Angelic magick works for me, demonic magick never does. Any idea why?

My go-to grimoires are both from the Gallery of Magick: “72 Angels of Magick” by Damon Brand and “Demons of Magick” by Gordon Winterfield. In essence, they are simplified and modernised grimoires that call on the 72 angels of the Shem-Ha-Mephorash and the 72 “demons” of Goetia.

Angelic magick has always proven very effective, I have been practicing it for years now and the results have been pretty consistent. I can easily perceive the contact and overall the rituals happen very naturally and easily.

The Goetic workings, on the other hand, have always fallen flat despite repeated study of the grimoire and multiple attempts. I managed to establish some contact, but it has always been confused and unclear. None of the workings I did ever yielded the results I sought.

Could it be that demonic magick simply doesn’t work for me?


I’d imagine you might have more of an alignment to angels over demons.


Hi. Seems your post could use some interaction as much as I need a chat on the matter myself, so i"ll get both matters done ‘two birds one stone’ style.

The issue I’m facing right now actually hits right on the nose of the matter. I’ve studied and tried to practice Goetic magick, but that was to no avail. Hired different magicians for the same goal and still havent seen any results either.

As of now, Im feeling out the angel stuff. Just minor reading for now. But I’d like if someone can help me with this because its in regards to an urgent dilemma.


I guess. Does that mean I should focus on angelic magick, or perhaps practice harder with demonic magick to compensate for my disposition? Thanks!

Some people just vibe better with one or the other, the same way some people have an innate talent for art or mathematics.

Have you tried a form of Goetic magick that doesn’t include the Shem angels? It’s possible the method itself is causing the interference.


Some people just vibe better with one or the other, the same way some people have an innate talent for art or mathematics.

It definitely feels like it, the difference in the quality of contact is just too sharp!

Have you tried a form of Goetic magick that doesn’t include the Shem angels? It’s possible the method itself is causing the interference.

That’s a very interesting point, thank you! The method itself doesn’t seem to emphasise the angelic element too strongly, and it seems many others got amazing results from it. However, it may well be that the method causes interference for me specifically! Really thought provoking, thank you so much!

Either one works I guess. You could work on your strengths for a time, then go into your weaknesses later when you feel skilled enough.

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You know what, now that I think of it… I think something similar happened to me.

I always get results, even if soft or mild, from Damon Brand’s books, but rarely from Gordon Winterfield’s. It’s literally rare and always surprises me the few times I get any results from the latter author’s books. GoM clearly knows their craft, so they’re not the problem here. Either there’s something I’m missing, or something I’m doing wrong.

I was thinking of working with the 72 Angels book again for some petitions, but I really don’t want to invest so many days and then wait (because Angels always take much longer to deliver in my experience). They also can’t be made all at once… you gotta invest 11 days for one petition, then 11 days for another… so if I want to take advantage of some beneficial astrological transit, I can’t, I’m stuck wasting time for 11 days for each petition.

So instead I used and combined the Words of Power and the Sigils of Power books.

When I nail the emotional transmutation right, it always works. But with Winterfield’s work, even if I nail it, 70% of the time I don’t see results. I’m clearly doing something wrong because the author seems brilliant and knowledgeable in his insights.

Angels of Wrath in particular has me frustrated because it has so much potential, but I just can’t seem to make it work. Tried The Stillness time and time again, but by the time I get to the actual rituals, I’m so calmed that the feelings of wrath I have to use to fuel the ritual itself are GONE, and those are feelings I need to make them work…

I’m not sure if there’s a better or worse disposition towards Angels or Demons that affects the results. I made an experiment long ago calling upon Leraje without the Shem Angels, just doing it my way (old-school: candles, incense, etc), and all I got without protection was a momentary scare and no results for my petition in the end. Haven’t tried again since, and I imagine the scare could be worse with Demons such as Andras, Glasya-Labolas, Raum, etc.


I’m the opposite, could never get any connection with the angels and hardly got much results , but with Demons on the other hand I feel strong connection and the request is fulfilled most of the times, sometimes even without a ritual just by verbally asking .
I don’t know the reason either maybe your energy aligns with the angels better and mine with demons !


Not everyone has the same experiences with the same spirits. It’s the same with forms of magick. Some people get good results from the Law of Attraction or Law of Assumption and others simply don’t get any results from it no matter how hard they try or how much they do. Your nature may he contrary to the nature of Demons, or the lack of success may be due to some other cause.


there is also Ben Woodcroft for angel magic.

I am kinda the opposite of you🤠. Ahriman, the spider queen, Lucifer, and a few djinn all made visits the first time I read about them, but I haven’t noticed any angel visits… maybe they will come on another day

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Very interesting, many thanks for your reply!

I would say our experiences are similar, since I also got pretty convincing results from Brand’s Magickal Riches, but my results with Winterfield’s Angels of Wrath have always been, at best, quite modest.

Once I discovered just how effective 72 Angels of Magick is for me, I got perhaps too absorbed in refining my use of it, and left other grimoires to the side for a long time. I must admit that I am not a fan of the 11 days commitment either, and often only perform the ritual only once or twice on consecutive days. However, I get the point of the 11 days requirement, experience has convinced me that it really allows your emotions and intentions to develop and mature as you express them and go through the emotional alchemy. As a result, I put in the effort when petitions are important, and in general spend quite a lot of time crafting my petition. I would say that for ideal results you should really take the time and become very emotionally involved in the whole process and especially the rituals. However, this can be very difficult because of how much time and energy it takes, and as the days go on it is quite normal to get pretty desensitised and unable to raise such strong emotions on command. I would say that performing the ritual even just once but with a strong commitment and involvement, both intentional and emotional, can yield astonishing results.
I would say that emotional trasmutation or emotional alchemy is really the key to this strand of Brand’s methods, and you pointed out yourself that when you get it right then it always works
[I guess this is my field guide to this ritual. To whoever reads this, I hope this helps you and brings you happiness.]

If I may ask, what’s your experience with Words of Power? I really struggle with pronouncing words whose meaning I do not know and expecting results, so I am yet to buy it. It’s pretty ridiculous to have a hang-up about “magic words” when I regularly call on entities I can only “feel”. Actually, do you experience anything when you use the words of power, some kind of sensation comparable to what many feel when calling on the angels?
Moreover, if I am not mistaken, the power of the construction and sound of mystical words is a core principle of practical kabbala, which (again, if I am not mistaken) is the strand of magick from which the Shem Ha Mephorash itself originates. So yeah, I see it as a pretty silly hang-up, and I am trying to fight it.
My biggest gripe really is that Brand really does not explain the meaning of the words and the sigils he uses; I only found one instance where he does. I am told that in Words of Power there is a chapter on the meaning of the words which is…unhelpful. The only way I managed to work around this is pour quite a lot of time in researching whatever I am instructed to say, and it turns out that most if not all of it is really solid and amazing kabbalistic material. His sigil to call on Raziel which appears in Magickal Riches was very hard to unpack since I lack an understanding of Hebrew and of the methods of kabbalistic amulet construction. But once I managed, I realised just how beautiful and powerful it is. Same applies to other sigils from him, and in general whenever I call on Shem angels I recite the relevant psalm verses both in Hebrew and in translation.
So yeah, I really wish Brand explained what he does, the meaning of the words he uses, because studying it really convinced me of how solid his work is. His sources certainly are.

As for keeping up the emotions during a ritual, especially in Angels of Wrath when you are supposed to enflame yourself in anger and then use the Stillness ritual, I would say that it is not exaclty essential. My reasoning is that, if Brand allows people that struggle with visualisation or perception to state that they are seeing/experiencing something and then simply carry on, then perhaps awareness and intention are more than enough. The exception to this is perhaps if you need to imagine/act a transmutation from one emotion to another, since emotional transmutation is crucial to these rituals. However, in that case I would still maintain that you don’t need to torture yourself to try and maintain an emotion for a long time: emotions naturally dissipate. Conjure it up again and continue with the ritual as needed. There is a fertile margin of error, and rituals in general do not need to be perfect. On the contrary, when emotional transmutation is involved, sometimes I find that raw brutal chaotic emotional honesty helps more than a perfectly choreographed petition. The angels listen and act, and emotion seems to be their language, at least when communicating with us.

As for the goetics and other spirits from other systems, especially demonic ones, I guess I will let the matter rest once again. If my petition happens to be answered, I will not seek to determine if it was goetic intervention and simply pay what little I promised.
So far, the best explanation has been that I am perhaps more attuned with angelic beings and/or, even more convincingly, with the symbolism of the Shem Ha Mephorash. It just clicks for me, and I should well be grateful for it and cultivate this inclination.


I like the second WoP book (Greater WoP) more than the first, and actually most of the words are Angel names and God names (Adonai, Elohim, etc). I noticed the order of the words usually goes from highest ranking (God) to lowest ranking (though not “low” itself, because none of these entities are “low” at all). So it’s like they’re named in hierarchy, as if you said: “Owner, Boss, Supervisor, Manager, Employee, etc.” It makes sense that the “Employee” will listen to you because you already spoke to the “Manager,” and the “Manager” will listen because you already spoke to the “Supervisor,” and so on, and so on.

So the WoP are actually just names ordered in hierarchy (perhaps the books could be more accurately named Calls of Power, since they’re actually callings). The same thing happens in most of Damon Brand’s books and rituals, except for some parts where he states it’s Psalms in Hebrew and you don’t really need to know what you’re saying since Hebrew is a magical language in itself anyway, and scanning + pronouncing is enough to activate them as some sort of “passwords” to establish communication to these spirits.

Yes, whether we can do the emotional transmutation or not is definitely what can make or break these rituals. Usually, when I can’t nail it (especially if they’re days-long rituals), I just say my intention out loud, but it’s just not effective without the emotional transmutation itself :woman_facepalming: it’s frustrating.

I just remembered I had terrible results from Zanna Blaise’s 72 Sigils of Power book. I remember a couple of rituals were not effective, and another straight up backfired… and it was a ritual to experience joy! It’s not like I asked for a million dollars! Just joy! I had some really awful days after doing that one… haven’t touched the book since and I’m even afraid of doing it :woman_shrugging:

It’s like I don’t 100% trust GoM books anymore because a few times their rituals go the way I want (softly, no radical results), most of the time nothing happens, and a few times they even backfired.

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My results are exactly the opposite. I do not get along with angels AT ALL. Demons on the other hand are ready to go when i call them and they readily show me their hand.

I’m thinking you’re probably a christian by nature.

There’s also the fact that the GoM is basically christian kabbalism. Their goetic method is not true goety. They call on angels and then bind the goetic spirits, which goets do not appreciate. Gordon is wrong in saying the goetic spirits behave better when you bind them under shemhamphorash angels. I’ve gotten my best results with goetic spirits when i called them with NO angels AT ALL.

Last year i wrote a conjuration to the goets that called them under the 7 Qlipothic Demons that worked pretty well. I wrote a take on Liber V vel Reguli that felt like it had real promise for calling goetic/demonic forces. Upon close study i realized that the ritual of the Hexagram is almost entirely demonic spirits with no angel forces called at all. I’m currently working on a rewrite of Liber Samekh which calls goets under the 4 Demonic Kings for my own use. In all cases, getting the angels out of the way seems to free up the energy for me, it’s purer and works a lot faster.

Finally and to my surprise, calling on the Greek spirits works even faster than the goetic calls. For me, the further i get from judeochristianity the better magick seems to work. for you maybe it’s the opposite, the more churchlike you get the more angels hear you. To each their own i guess.


There’s absolutely nothing Christian about GoM’s work. No mentions of the Catholic Messiah (Christ, Jesus, etc). Judaism and Christianism are not the same.

The author states it’s not a binding, but a sort of cooperative teamwork. It makes sense because there are 72 Angels + 72 Demons. They correspond to each other like two sides of the same coin.

The idea is similar to Henry Archer’s The Magick of Angels and Demons book.

Angels got nothing to do with “the church.”

That being said, the DoM book rarely worked for me. The method for ritual 1 is missing something. I use the book as a sort of dictionary at this point, but that’s all.


According to you do Angels deliver fast?

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I started off with angelic magic and Damon Brand and I have to say it worked for me 95%of the time with absolutely gob smacking results
But discovered the angels were quite happy to steal off people on my behalf and as I was brought up in a severely christian enviroment it did not seem right at all so i switched to demonic magic and discovered that when you ask for something they will arrange it but you have to do a fair amount of work to bring it about which seems more reasonable Happy Magick

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I suggest you completely drop the book for a while and focus on other magick. Come back to it after a few months. That’s what the Gallery suggests as well on their blog.

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Angels are like cosmic EMS, you call with sincerity and they respond though in some really weird ways most the time. They can take a long time to finish their work as well. Rushing interrupts things and sets it back further.

Demons are like a mafia boss. You have to compel them to do your bidding and they’re all about the details so there’s some nuance


Thank you so much for sharing your experience with DB’s Words of Power books, it was incredibly helpful! I bought the books and started reading them, and I am finding it very interesting! I laugh in embarrassment at my own prejudices, but I realised that I developed the insights required to understand this kind of work only recently. Thank you!

Emotional transmutation is surprisingly difficult, please don’t be harsh on yourself. You’d think that perceiving one’s current feelings and imagining what one hopes to feel is the easiest thing, and yet doing it at will during a complicated ritual is quite frustrating. Speaking your intention is a very good alternative, Brand himself suggests to do so if you struggle with visualisation or emotional transmutation. One thing that really helps me is that you are supposed to talk to the angels rather than at them, assuming or imagining that they are there and listen to you. For me at least, talking through my feelings and intentions helps greatly with this central yet very tricky step of the ritual.

I am sorry to hear of your negative experiences with GoM books, particularly Zanna Blaise’s 72 Sigils of Power. I own that book but I never used it, even though it utilises the same 72 Names of God of the Shem Ha Mephorash. I always found the book’s method a bit too abstract for me (as it was for the words of power); I guess I am more attuned to approaching the 72 Names as angels or entities. I will definitely look into it at some point, especially now that I am delving into the words of power.

Thank you!!

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