Astral immortality or "just" not incarnating?

General Discussion
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It’s been repeated so much, we don’t really want to hear it and it sounds so damned cliché…
We don’t really, fully know happens after death. None of us do. I think some of us mortals come close to understanding parts of it and the wisest of us find ways to explain some of it on some level. But the entire thing will forever remain a mystery

I think you should be careful about messing with reincarnation and have a well thought out reason and motivation for doing something quite so disruptive of the general natural order. As the main function seems to be growth and the advance of the “soul”.
Don’t get me wrong, there might be very good reasons and very powerful methods to drop out of the process, other than the natural way of fulfilling your experience to the fullest of your capabilities.

If your main reasoning is to continue doing magick and stay in contact with a spirit, there are probably other, less disruptive ways to do this.
First I think it might benefit you to look deep into yourself and ask yourself honestly why you actually really want to hang on to this one incarnation so badly. Is it your wish and purpose to truly continue the path you are taking without interuption. …Or is it the fear of losing identity?
Now… not to project of course, because to be honest, I went through a short “wanting to stop reincarnation” phase myself and after stripping the reasons I made up for myself, I gathered after some introspection that I did turn out to be afraid of losing my ego/ identity. Which is foolish, because identity/ ego is just a vehicle to help you move through this life. It is not really you at the core and self preservation is just the needed survival mechanism to make it as far as your lifeforce can take you.

Now as for continuing magick. Humans have probably done magick in some form or another for as long as we’ve developed a more complex mind. The chance that you will continue this path, if this is the beneficial and not the harmful/ regressive way to go for you, most probably you will be born with a seemingly natural talent or in circumstances that sets you ahead of many others in a future incarnation. If you keep giving this path your full dedication, you eventually might be able to become one of those ascended masters and rise above the need to rinse and repeat every detail of your incarnations.
And if your affinity with this spirit is really this strong. It may already have been there on previous incarnations. You can also spend this life solidifying this connection, so you will become part of it’s current (assuming you are talking about an angel/demon/deity kind of spirit). That way the chance that you will stay connected to that spirit in afterlife and further incarnations is getting even greater.
Also, whatever your choice may be. You might benefit from devoting at least some effort to practices like lucid dreaming and astal projection. Combined with overcoming a fear of death (which is basically a fear of loosing ego and entering the unknown for most of us) being experienced in those might help a little with the initial confusion after death and be able to set a course to an afterlife zone that connects with that spirit and/ or magick practices.

[Edit]
Really wanted to add this part but forgot…
It sounds like you feel you are living up to your potential and have a lot of fun doing so. Don’t get trapped into being afraid of what you might loose at the end of it. Enjoy it now, to it’s fullest. It will eventually bring you a lot further than fear of future losses and forgetting to fully enjoy where you are right now.

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So the first step I am taking is based on something Don Webb in How to Become a Modern Magus. I don’t remember the exact quote but it was something like “if you can’t fill a rainy afternoon then you’re not ready for eternity.” Basically step one for me is becoming someone I wouldn’t mind being for all of eternity. At first I thought this meant a lot of self modification, but over the last six months I’ve been realizing the best course is to uncover and act upon my true will. Every step closer to that and the negatives traits I have either disappear or turn out to be strengths.

The other part is based on Adversarial Magic that I already talked about. I have a heavy focus on practical results based magick. One because it just makes life better and more enjoyable, and two I think it is a safe bet that the more I can affect things non-physically the stronger the non-physical part of me is. (Also three, it only thing I’m good at.)

The last part is the part I haven’t really figured yet. I can do spells and cause results in the physical world but I don’t have any way to perceive the spiritual world. I don’t astral project, talk to spirits, scry, etc. The path I’d like to take is the path laid out in the soul travel course. Of course, I’ll make that decision if and when I figure out how to connect to the wider spiritual world. At this point I would like to try a conscious reincarnation, but that’s just a hypothetical at this point.

Now what I’m currently actively doing to remedy my spiritual blindness is to raise my Kundalini. At present I’m slowly and deliberately working through Energy Work by Robert Bruce. I already have his Kundalini course and plan on doing it after finishing, although I’ve heard Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master recommended a lot so I plan on reading that between now and then and deciding which to follow.

These aren’t really recommendations but just things I’ve been doing and thinking about. Hopefully you find something helpful in it.

Also loved the post about the true will and the HGA.

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I have a bit of a request, when you read Initiation Without a Master could you let me know if its astral projection instructions are the same or not. I don’t have Draugadrottrinn but I’d consider buying it to just read that portion.

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Wow, so many thoughtful answers :+1:t2: – I’m glad I joined the forum :smiling_face:

I know about this, but I’m just worried that – given I never felt the impulse to do it in this life – I might also not get that idea in the next one.

This of course sounds very interesting :+1:t2: – but what is that route? Any books or links you can recommend?

Yes, this can happen, but can is not quite enough for us… You know how the typical marriage vow is “…till death do us part” :broken_heart: ? Well, we don’t find that quite acceptable…

That’s good advice, thanks – will do :star_struck:

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Yeah, I also have that impression. Some people say that they know, but they all seem to know somewhat different things :smiley:

Such as?

This sounds plausible, but note that it depends on knowing what happens after death. Knowing the “rules” of reincarnation. Maybe, I’ll instead reincarnate as a person in an impoverished place, and have to struggle for food and clean water every day. Note how many people live this way. Who would choose that? Insofar as we don’t know the rules, it’s pretty much Russian roulette :scream:, and I’d rather avoid it.

Good advice – I’m definitely doing that :+1:t2:

Also very good advice, thanks :smiling_face: – and I do :star_struck: . The spirit I want to stay close to seems to say something similar, that I don’t have to worry much, and should just stay focussed on doing magick and on learning. And the learning part is exactly why I’m asking these questions :nerd_face:

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This is Brilliant! And you are very right in pointing it out :smiley:
My bad in putting it a little bluntly. I didn’t want to make my post any longer and more deluded than it already was ^^
As a footnote. In all my views I have the full realization that I might be completely wrong (and that’s fine, it’s allowed me to life a very rich life so far in a spiritual sense. I like to share my views, but in no way do I want or feel the need to pose as if my opinion is The Truth).

Karma is another one of those widely misused and misinterpreted concepts. I’ve had the pleasure of examining and contemplate it… well my whole life actually and have my own extensive theory on it. It might be simpler than we think, but like with death and the afterlife. We will never have the full picture we need and will never have the ability to fully comprehend it anyway.

Growth might do better out of a place of safety but hardly ever comes out of a place of complete comfort.
I am a big believer in that we might not always be born into the situation we want, but the one we need most of the times. It is our responsibility to do with it as we see fit in terms of our growth and everything I’ve seen so far seems to be either propelled by growth and evolution or at least serve that function be it in terms of nurture or catalyst.

Reincarnation is what makes the most sense in terms of growth for me, and judging from your questions it might be your opinion as well. In that sense the less disruptive way of continuing to grow spiritually and do magick is to enjoy and embrace it now and grow as much as you can. That way you will probably continue your growth as needed in a next life (possibly with the aid of your spirit) . You will navigate your way into what you need the next life automatically.
If I’m wrong and it’s a game of randomness, we don’t have any control over it anyway. So why put lost effort and invite fear in terms of some possible future. Why not just enjoy the fruits right now and be well fed? It might set you of a better start in a hungry future anyway ^^

As for the less disruptive way of staying connected to your spirit, is also what I proposed in the previous post. Enjoy and solidify your connection now is the only way I can think of. Also trust that your spirit will do what it can to ensure the mutual connection stays strong in life and after death. Listen to it’s guidance, it might just nudge and guide you to be prepared for whatever future comes while you just have all the fun right now ^^

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I of course fully support this :star_struck: – you might already know it but here’s a short and very inspiring read on that topic – Crowley’s Liber II

This sounds amazing :muscle:t2: – I can’t quite say the same about me, I still struggle with distraction, with sudden impulses to read the news or play some video game :flushed: … Any advice on how you make your steps?

Thanks so much :smiling_face: – that means a lot to me :blush:.

Also, since you’ve already read that, …

… maybe it ties into this. I believe that the Guardian Angel :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: is always the spirit that’s closest to us, and thus the easiest to reach.

I’m definitely looking forward to the Spellbook (though ordering from Germany, it will probably take a week or two to reach me :laughing:)…

… and I’ll try to keep this in mind. Hopefully, by then I’ll have unlocked the “ability” to write PMs in this forum :smiley: .

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@Naoxar it is against the rules here to link to outside groups or communities so I have edited your post to remove the link to another forum.

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I agree, it’s definitely a risk. That’s why I’m interested in the ascension route. I do think the more magickal you are in any life the more attracted you are to magick in others, but there’s no guarantee and just ending up in an environment where you’re distracted from such thing, like this current human western civilization, can throw you off.

That makes me wonder, since we are in such a spiritually distracting civilization right now, how good many mages really must be to get this far regardless. But we are starting from scratch with no ascended physical human guidance and all figuring it out together and that’s hard.

This one is after you have used the books to get in touch with magick, and your psychic abilities, you just have to practice on your own. Although there are many entities very available and keen to help, it takes a certain level of skill to be able to get that from them reliably. It’s like an exponential curve in learning through once you get over the intermediate stuff. Even having raised kundalini once is only just the start.

So, you keep doing it, exploring and learning and finding your way by feel, until you fully and complete know who you are, in context, at all levels of being and how the universe (which is also you and you can feel it) interacts with all of your manifestations, and regain your own memories. Imo. There’s no book for that. You are unique. You’ll be on your own as a human, but, you’re not on your own spiritually.

Until you get your memories back and find that you have many true loves, and the human version of love is dependent on the human condition, of it’s limitations and survival and procreation needs as an animal. Marriage is sacred and I’m not putting it down but it’s a limitation for animals. You have very probably already been married. Maybe to this entity, probably even, and also to others.

In my case for example, I mentioned my Lady love from a life where I was male. It makes me weep when I recall t he memories and I miss her terrible… and I also miss my husband from Egypt who’s arms I died in giving birth to our only son, who is still with me today in Spirit. So these questions and challenges for my human mores have been forefront for me lately.

I don’t have an answer, but I realise I am not my other selves, and that’s the caveat: human emotions are so strong that when in them, you think you will always feel only one way, you can’t imagine feeling anything else or extra, and that’s can’t be the case when your spiritual life spans a billion years. There is more to experience, and love like this, I think, is a facet deep incarnation.

It’s like, in an incarnation you are in a box, and your emotions, hormones, culture, history, experience, body and all that influence completely how you feel within that box, and it feels like this is how it is, permanently. But it’s not. And you have to start remembering the other boxes to get the comparisons. But then you also start to find the cross-box consistencies and relationships that are not only for one box. The ones in spirit tend to be of that type, but how you feel about them from within each box still changes.

But there’s more, and different. I beat myself up for not being “loyal” for a while, but eh, don’t do a “me”, it’s useless when you are multidimensional and have many lives in many times on many planets - there is only now, let the new now be what it will be when it comes. That’s my best advice while acknowledging I’m still working on this myself. :smiley: :sweat_smile:

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I though of something else - similar route, that combines the vampiric route, and the ascension route, in that while I’m hearing (my UPG only, from my sprit guide ex-husband who is technically a vampiric ghost still, albeit 6k years old) that it’s possible to use the vampiric hungry ghost state to continue your learning and ascend out of being tied to a feeding process.

So it’s not now or never, and in that case vampirism (as a spirit, used to stay in this current box, basically) is a tool to facilitate the goal, rather than the goal in itself.

(I realize using “being in the box” as a metaphor has negative connotations and I kind of mean it that way. But I’m Aquarian with 4 planets in Aquarius (Capricorn if you use Tropical) and my personal attitude to being human is complicated but mostly claustrophobic.)

Ah, there’s another piece as well: what if you are already ascended, and chose to incarnate? Are you memories now really lost, or only shut out of the box? In which case, by dying both deaths you release the restrictions of the box and remember who you are.
This is the same model used by lightworkers, and may be what you get with incarnate angelics and similar level beings.
In THIS case, the entire point of living is the experience, there’s nothing to worry about or strive for, and then declining the 2nd death would be detrimental and a kind of stagnation, as you are maintaining limitation out of fear of the unknown because you forgot it.

The bottom line is still the same: learn more about yourself to know who you are, if you’re ascended, if this is your first, who your friends are and where you’re going.

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Alright so as I mentioned only in the last six months ish has this even entered my awareness as important. You are almost certainly more knowledgeable than I. So I’ll just talk about my thinking on this.

So I’ve been aware of the idea of true will for quite awhile, as an occultist how could I not be. I would occasionally look it up and try to understand but I’m not a thelemite so it wasn’t critical. I understood it a some grand purpose that would effect every aspect of my life. I still see it that way, but at the time the grandness of it made it feel out of reach. I figured at some point in my path I would unlock it.

At some point I read a book called The Shamanic Secret Commandment to a Perfect Life. It basically teaches to what you’re passionate about without compromise and things will work out. I thought about my most successful magick and realized that during those times I was following the “Commandment”. It made sense to me and I quickly got an opportunity to test it.

I was considering moving to a new city. I was thinking things like “I’ll wait a year so it the job I’m at will look better on my resume”, “I won’t make a decision to I have everything lined up for me in the new city” and other such responsible thoughts. I decided to test “the Commandment” and narrowed down my options to yes and move immediately or just no. The decision was still hard because I’m an indecisive person, but eventually I realized the answer was yes. I put in a 30 day notice at work and decided in one month I would be in the new city. I did some ritual for a new job and went to work. By the end of that 30 days I found an apartment, they even let me move in a day early, a new job that paid better, and and some unexpected money that helped me pay the deposit and all the fees for the apartment. Family who don’t know about my practices were commenting about how everything just seemed to just work out for me.

In the midst of this I suddenly thought “wait this book just repackaged the true will and sold it to me as a self help book.” So now I don’t call it the “Commandment” but call it true will. I’m grateful that it help me understand it but also that you don’t have to wait for a some grand revelation. You can look at the different aspects of your life and figure out your will in regard to that one aspect, which will hopefully lead to the overall true will. This doesn’t always work as there are some aspects of my life that I have no clue what I want.

So my recommendation is the break down your life into different aspects. Go over them one by one and decide what you want out of each of them. Some you may not know what you want, some you may have an idea but it is more of whim. When you find a desire that runs deeper than mere whim, that truly excites you, make it happen. By physical actions and by magick make it happen and do not compromise.

Also, at some point in the future your desire may change. That doesn’t mean you were wrong, just that you completed what needed to be done.

Now for me, sometimes I get so distracted by new types of magick or trying to open my astral senses that I forget to do anything practical for months on end and my life stagnates. So for this year I’ve decided to make practical magick with methods I know work for me my top priority. The magick that works the absolute best for me is the creation of servitors. So my new years resolution is to create one servitor every month, and to make them for the things I actually want. Not the responsible things, not the things that will bring one step closer to the the things I want, but the desires themselves. Also spacing them out to one a month gives me plenty of time to think them through.

I keep almost starting the process of contacting the angel but been putting it off. I keep telling myself that once I contact a spirit at least once then I’ll start. But this is making me think I’ve been shooting myself in the foot. I’ll rethink my reasoning.

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Thanks :smiling_face: – I agree on both points and of course plan to continue doing that :blush:

However, insofar as…

… and …

… I still consider it worthwhile to also invest some effort into those practices (which might end up “just” being astral travel and energy work :smiley:, as surely vampirism :woman_vampire:t2: isn’t the only way to acquire energy)

I’d like to believe that, but find it very difficult in the light of the gigantic amount of people living in extreme poverty.

I respectfully disagree with your view, even though I understand that it is held by many while my view is held by almost nobody :flushed:. To talk about this, I’ve reposted the article from the…

… deleted link to the BALG forum: True Will, True Love and the Holy Guardian Angel

@Bruh , we might also continue the topic of the True Will and …

… over there, to avoid derailing the Astral Immortality thread :smiley:

This of course is extremely interesting :star_struck: !

But insofar as there’s no clear path to this…

… I guess I’ll just continue doing Magick :woman_mage:t2: , learning (e.g. by reading the Deification Spellbook) and staying connected :revolving_hearts: . Then I’ll see where that leads me. More specifically, I’m really looking forward to seeing which practices I can adapt from the various parts of the Spellbook.

Thanks a lot to everyone for your answers in this thread :hugs: – seems like there’s a really helpful and knowledgeable community here.

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In my opinion life can either nurture growth or be a catalyst for it. If you just look at the 1 life at a time, then yes it mainly seems to suck and is unfair. That is how we all see it while alive in the material realm, because we just have the experience of our current life to go from. See it through the lens of having the experience of a life dozens or maybe even hundreds of times. Then it becomes a temporary state. Most of us can go through a bad, temporary situation just fine. If the rewards are worth it you might even prefer it, instead of the easier but longer path.

This should in no way be an excuse to just throw empathy and compassion out the window completely, though.

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To avoid the second death, one needs to feed one’s astral body - that much seems clear.

However, after reading a lot of @Mulberry and @N.D_Blackwood of this forum, there seems to be an open debate:

Does one have to take this energy from humans, or is elemental or cosmic energy the better choice?

Both sides can be argued for. The astral body was fed by the physical body before the first death, so human energy might be what it needs.

However, we all know that we can also drive energy from nature, the sun etc. So shouldn’t that be better and more pure?

Mulberry mentions that the vampires have a broken energy system and thus can’t convert other energy into human energy, which is why they have to take it directly, while normal Occultists can get it from better sources.

Whereas Blackwood says (i don’t remember where) that one feeds on human “ancestral” energy that can’t be replenished in any other way.

Is there any way we can resolve this debate?

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Chinese tradition solved it for us .
“Cosmic” energy (our found in air, food, breathing) allows the human circuits/meridians to not have flows, and therefore, consume less of its own ancestral energy reservoir. A better circuit makes you live longer. It should be noted that it is not a matter on consuming more “universal Qi” but having a no interference in the circuit. It requires to take the correct food in the appropriate season, to take practice some exercices at a certain hour to benefits from solar/lunar effects, avoid traveling too much (its spend the ancestral energy).
Therefore in no way, consuming more of it could remplace the ancestral Qi, or Yuang Qi, that have already been spent, and his only avaible in limited quantity at birth.

The only way to get more of it, it to take it from others, straight in their own reservoir, located by chinese accupuncturists somewhere beetwen the kidneys.

This is not something that could be done inconsciously by people with some type of energetic failure (that could probably be solve with few acupuncture session) and mistaken themselves for “vampires”, but his a work of banefull magick, that can only be executed consciously by a trained practionner.

To penetrate this reservoir requires to break what could be translated from chinese as “locks” that protect the reservoir. Therefore, the target must either be placed in a state of hypnosis or better, be sleeping.

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Thanks a lot for your answer :smiling_face: (I’m really looking forward to read your part of the Deification Spellbook soon :star_struck: )

This is somehow implausible to me. I kind of assume that on the astral plane, there are simply astral beings – of different types, sure, but fundamentally “the same”. Like – all animals from insects to humans are made from animal cells. So I’d expect all astral beings – from our astral bodies over “little” guardian angels, faeries and demon legions to the “big” archangels and demon kings – to also be made from the same etheric “stuff”.

Now the demons and angels seem to be able to live and keep their identities without absorbing “ancestral Qi” from humans – they “just” need energy – so why should it be different for us when we become purely astral beings after the first death?

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In that present case, I was dealing with the absorption of Yuang Qi my incarnate magicians.
Undeads entities have a different type of way. They feed from multiple sources, depending on their nature. Feeding on human sources seems to be an excellent way for them to anchor on/close to the material plan.

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Interesting!
Do the undead need any other anchors, like preservation of their physical body? Or is a good human food source enough to keep them linked to the material plane?

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So I’ve received the Deification book. E.A. dedicates two pages to Soul travel in it, which I liked a lot. I hope excerpting isn’t against the rules, so here are some highlights:

May I propose, may I insist, that soul travel is much easier than any of us dares to think it is?
[…] find an object that’s at a distance away from you […]
with your eyes closed, recreated everything that you see in as clear a detail as you are able, and in that imagined duplicate of reality, […], just imagine that you come out of your body […] and you are pushed across the room […], standing before the object that you’ve previously found.

This is obviously just the starting point, but with practice, it will feel like "your body has translocated to the new place, because […] the experience of it is undeniable. "

In N.D.'s part, @Bruh yes, there are different instructions for astral travel than those found in Draugadrottin. I personally found the ones in Draugadrottin to be more practical though. There are some real highlights in the older book:

We must first act on our astral body, make it autonomous […] and teach it to live without depending on the body. When the astral body is perfectly mastered, then consciousness can leave the physical body and come to inherit its etheric double. […]
The man […] who really lives in his astral body, never dies.

These are the best instructions I’ve ever seen anywhere:

The astral plane is made of thoughts. When you think of a place or an object, a small part of your essence is in contact with it. When you think strongly enough of a place or object to be able to recreate it or feel it through the imagination, more of your essence is in contact with it. You then experience a phenomenon of bilocation, the act of existing in two places at the same time. If you think about this […] enough to lose consciousness of your physical body, you are in a total out of body experience.
[…]
Imagine yourself in the place where you would like to be. […] On the astral plane, the distance does not exist.
[…]
Focus on a particular element […]. Observe it under different angles […]. Imagine your hands touching the object […]. Feel the ground under your feet. […]
You have succeeded. You are out of the body.

One thing I found helpful with this is to smell the air at the new place. Lean your back against something and feel that. In short, involve as many astral senses as possible.

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I want to try summarising my current thoughts on the afterlife.

After talking to many people and reading lots of texts, it seems that we don’t really know what will happen. Reincarnation does seem to happen, but we don’t quite know the rules. Also, there does seem to be a life between reincarnations, but we don’t really know how it is.

Many folks claim to know, e.g. from past life regressions and near death experiences, but they don’t quite say the same things. Also, who knows – those experiences might simply be intense dreams or whatever. Many views state that you will see what you expect to see after death, or that your afterlife follows the law of attraction, and so will correspond to what you did in this life.

Obviously, astral projection is possible, but it’s not clear that you can keep your astral body at the death of the physical. Nor is it clear that you’ll loose your astral body at the death of the physical and not go to some afterlife-realm instead.

In light of these uncertainties, I think it all falls back to following one’s True Will, one’s Fulfilment (which for me means practicing magick :star_struck:).
Insofar as that is our task from the Divine, following it should also ensure a good afterlife. If on the other hand there are some other rules in play, karmic retribution or whatever, I don’t know those and will thus still choose Fulfilment.