Closed practices and gatekeeping

I was surfing through Instagram and when I usually do I get a nagging pain in my balls every time I encounter the spiritual communities out there cause they’re full of BS.

So I was scrolling and found this guy saying that some tools in witchcraft are off limits and only specific to certain lineages and you won’t be able to touch them as an outsider and a lot of people in the comment are agreeing with him and say If you steal practices from another cultures the spirits will fuck you up and stop appropriating from closed practices, someone even said that “white sage. It’s for Native Americans only ”.

I’m sorry If I’m going to be disrespectful but I don’t understand the stupid logic behind closed practices and certainly a lot of outsider do take a lot from closed practices and things are just fine it’s only the people that make a big deal out of it for some fucking reason beyond me and it gets on my nerves every time someone try to boss me around and tell me just do stuff from your own cultures without appropriating from others because it just doesn’t work out this way I doubt the universe itself as a whole and the source give a flying fuck about the concept of gatekeeping and closed practices.

What are your thoughts on this ?

5 Likes

It’s bullshit, designed to scare you off. Only humans do this, not the spirits.

We have discussed this on this forum before in the context of Vodoun. What you really find, is they want contact from all humans - the more the merrier - as this fits thier goals, to help humanity.

So you can make your own relationship with any entity, and ask IT what it wants to do and if it wants to talk to you.

I find it disrespectful to the entities themselves to attempt tp treat them like children who can’t choose who they will and will not work with. They have minds of thier own.

There’s no logic, it’s emotional.

A fear-riddled cleric that thinks he’ll lose relevancy if occultists bypass him wants to maintain power. It’s no different than the Catholic Church saying that people always have to talk to a priest to talk to thier god, and burning witches and “heretics” for doing thier own thing.

You’re right, it DOESN’T work this way. It’s just tribalism and closed mindedness, borne of, again, fear of losing control, power and relevancy.

Truth is, nobody cares. Any occultist worth his salt has the discernment to see through this. As you already did :smiley:

13 Likes

Haha. Just laugh, turn around, fart on them, and walk off. Do your own thing.

New agey, wishy washy, fear-centered, fear-preaching, woke occultists who care about who’s practicing what and police other peoples morality are not worth ANYONES attention. Leave them to the wind. Embrace the rebel lol.

Ive used white sage, no dead apache spirit came to strike me down.

11 Likes

Despite I really agree that a lot of gatekeeping seems to mainly be a need to feel like a special little snowflake and in some.cases a hunger for power.and control. I do get some specific closed practices. Like in family or tribal practices with certain connections and specific techniques that are passed down many generations. I think some things should just be offlimits, unless you’re initiated and properly guided and educated, so you know WTF you’re doing and know what you’re talking about. It feels really disrespectful and sometimes even very harmful for the original practice if some dumb, ignorant dreadlocked lightworker boasts and spreads a lot of misinformation about some obscure practice, just for the see-me-be-special insta likes. In that case what’s closed or not is not for other reddit/ tiktok whities to decide, but for the actual tribal priest(ess) or native shaman. What I always find funny is the example of fellow whities collectively getting their panties in a bunch when they see a another whitey wearing a kimono or an aikido/ kenjitsu zubon, for instance, but when you ask any random person in Japan they are usually just happy people of other nationalities take an interest in aspects of their culture.

I also do fully support any means to stifle the (useless) trends of using white sage or other rare plants by any means necessarry. Gatekeep that shit all the way! In my case not really for respect of the cultures involved, but for the damage mass-harvesting of these plants does.

9 Likes

I am against extreme gatekeeping but sometimes I understand it. For example, It is believed that Turkic shamanic traditions should be only done by ethnic Turkic people( Azerbaijanis, Kazakhs, Turkish, Uzbek, Tatar, Siberian etc) because since it is extremely spirit based these ancestral protective spirit only may help their own people. However, this is something different from protecting a culture. Nevertheless, there are Turkic deities like Gok Tengri or goddess Umay Ana to whom everyone can pray to. But Yiyə/Iye spirits are very unpredictable even for native Turkic people.

6 Likes

To Know, to Will, to Dare, to Keep Silent.
If we didn’t dare and will, we miss two very important parts of magic.

6 Likes

Yeah it reeks of nothing but fear of losing relevance and statues.

2 Likes

As E.A said in his video on his complete works, “without the shackles of religious dogma, or being initiated into some silly hat society”.

4 Likes

I’ve been accused of “cultural appropriation” for being a white person who prays to Egyptian deities. These accusations came from other white Americans, not Egyptians. I got the same message from the Egyptian pantheon—we are here for all the humans. Things like skin color and place of birth do not matter to them. And why should they? Humans can’t control these things.

6 Likes

Yeah, “cultural appropriation” is slightly different but very fake and diminishing, sometimes hugely disrespectful to the actual people who LOVE that others love thier culture and are inspired by it or want to learn about it.

People of the actual cultures are perfectly capable of tell everyone for themselves if they want to gatekeep, without people trying to speak for them without even asking them if they needed them to. It’s really rude and assumptive, and another kind of power trip at someone else’s expense.

I get that there could be a concern of a loved deity being mocked, but that is not the what occultists like the OP are talking about. Genuine and respectful study and employment of contact with any deity is in that deities interests, whether some human’s like it or not.

And SO many deities are egregores, without humans to give them energy they will probably dissipate and die like a forgotten ghost. The more people wok wit them, the better chance they have or surviving civilizational changes across eons.

4 Likes

Unkempt thoughts as I wind down for the day:

For my culture, it’s our duty to protect what is left of our culture after centuries of subjugation from people who want both to eradicate it and yet desire limitless access to it. “Breaking and entering” through the “gate” typically result in banishment, legal dispute, or death. The cultural group out numbers the entitled individual. However the culture still gets shared with individuals who are respectful.

White sage is endangered in some US areas. Indigenous groups usually ask for bare minimum to buy from reputable shops. Ask and listen to the people actually from those cultures.

Overall I think anyone who doesn’t empathize or understand or otherwise feels entitled to what is culturally protective gatekeeping is exactly the type of person who should remain locked out. The irony being that the people who get mad about gatekeeping are the ones keeping the gates locked. Being understanding is what gets gates opened up for you.

Think of it like a house. You can knock, I can let you in if you’re friendly, but I keep it locked if you’re acting out of turn. I would prefer if you don’t rustle through my private drawers and medicine cabinet once inside.

I think there’s a lot of ignorance as to what gatekeeping is intended for or what appropriation even is, and people would rather be mad than look into that.

6 Likes

Genuine closed practices are one thing and i do agree there. However, what these people are talking about are stupid ass ignorant white people shaming other white people for wearing something or doing something from another culture when said culture is simply happy to have others take interest.

Im against gatekeeping white sage, people should definitely treat it with respect but white sage belongs to the earth first and then whoever picks it/buys it second, its not owned exclusively by any practice. Its a plant. Use it. However… mass consumerism and new agey hippy groups using it is simply a waste of resources and that should definitely be nipped in the bud.

3 Likes

I think a big problem with a lot of your stereotypical WASP types is this: they’ve lost the roots to their own culture. Majority abrahamic religions have done a good job at eradicating true heritage and magical practice, and feeling disenfranchised leads one to explore alternatives- any alternative- to seek the Path.

No magus can fault another for seeking the source. It’s an inherent thing that draws our souls to the manipulation and communion of the universe, for the betterment of our gens or at the least, ourselves.

Something that puts pressure on minority groups is painful to admit: those rare few people of a genuine inherited magical tradition of a Northern European descent are reluctant to share their heritage with those of them that have lost it. Here’s a little bit of anecdotal hearsay: I’ve a close female friend who is a card carrying member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee. There are plenty of people on our area who are obviously of Cherokee descent physically, or claim so through confirmable social norms and practices. She’s spiritual, a good up-and-coming medicine woman of sorts; she’s loathe to come off with wisdom to those of an unverified bloodline because she feels at some level they betrayed (or their ancestors, rather) the cultural identity of being Cherokee: they forsook the heritage for ease.

I get where she’s coming from. My mother has largely made her living for 50 years being the tennant witch in the holler in Appalachia from which we spring. Her mother did so before her, often acting as midwife/sorceress. I myself am loathe to part with secrets I’ve gained or cultivated, but especially those my ancestors have: these secrets are for my bloodline, the children of my siblings. There is no shortage where I come from of Biker-Witches, affiliated with various groups; Of wiccans, of ‘cunningfolk’ operating off what they learned from Silver Ravenwolf twenty years ago in 8th grade; of those who’ve read a few books by Mathers and Crowley and assume they’re the next Goetic Prince; and in the older, secluded places, away from the interstates and Blue Ridge Parkway, older families of true heritage, who came to these shores fleeing persecution, fleeing the Reformation, fleeing the sacrament and what came with it.

Im reluctant to share what I know with people because I can’t recall a time when sharing risked death, but I can count on one hand how many generations have existed since it could mean a death sentence. Why should I share my experience, the wealth of my family’s lore to any student or guest, knowing that at some point in time their ancestors betrayed the Way. Why should I help rebuild or fertilize those who at one point forsook it? And on a darker note, DOING SO WOULD DIMINISH THE POWER OVER OTHERS. Let’s not be coy: power is power, and power cultivated over generations hard to relinquish. Why give away power freely when access to it often times is the only means the tradition has for self maintenance in the long run?

My garden gate is latched, and I converse with the neighbors, and may even let them peek to the lawn in front of the house: but for the most part, my back yard is filled with the noxious weeds I grew up loving, and I’ve no intention of letting any but the most trustworthy guest spy the secrets of a healthy belladonna in summer’s bloom, the thickening sap of a spent euphorbia, or the tall stems of yellow mullein following the fullness of the moon like an antenna.

Gatekeeping is what it is, and it never stopped an aspiring talented magician: someone you can meet on an equal footing. Only then would I lift the latch. Only to ‘Talent in adversity with a tacit tongue’.

5 Likes

As someone who’s from Egypt myself I don’t give a flying fuck if you work with Egyptian deities, they’re not my property to decide are you allowed to work with them or not.
Let alone I never had any encounter with them except Anubis but it was a dream years ago where he was attacking me for some reason like lmaoooo, but that’s the point, just because I’m from their region it doesn’t mean they’d favour me over anyone else outside my location and I think it’s the same with other cultures but the Ego and fear of losing relevancy that others have won’t allow the them to admit that ever.

4 Likes

Sorry to resurrect another dead horse, but I believe that when we cant control others, we find faults and accuse others as gatekeepers … especially if others hold the keys.

1 Like

I’m not sure if I understand what you mean but I guess it’s okay If I say that I disagree.

I know well that talking about politics is against the rules of the forum ( alas ) and I’m not going to violate them but I guess it’s okay If I just say that I’m an anarchist to give you an idea of what kind of opinions I would have about something like the topic of this thread.

I think it’s the other way around, the ones who hold the keys are the ones to be called out for anything that has do with “ control ”
In other cases I would completely agree that at times when people find themselves unable to get a share of your own properties they would say you’re a gatekeeper, stingy……..etc but we’re not talking about a house or a hot wife or anything of sorts, we’re talking about knowledge that is the birthright of everyone and no one ever has the right to deny people the access until they prove themselves worthy by meeting the criteria they would establish.
Sorry guys but I just don’t see things this way neither I want them be this way, it’s been like this for centuries and enough of that please. I think introducing some change would be a very good idea.

1 Like

Would you give a Private in the US military the ability to launch ICBMs?

NO. You’d make him prove himself first.

That being said, there are plenty of secrets that have been kept mystery due to Gate Keeping, the will of the knowing preferring to control the unknowing. That lies within the ability to discern and reach your teacher.

I’ve not problem shutting the gate on (even my blood kin) shutting the door to those who are irresponsible or unkempt. An irresponsible student is a Golden Ticket to a Bonfire.

2 Likes

Well I don’t know what to do about this argument cause right now I’m torn between many conflicting opinions.

At one side I’ve come to agree ( to some extent ) that these things might cause a lot of mayhem if they fall into the hands of the wrong person, and most of humanity aren’t ready yet for such things and powers judging by the amount conflicts between everyone out there.

But on the other hand I completely disagree…the world is already filled with too much mayhem and it seems that this type of secrets is already at the hands of the wrong people, because you just can never hide things forever there’s always a way to uncover and find out anything ( especially if you consider those who merge with the source, I mean it’s the source lol you can’t hide anything from it ).

Let’s move aside from this collective perspective cause I don’t care much about them these day and talk from a personal point.I don’t wanna adhere to anyone’s else agenda so I can be finally " worthy " of these secrets.
I’m sorry but I don’t really buy into this whole wisdom thing. the way most masters frame what is a wise worthy student and what is an irresponsible dangerous one always seems to be insincere in every way, It’s like it’s all about agendas because you’re not gonna hand out knowledge and power to someone whose goals for the world are different than yours.
That’s the reason why I’m always angry about being denied the access because I just don’t vibe with any master or a gatekeeper out there. we clash hard

So yes I’m willing to take a vow of secrecy and not show off, and I’m willing to respect my teachers but I’m not willing to worship them and be a puppet for their own goals and amusement.

1 Like

And tell me why out of a sudden you replied again to this thread at the same time I looked at your profile while I was surfing a thread you commented on :upside_down_face:

I mean that’s the caveat, though, right?

What God is subservient unto another? AND now I know hierarchies exist in any explanation of the universe, but there is a difference in worship and collaboration.

Every teacher (should) be looking for a student that surpasses them. I work in a place where training of new employees is commonplace, and one of the things I highlight is whether or not the trainee was able to eventually outdo the teacher.

‘Gatekeeping’ for me is kind of an odd topic. I come from a traditionalist family of practitioners, in a rural area of the country where many of our neighbors are distant relatives, and these members of our extended clan (several of these families have lived in the same geographic area since we came over on the boat) are nominally Christian: until they need an abortion, or their sons get in trouble with the Law, or someone is going through a divorce. I was raised in a place where nonprofessional deferment to magical expertise was pro forma et quid pro quo. You require something from a magician you see the magician and defer to their expertise, just like if you needed a wall built, you’d consult a mason, and just like a mason, you pay for it. Members of my family have lived on this business model since we arrived in the United States (then colonies).

I, as an obviously queer child, was taught women’s work (the keeping of a house, gardening, herbalism, the making of medicines, and ‘witchcraft, nominally love spells and glamour’). I was taught the basics of a man’s work (hunting and trapping, husbandry, shooting, geometry and accounting, surveying the land, local politics, how to maintain cash crops, orchardry, and men’s magics- how to ensure the precision of boundaries, the creation/maintenance of wards, the luring of species for hunting or trapping, species maintenance in a given area; transmutation (namely distillation) but also spiritually, grave digging, the maintenance of the dead).

Who knows how long these gender barriers existed among these simple folk. My mother (to this day) makes a majority of her income from legal spell work and women’s care (including abortive services). We’re a hard folk and habits persist.

I left that place when I went to college and discovered magic at large, post-internet, and a million different sources and ingredients and spirits…

I would never pass my personal esoteric specifics outside my bloodline. Magic is what we did, males and females alike, in service of the community. Two of my siblings love in that area and have had numerous children, male and female, to which I’m able to pass whatever I’ve learned outside of our upbringing and help them better there lives: but I also exist in a world where the magus is independent, connected to the whole through the web and able to access names of demons or angels and conjure them at will for pleasure. Where I grew up, magic was familiar in the sense that ‘The Bakers run the Bakery, the Carpenters build houses, the X’s sell dope and pawn and barter, the Spencer’s do the books and the Y’s do the Magic’.

No one (where I grew up) would ever question my authority to withhold information to them or work magic for them to my own ends (and thus to the ends of my family) in the interest of the communal whole, unless that person were blood kin.

I don’t live there anymore, and I doubt a witch worth the title (unless my nieces shape up) will ever reside in that holler again. I’ve no intention of going back, I built a life outside the place.

But to me, Gatekeeping is pro forma, satisfying the caveat that the Magus operates under community service & interest. IF they don’t, well, that’s how you get lynched, drowned or burnt (ask my mother, our house got burnt to the ground (by a biker gang) in 2008 and my mother’s first words to me after were “The dumb motherfuckers didn’t even have sense to chain me to a stake first! They’ll pay for that!” And they did. But she should have done a better job at being a-political and providing a service instead of making the whole thing about what she wanted to do).

1 Like