Contradicting Azazel

[quote=“WrithingParasite, post:40, topic:1489”]Elison: The reason people are getting pissed is not because you’re “challenging our views”. It’s because you’re trying to challenge our views while not supporting your counter argument. You yell, “Stephen Hawking said it all! I’m telling you! You have to trust me on this one!”

You have to provide actual claims and points from Stephen Hawking’s Grand Design instead of expecting to us to know or care about it. Cause we don’t. And we won’t give credence to someone who can’t back themselves up.[/quote]

In case you didn’t notice, I told them to go watch Stephen Hawking’s Grand Design. It’s 3 part documentary about how the universe, it’s laws and the mind works. And it’s science. And it’s science that actually proves the existence of magic, if you watch carefully. So why should I back up my claims here, in writing, when Hawking explains it better than me? I told people where to go to find out the answers. This is better than just writing here about everything he said there. It’s more practical. So, in a way or another, I actually did back myself up. But it seem you actually don’t care about the backing up, not that I don’t do it.

And I also backed up my contradictions in the OP.

Explain what you mean by vortex between worlds. I’ve had a vision of this place which I’ve documented on another thread. However I’m not convinced one way or the other of its actual existence in objective reality.

Elison: Again, you’re arguing wrong. When in a debate you don’t say, “Well, when you go home and look up blah blah blah, you’ll see that I’m right.” It doesn’t work like that. Choose some points from it that back it up and give us incentive to go with your view.

Zecharyah: Of course. It’s the space between this world and the Other. When “crossing” the Abyss, you become more of that side than this and more easily cross over. From Enantiodromia:

“Furthermore, the Abyss represents the place(s) where the causal merges into the acausal, and thus where the causal is or can be “transcended”, so the individual can, if prepared, enter the realm of acausality and become familiar - sans a self - with acausal entities. Thus, The Abyss is a nexion to the acausal; a nexus of temporal, a-temporal, and spatial and a-spatial, dimensions.”

My argument is based on Hawking’s documentary. Again, you don’t understand practicality. Why should I write everything that Hawking says in his documentary and books here, when you can very well acquire pdfs or the documentary from torrent sites and check it out directly from the source? Not to count the fact that he explains it better than me anyway. It would be ridiculous to start writing a whole bunch of really long posts here about what Hawking already said, when you can get those things for free.

[quote author=Elison link=topic=1532.msg20246#msg20246 date=1375483496]

My argument is based on Hawking’s documentary. Again, you don’t understand practicality. Why should I write everything that Hawking says in his documentary and books here, when you can very well acquire pdfs or the documentary from torrent sites and check it out directly from the source? Not to count the fact that he explains it better than me anyway. It would be ridiculous to start writing a whole bunch of really long posts here about what Hawking already said, when you can get those things for free.
[/quote

You are basing your argument on certain premises, but are not stating what those premises are. If you are going to use Stephen Hawking’s Grand Design to bolster your argument, the least you should do is provide the bullet points that form the basis of your premises, and then direct others to the Grand Design for the complete picture. Simply telling people to watch the documentary, without pointing out some salient points as to why your argument is valid, is not a proper argument. When arguing a point, you need to back up your assumptions. If you are going to rely on Stephen Hawking, how about including a quote, or something that proves your point? The proper methodology of an argument is to back up your point of view, which you are not doing. When you state something as true, you need to back it up with evidence, from your source, in this case Stephen Hawking. When writing a research paper, in making an argument, you include data that supports your argument, and if the reader wants to go deeper then they can track down the source you used. You do not just write your argument and then tell the reader to read the salient papers. You have to include evidence of why the other papers support you. If you want to support your argument with Stephen Hawking, then you better include the salient points. Then, if we are interested, we may take the time to track down the full story. Otherwise, it is just your opinion.

Looks like I screwed up the quote function and somehow my spiel got tacked onto Elison’s. LOL

My argument is based on Hawking’s documentary. Again, you don’t understand practicality. Why should I write everything that Hawking says in his documentary and books here, when you can very well acquire pdfs or the documentary from torrent sites and check it out directly from the source? Not to count the fact that he explains it better than me anyway. It would be ridiculous to start writing a whole bunch of really long posts here about what Hawking already said, when you can get those things for free.[/quote]

But your claim is that Hawking explains things better than Azazel in TBOA.
Why can you not summarize what you think Hawking’s model is,
in contrast to the cosmos explained by Azazel?

Your the one who wanted to debate Ellison, so either post YOUR understanding of Hawking’s material or be quiet. Telling someone to simply watch something is not an argument it’s a crutch and only shows you can’t articulate the ideas you so adamantly cling to. If you can’t even explain them how can you accept them?

I’d like to clear up a little misconception you’re having, right now. The questions you’re asking are pure metaphysics - there are no facts of the matter. What there are, are theories about the nature of reality.

As such, there are a LOT of books written on the subject. It’s a big part of any philosophy program you’d take at university - metaphysics, epistemology, theory of mind, etc. In fact, you could study this for your entire life, get a PhD in philosophy and read everything to your heart’s content - and you will see that there is not an answer, at least not an objective “Truth” you can put your finger on.

But, as everyone has pointed out - you cannot experience reality in its totality as a limited human being. So what you have is your experience, and what seems true to you.

I’m sorry, but there are no facts here, just good and bad arguments, consensus and unique perspectives. If you want empty intellectual inquiry, study philosophy (or even the philosophy of physics). If you want an answer, practice.

I think Elison is related to Fluffycatz, maybe her brother or something.

Did you not read what I said? I can explain what Hawking said, but what’s the point in me writing a whole bunch of stuff that is already in a pdf you can acquire for free? It’s a loss of time and I’m a practical person.

And I can’t explain MY understanding of what he says. Science is objective, you can’t say an atom is not a particle, but it’s actually something else. There’s no individual understanding of science. Science is fact. If we both see a woman, you can’t say that you see something else and not the woman. That’s ridiculous.

Elison: Just because you have a scientist discussing metaphysics doesn’t suddenly turn it into science.

I’m glad that Hawking’s metaphysics jives with your sensibilities. It’s good to find something that makes sense to you. But it doesn’t necessarily invalidate things that others have said. Expertise has no bearing on truth, though there can be correlation.

There are actually people who say that an atom is not a particle - it’s a collection of sub-particles, which themselves are rarified energy or move into and out of existence…

Science is not fact. Science is system for organizing and interpreting a collection of observations. Those interpretations are refined until theories are developed. Theories are models for what we think of as reality. Those models are adjusted based on what we’re going for - they are not fact, they are not truth.

Newtonian physics describes things at the scale from microorganisms to planets. Relativity physics describes things that are larger/faster/denser. Quantum physics describes things at the scale of atoms and smaller. Chemistry describes things at the level of chemical interaction. None of these fields are unified, and none of them claim to be fact.

There is no universal understanding of science, there are valid disagreements within most disciplines in and of themselves. We tend to elevate science to the position of “Truth” because it has been such a powerful methodology. But it is still a model, or a set of models, for us to make sense of reality. Or at least make sense of what we believe is reality.

And that is the nature of metaphysics - trying to figure out what reality actually IS.

When you say “we both see a woman, you can’t then deny it”, what is this supposed to prove? Suppose you and I are both standing in a room, and I see a woman and you don’t? Am I hallucinating? Are you? Suppose you continue adding people to the room, and they all see her, but you still don’t? Suppose someone else enters the room, and states the woman is a ghost - all of those who could see her were seers but didn’t realize it, you still see nothing, and the last person understands the difference between you, them, and the woman.

Then a final person enters and says that you are all the same, there is no identity/individuality. You are just a part of the godhead perceiving itself from various levels of consciousness. That you are all perceiving individuality is an illusion generated by your energetic vibration, and if you could merely raise that vibration, you would see it too.

So what then? Are all those other people in the room liars? Are they normal and you’re hallucinating? How could you possibly verify the perception of these others?

To be clear - these are rhetorical questions, they are there to illustrate the trains of thought one can follow. They are intended to have multiple answers.

This is metaphysics. It doesn’t have answers, it has questions and reasoned arguments in response to those questions. The most satisfactory way of understanding these problems is through experience, not through explanation.

For further pondering (and a good postulation for why we can’t independently verify reality):

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality[/url]

[url=http://www.simulation-argument.com/]The Simulation Argument

[quote=“redcircle, post:52, topic:1489”]Elison: Just because you have a scientist discussing metaphysics doesn’t suddenly turn it into science.

I’m glad that Hawking’s metaphysics jives with your sensibilities. It’s good to find something that makes sense to you. But it doesn’t necessarily invalidate things that others have said. Expertise has no bearing on truth, though there can be correlation.[/quote]

Hawking discusses metaphysics? LOL! Hawking discusses proven facts about science and reality.

So an atom is a collection of sub-particles. And what does sub-particles form? A particle! Hence why they are called sub-PARTICLES.

[quote=“Elison, post:54, topic:1489”][quote=“redcircle, post:52, topic:1489”]Elison: Just because you have a scientist discussing metaphysics doesn’t suddenly turn it into science.

I’m glad that Hawking’s metaphysics jives with your sensibilities. It’s good to find something that makes sense to you. But it doesn’t necessarily invalidate things that others have said. Expertise has no bearing on truth, though there can be correlation.[/quote]

Hawking discusses metaphysics? LOL! Hawking discusses proven facts about science and reality.[/quote]

No he does not. Hawking is a THEORETICAL physicist. Nothing he talks about is a fact or reality. He discusses theories and models of why certain things occur and possible causes but he does not deal in facts.

Who told you that?

This is annoying.

"Did you not read what I said? I can explain what Hawking said, but what’s the point in me writing a whole bunch of stuff that is already in a pdf you can acquire for free? It’s a loss of time and I’m a practical person.

And I can’t explain MY understanding of what he says. Science is objective, you can’t say an atom is not a particle, but it’s actually something else. There’s no individual understanding of science. Science is fact. If we both see a woman, you can’t say that you see something else and not the woman. That’s ridiculous."

Oh right, I forgot, you can’t ever be wrong, it’s everyone else who’s wrong! Get your head out of your ass and make an argument for once.

“If you can’t explain something simply, you don’t understand it well enough”. I don’t know who said that but I know it’s true in this case.

“Hawking discusses metaphysics? LOL! Hawking discusses proven facts about science and reality.”

There’s one major problem there kiddo, “proven facts about science”. Yeah, those don’t exist. Everything in science is just a theory and there is nothing proven. That’s why everyone is proving each other wrong at every turn.

I’m gonna say this one last time Elison, either make an actual argument and stop avoiding the questions by saying, “HAWKING SAYS IT BETTER, I SWEAR GUYZ!” or just shut up.

Did you not read what I said? I can explain what Hawking said, but what’s the point in me writing a whole bunch of stuff that is already in a pdf you can acquire for free? It’s a loss of time and I’m a practical person…[/quote]

I did read what you said and saw the reasons your hiding behind. Notice in my response to your opening post that I did not simply regurgitate BOA or say “Read BOA. I don’t need to elaborate further.”, I used examples based on my understanding on subjective reality.

I’m a practical person as well and I don’t expect you to quote what can be found elsewhere just as I would not. It would be highly impractical of me to say I want to debate and then not have anything to say other than to tell someone to read a book. If you can’t explain your views don’t say your prepared to defend them.

And I can't explain MY understanding of what he says. Science is objective, you can't say an atom is not a particle, but it's actually something else. There's no individual understanding of science. Science is fact. If we both see a woman, you can't say that you see something else and not the woman. That's ridiculous

Bullshit, scientist have conflicting views and theories constantly. Science is an agreed upon reality in a controlled environment. If a man walks in a forrest and feels a breeze touch his cheek who is to say its wind and who is to say its spirit? Your woman argument is weak also, I may see a woman because I know she’s a woman, you may see a man because she’s a transvestite and has the outward appearance of a man.

So an atom is a collection of sub-particles. And what does sub-particles form? A particle! Hence why they are called sub-PARTICLES.[/quote]

Good job, you couldn’t even take your analysis all the way through the sentence you quoted.

Particle theory is an older way of viewing atoms. It’s a model. The word “atom” means indivisible (from atomos), as the scientists who discovered them thought they were the lowest unit of substance. Then subatomic particles were discovered, as was nuclear fission, and we figured out that they are actually divisible. Then with quantum mechanics, things got even weirder. Atoms are empty space (primarily), bits of condensed energy, and quantum fluxuations - at least according to current theories. Not exactly the smallest grain of sand that the name “particle” implies, is it?

So much for “facts”, eh?

[quote=“Elison, post:54, topic:1489”][quote=“redcircle, post:52, topic:1489”]Elison: Just because you have a scientist discussing metaphysics doesn’t suddenly turn it into science.

I’m glad that Hawking’s metaphysics jives with your sensibilities. It’s good to find something that makes sense to you. But it doesn’t necessarily invalidate things that others have said. Expertise has no bearing on truth, though there can be correlation.[/quote]

Hawking discusses metaphysics? LOL! Hawking discusses proven facts about science and reality.[/quote]

You discussed a book and video of his about theoretical physics. Theoretical physics are a reasoned conjecture about the nature of reality. You even went so far as to say he explained how magick could work. Therefore, metaphysics.

You’re just embarrassing yourself now. Please stop.