beyond humanity is moving beyond the physical when rather it means mastery of the self beyond the inherent weaknesses and ideologies of a single limited species. Humanity is a state of inherent weakness as is any similar state which is the point of self mastery to move beyond those limitations and gain mastery over whatever fields you choose whether physical or spiritual or both without the restrictions of common thoughts as to what rules should apply because of species or society or religion.
I support your right to choose to exercise your will even if I do not support or condone the manifestation that takes on. Just like someone may support free speech and a person’s right to say something but not support or condone the content of what they say. You can support someones right to will or speak how they wish while at the same time finding their use of it abhorrent.
It is saying in everything the opposite exists. Everything can be both good or bad.
This I agree with. Just as you have the individual right to oppose this you do NOT have the supreme right to decide in final for anyone but yourself. Anyone else may exercise their right of will to oppose and undo your actions or work around them.
Yet that means the learning experience is not limited to a single lifetime which is what I have been saying while you are trying to act as if it is and people will not learn instinctively the flaws they made last time in succumbing to certain weaknesses and carry a base knowledge of that into their next life’s mental programming to avoid it in the future.
I have seen a few people already doing this and to rather great effect. Which is where it is a slippery slope of infringement if you try to limit big companies but end up crushing the smaller individuals that have nothing to do with the same agenda in the process.
Ah, so we’re on the same page then, cool.
But if it can enforce, might makes right?
Known pathways to addictions exist.
Some people and groups exploit these, and conduct ongoing research into ways to better exploit these, in order to rob others of free will, without informed consent being involved.
This is not good for magick as a field of study, since magicians are prone to addiction (Crowley being a prime example), and not good for society, as covered above re: involuntarily celibate people, mostly young men.
And supposing you do not support that manifestation, you have the right to take action against it, yes?
No, it’s saying each thing must be addressed on the level it affects, and that recourse to other levels of reality in order to dodge difficult questions will result in hard lessons, pain, and the realisation that reality beats theory every time.
I am not “trying to act” - I am being sincere.
Letting people fall into traps in the hope that next lifetime they know better is a religious approach, in which some other state matters more than the current embodied one.
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This is how it has been throughout history in all of nature. Not necessarily might by force but might by adaption, cunning, intellect. Some form of superiority to push or avoid an agenda whether natural or man made.
Crowley was addicted because he needed it to survive. He had asthma which Heroin had been prescribed as a treatment back then. It should be noted many powerful magicians willingly subject themselves to assorted suffering that they are known to be able to cure as a means of grounding themselves or partaking of an experience.
Bardon for instance could pretty cure many many diseases and disorder but he suffered his own idea of karma as a form of personal payment. He could have easily rectified the wrongs with his body or even escaped many unfortunate situations in his life with his abilities but he chose not to do so.
Free will is only taken when one submits to such and does not truly take action against it. The stronger will wins out in the end.
Yes I do if I decided it was important enough to me and my development and or entertainment to do so.
The level it affects is subjective based on the individual. WHich all things more or less are but somethings are much more so. Everything can be a hindrance or a tool or neither.
Hardly a religious approach given I am certain we both have evidence of the continuation of life beyond a single mortal shell. A religious approach is faith without true basis. A magical approach has a basis that can be observed and felt by the magician and seen to true for others as well in some shape or form.
Look, it is about self-control. If you look at porn every once in a while and/or find a need to jerk off every now and then, so be it. If it becomes a habit, more frequent, where it affects the rest of your life, then you need help.
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So an authoritarian approach to ban all forms of porn is in your eyes as valid as any amount of personal freedom, and also as much as a push to put bimbo-brainwashing into the hands of schoolchildren?
He wasn’t happy about it though, going by what I read.
Someone with a more stable life could possibly have kicked that addiction.
Was he wrong and inferior for not having done so?
Action can only be taken, and resistance of submission engaged, when one is aware of all factors, and all reasonably predicatable consequences.
We are on the same page then, just wanting different things. 
I am saying that porn of the types we are discussing is harmful, you countered with “Everything can be good or bad” which doesn’t address the reality, that many people are having notably bad outcomes.
Faith that someone who dies after being enslaved will automatically be immune to that thing in a future life.
Are the rights of people making manipulative porn so important, that others have to die and somehow ascend in some afterlife state to be free? Wew.
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There is only one game.
And the first rule of winning the game is this:
In unity the demons praised god, losing their wickedness and wrath.
The demons are the fight, fight, fight, fight… all the wars and battles “out there” that are actually thought-forms possessing your energy body.
In other words, the whoremonger and the man who fights to eliminate him are both inside you trying to kill each other and you can’t invoke one without invoking his opposite. The Devil and The Good Lord aren’t duking it out anywhere but inside you, and you can’t side with one without manifesting the other.
There is no such thing as free will and human thought until the higher and lower minds are blended into each other and the higher put in charge. It takes time. You can’t fix people who aren’t conscious or make them otherwise. They have to want to change more than they want to stay asleep. It takes time. Society in our present age is intricately structured to keep us asleep and our peers just validate our suffering narratives and sleepwalking state.
There are no political solutions to spiritual problems, because there are no one-size-fits all blueprints for fixing problems that are attracted and manifested by your own mind. Everybody’s fuck-up-ed-ness is tailor-cut just for them, despite its surface-level depressing sameness to symptoms exhibited by what appear to be similarly fucked up people. Sure, you can FORCE people to improve… You can forcibly cure people of addictions. And forcibly change their tastes, drives and personalities. But you’d be using the same techniques as the people you claim to abhor, and it would still essentially be an act of human sacrifice as you killed the old person without their consent and forcibly manifested a tulpa through them. A happy, sober, spiritual, productive well-adjusted tulpa… that was created through an act of mental rape.
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Like, whoah.
Please don’t make this personal. 
So you are debating with the me, inside you. Enjoy.
Yeah, mainly by engaging in extensive R&D to manufacture and promote addictive products, while denying that they are in any way addictive and misrepresenting them as positive things.
But there are educational solutions to ignorance problems, fortunately. 
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If it can be managed but history has taught that a high price is pain in blood for such attempts. Is the price worth it?
Are you happy with every decision you have made or with things you chose to endure for some ulterior motive? Very few are and happy does not mean the same as satisfied with the result.
Yet people are aware of and able to instinctively resist many such methods without seeming prior knowledge.
This is inherently false as not everyone is having bad outcomes and likely not all those bad outcomes can be traced back to porn and not the personal decision of the person themselves. You pick up a gun and shoot your foot off. Is it the fault of the gun? The person who made the gun? Or your own fault as you pulled the trigger.
Next you will want to use some analogy of what if it was a child. In that case I guess you consider everyone else or the majority of people as mere children which says a lot for your psychology that you feel like they need to be protected from their own choices and not be free to experience.
You play a game walk into a hallway full of traps that keeps killing you. Eventually after many attempts you have memorized the pattern intuitively and can pass without harm. Life is much the same on a much large scale or at least larger to our own perspective which you limit yourself at.
The rights of everyone are equally important to the individuals who they belong too. You cannot choose one over the other without tipping the scales towards saying one group of people is more important. Which is why I always go with the philosophy that myself and the people that are close to me are most important as I decide my priorities. So it becomes as subjective as this whole issue.
Exactly. In the end you become the very monster you claimed to oppose in all due hypocrisy. Some are willing to accept and acknowledge that in fulfillment of their will and desire but most just lie to themselves. If you are going to change reality you must except that to some you are a tyrant and to others a savior and to most you do not matter at all.
Sometimes this is true… but then again you have anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers still.
In the end I am against further regulation on anyone. Keep a loose frame of laws to maintain civil order but let people otherwise do as they wish and operate as they wish whether selfish or altruistic in the views of others or detrimental to some and beneficial to some. Humanity unfortunately still needs laws to keep from reverting to wild animals and slaughtering each other.
Ah, but are you “educating” them… or is the nazified nanny state oppressing them and taking away their right to choose, meanwhile passing lots of laws that make ever-more predatory expansions of executive power coupled with ever-more aggressive intrusions into the individual citizen’s personal, private life.
Are you a well-intentioned person who knows better, or a pushy, judgemental prude with nothing better to do than harsh other people’s buzz and try to tell decent regular folks how to live their lives?
“We’re just trying to educate people.” says the government. “You’re using agressive social engineering tactics to take away people’s right to choose.” say the hamburger joints and cigarette companies with their aggressively R&D’d social engineering tactics and products tailor-made to cause addiction and thus inhibit free choice.
It’s the champeenship fight between the Devil and the Good Lord. If you put your money on anything but a fight that never ends, you’re throwing your money away.
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Ok.
Sexual art ok.
No porn.
I understand, Madame @Lady_Eva.
Alrighty.
[And, the lonely mage, Cyberseeker walks in the dusty, arid wasteland with his trusty smartphone fearing the mighty power of the wise sorceress Lady_Eva.]
Yes. 
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If you want the girl, that is not a good thing!
You want to exude sexual energy, you want them to feel things in your presence.
Women are incredibly conscious of subtleties.
There’s a reason why so many people recommend not wanking it for a period of time before going to a bar, etc. That things like an antenna homie don’t shut off the signal!
You said as much yourself:
Were witch-hunts okay because the really smart witches knew how to hide, and only idiots got caught?
One can extend that kind of thinking to all kinds of things.
Moving on:
Then why do any people get addicted to things they have been assured are not addictive?
Not everyone, but people who cross certain thresholds of use, which they are not made aware of in advance with porn, all suffer more or less predictable outcomes, and as with both sissy-brainwash and bimbo hypnosis, people seem to be getting something completely different than they expected, which was safe and free-will fun.
No, literal children are finding porn and getting addicted to it, this is not hypothetical or pearl clutching drama. But that’s a whole other topic to do with access to smartphones etc.
You’re the one drawing lines between the “strong,” who can do things that are habit forming and not get addicted, and the “weak” who need to suffer until they are destroyed, as stated here:
Moving on:
Or, you just deal with the people laying the traps, and proceed to not have to spend several lifetimes entirely about healing from the effects of their actions. 
But you claim the strong are more important than the weak, and that the weak must suffer, as stated:
Back to this reply:
Are all vaccines all good all of the time, and without limitation?
Letting people know porn has adverse effects has led to the NoFap movement, which is where we came in.
I can’t take “nazi” seriously as a concept in a debate, because that’s a political party that ended in 1945, any more than I can enage with being accused of being a Romulan Battle Captain, the reincarnation of Mr Hyde, or part of the Umpa Lumpahs.
Unless you have good cause to fear me and my Schutzstaffel are about to break down doors and remove modems, delete “Research” folders, etc., this analogy just evokes a whole range of fallacious argument tactics.
Nazi power was state-owned and enforced by law, I am just someone trying to point out that porn may harm magicians and may have adverse consequences. Please keep this proportional, and realistic, lest I accuse you of aiming your Armada of battleships/Mongol hordes at me… or something. 
(But if you want to bring up stereotypical nazis, I am not the one suggesting the weak deseve to die in this topic, so whatever.)
My concern is education, I covered that above. And I hope that wasn’t a personal attack.
Because we’ve had a rollocking good debate here, and so far kept things entirely civilised.
Precisely, those who fear knowledge and education, who lie about their tactics, motive, methods, and intent, are usually trying to fuck with our free choice and make us do something we wouldnlt want to, if we havd that information.
Timothy wrote that.
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Is performing magick in a society that does not allow it ok?
Because they still have to learn as I said later with the metaphor of a hallway of traps and quite clearly not everyone has the same level of intuition or ability but if we held ourselves back so all are on equal setting well… that sounds like certain ideologies that tend to end really badly.
I never said destroyed. I said until they learn from their weaknesses and failing to grow strong. One life ending does not mean destroyed it just means starting a new life, a new game, or even moving to an entirely different setting.
Yet are you healing from the effects of the trap or from your own failings that left you vulnerable to it? You learn how to use matches but set your house on fire should the person who sold you the matches be blamed? Or should you learn to be more careful with fire? A few lifetimes is not that long on the upper end of things. Once again time is a rather subjective matter of perception and our view of time in these bodies is far different than when we are free of them. This can be experienced just in the process of mental and astral traveling. There is no time limit ultimately except those we set for ourselves.
Are they though or they both as important and the only deciding factor is what each person sees as most important and who wins out in the end. History is written by the victor and the weak do in time become the strong. To think one group is more important just because it seems to be the victim at the moment does not mean the other is necessarily in the wrong. Though if it to your view then how are you going to resolve it effectively without creating even worse problems for yourself at the very least?
Is believing the earth is flat a good thing all the time? Or is it only good if it can serve the purpose of showing a different perspective or as a model for an experiment or exploration of thought?
Someone sticks a fork in the wall socket I say what comes next is pretty well deserved. A tyrant oversteps his bounds and pisses everyone off at once. What comes next is pretty well deserved for those mistakes. Not knowing any better does not work well as an excuse in life. Not paying attention to the signals of your own body or mind is quite akin to this. If there is a problem there are warnings of it that are readily noticeable unless you willfully ignore them. This goes for mental conditioning as well. I could also make a natural selection argument with this. We are not above natural cycles just because we are slightly more intelligent.
Ultimately the person decides if they want to watch porn or not. How often are we told something is good for us but we just don’t do it anyways? How often are we told there is great gratification in something but we don’t bite the bait? Very often. There is also already a general knowledge on the risks of porn people ignore already for that matter same with tv and every other medium.
Yes this has been quite fun hasn’t it.
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It’s not that hard to make a few friends who’re down for casual sex.
I’m not looking for a relationship. If satisfying a biological urge is my sole reason for interacting with a person, let’s be efficient about it and get straight to business. The whole song and dance of the casual conversation, the seduction, and all that entails the final reward is a waste of time.
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I asked you if witchhunts were okay with you because you have this “only the weak fall down, and they deserve it” argument going on.
I think education and knowledge are always good, but if I think magick is harming someone, I will try to encourage them to acquire balance or find a less destabilising paradigm. I have done that countless times on here.
Most ideologies start out with good intentions, and ALL have some positive aspects, but manufacturing deliberate traps (or knowing they exist and not warning someone who’s unaware) seems purely malicious.
Agian, is the right to create even the most harmful and addicting porn (or food, or whatever else) to be totally protected from criticism, while people must suffer and die as a result?
The failing is having a society where people who set traps are protected, while people who fall into them are deemed to be less important.
The trap-makers can surely be thrown into jail then, since it will only take them a few lifetimes of this happening to realise making traps isn’t acceptable. 
Making a trap is a conscious willed act, falling into one you didn’t know existed is not.
See Divine Paradox, above.
We can rationally decide whether the need to make traps for others is as important, as necessary to the maker, as other people’s desire not to spend a lifetime struggling to try and escape, failing, and having to handle the fallout over multiple lifetimes.
Again, trying for a world where setting traps for others is largely discouraged would allow us to see how that worked out.
What doesn’t kill you, doesn’t always make you stronger, or PTSD would not be a real thing (along with its spiritual analogues, soul-loss and past-life traumatic imprints).
Firstly, do the trap-makers lose more if they are not permitted to make their traps, than people who fall into them could lose?
Secondly, is a society with traps everywhere a thing I find personally important to either defend, or end?
Thirdly, what seems to be the effect of allowing unlimited trap-making on the a society, does it lead to more general happiness, or more general pain?
And so on.
For example a society that gave all high-schoolers a 3-month course of daily heroin injections, then left them to sort themselves out, because heroin manufacturers wanted to create a market, may not really be very nice to live in.
Scale that down to allowing heroin ads in school, promoted by cool celebrities and with zero warning about the likely effects of prolonged use, and the parallel gets closer to what we’re talking about here.
So if you saw someone from a culture with no wall sockets about to do this because they genuinely didn’t understand the consequences, would you also think that was fine?
Again, you defend the trap-makers at all costs, as though they alone are immune to any criticism. This is what I disagree with.
There is nothing remotely natural about modern porn, it’s availability, and the methods it’s delivered by, something which has already been covered in a link above.
If you woke up tomorrow and someone had covertly spiked your food with a highly-addicting opiate that caused suffering the moment you began to detox, and you didn’t realise this had happened until you started feeling the effects and needing more, would it still be “your own stupid fault” for not running drug tests on your food?
Or would it be the fault or the asshole who did this to you?
But they don;t know the consewuences, until now, and as long as people dismiss Nofap as mindless puritam=nism, nor can they make an informed choice.
Psych studies show people are more loss-averse than inclined to try and gain (will try to avoid losing a $5 note they were just given rather than try to double it, even of the odds are the same).
Yes, I think so.
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Society has always had traps and trapmakers and on the same scale as today as previously stated as most societies were far smaller in the past and used religious and spiritual versions of it to do so. It is foolish to think that the ruling classes didn’t use mass programming of even dreams to influence the mind the same as media is used today. We certainly have the capabilities now and have seen the effects in our own experiments.
What I defend ends up being the right of people to produce what forms of entertainment and media they wish whether those people be corporations or private individuals as trying to curb one usually fucks up a bunch of other people.
Yet we live in a culture where the risks are rather well known and just disregarded.
First I would blame myself for not sensing the difference in the food and after dealing with the consequences of detoxing would work on being able to detect such in the future. Of course I would take my own personal revenge if I did not benefit ultimately as I do prescribe to the theory of using physical stress and pain as a means to accelerate the growth of certain psychic abilities. You see such things in shamanism where near death experiences awaken a calling or certain powers. The stress triggers a survival response that can end up ultimately beneficial if the result is cultivated and yes I have put myself through a to test this. I do tend to be a masochist at times.
Perhaps because it comes across as mindless puritanism. Perhaps try an approach of granting even more sublime pleasures and certainly change it from no fap. Fight fire with fire. Porn offers pleasure and gratification. Do the same but in ways that train and cultivate the will at the same time and an exaltation of experience that makes what you are trying to warn them away from seem trivial in comparison. Give a better alternative and become more alluring. Of course that means you effectively become the same as the porn makers just selling a different drug that is better at least until someone invokes a cannibalistic demon but only a small minority would have such problems I think.
I believe quite firmly in experiencing the pleasures of the body and mind and the energy of oneself and others. So denial of porn is denying one means that may be fulfilled even if it is not my usual means it might be the means someone else commonly uses as a medium.
Offer a means of training biofeedback for example to induce the same pleasures solely by ones own will. Ways to channel sexual energy instead of losing it to porn which tends to completely offset the mental effects as the act of channeling the energy impresses strongly like a sigil to overall strengthen the energy body. Instead of trying to avoid teach people to use it as a tool or go without completely and still have the same pleasures and gratifications.
Change the means so nothing is truly lost and there is only gain to be had. Physical pleasure does not need to be pushed aside or the stimulation of the senses but simply redirect it to come from more controlled sources or to be utilized constructively. Make it a revolution in sex magick by any other name but that.
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Pornography when becomes a crutch to feel alive does harm one’s spiritual practices and even more one’s magick. But again someone who meditates regularly will not depend on porn to feel good unless the person’s meditation is some made-up shit. Porn on the lines of hard addictions does a lot of damage to chakras, destablises them, fucks up brain circuitry and reinforces the body consciousness making the ego stronger and stronger. Such person will never attempt to do any meditation and practise any magick or at best the progress will be at a snail’s pace.
Not everyone gets addicted to porn and even among addicts there will be different levels of porn consumption. Only unfortunate souls with very bad influence from some planets will become slaves to hard addictions like porn as they will use porn to self medicate their trauma in their lives and also those who are very sensitive to negative energies around them. Almost 99% of the people globally who are addicted to porn would be from Pluto in Scorpio generation.
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