What are your views on inducing bad karma for yourself if do vengeance rituals? Think about this view;
If you’re e.g. being bullied by someone, well instead of feeling angry, frustrated and powerless and using a Demon to hurt them, maybe consider why you are being bullied in the first place. That is, you’re being bullied etc because you must’ve done something similar to someone, sometime in the past. That is, you have karmic debts to pay off.
Therefore, you getting ‘revenge’ via magick doesn’t get rid of your initial karmic debts that you were unconsciously paying off by bulling bullied. That is, your karmic debts are still there after you get revenge.
This come up now and then on here, and over the years, while I can see the energy that some people label as karma, it’s more just patterns of energy set in motion playing out.
Energy can be changed, therefore karma is not only mostly self-created, it’s optional, and when imposed by others it’s a form of curse. So if you can hex break, and you can do energy working, you can read those energy flows and resolve the issues they are causing.
Also see various other ways to put it and others opinions:
As far as vengeance goes, my feeling is that that itself is then in response to your perceptions of these energy flows, and you are responding to their negative effects on you - it’s probably that then YOU are the instrument of “karma” returning to the perpetrators, and that is well in balance, and it is your right to participate.
Performing a vengeance ritual is then one way of extracting yourself from and balancing that little tangle of energy that you are caught in, if not resolving it entirely. It’s not the only way, but if that’s the one you are drawn to, it’s for a reason. I’m not fond of those who deny and nihilate human emotions as invalid when they are very much a part of the whole system and the design is like that for good reasons too. Some people have to learn the hard way.
Bullies are just predators. They feed on your emotional reactions such as anger, sadness and insult because they are empty inside or frustrated OR of course also that you have destroyed them in an argument. They have zero power over stoic people. What bullies fear must is power that causes people to admire or fear you. There is a reason why the crocodile don’t dare to go after the the hippo…
I don’t see it as the Great Equalizer or as a force for justice. I think of it more of a force linked to cause and effect with the function of evolution.
So in my view the karmic reason for being bullied specifically can have an endless number of reasons, apart from the “have bullied and now have to be bullied” mechanism. It might even be a mere byproduct. Like the reason might be that by pissing you off. The revenge is meant to be the catalyst (or at least one of 'm) for the bully to learn the possible consequences of bullying, for instance.
So you could be absolutely right in some circumstances, but in others the “debt” might’ve been paid off. It’s near impossible for us to see the big picture, in my opinion.
I personally limit baneful work to people who hurt me deeply but I don’t believe in karma anymore. I just think of all those people who literally curse for a living, how come they are not affected by karma? Along with the fact that all those assholes of the world almost never suffer for their actions.
Who says they won’t?
We usually only view cause and effect in the span of one lifetime. That also means we don’t see the result and what it means in the long run.
When you consider the saying “diamonds are made under exteme pressure”. An easy life with little consequences also means little growth and they might be stuck in the wheel of reincarnation longer than the person who has a hard life and had to fight for anything remotely positive.
Like I said before, it’s extremely hard to see the big picture.
Do you mean it’s energy sent out…it bounces back to the one who sent it out?
What you said about bully’s energy being a curse…you mean it’s a magical curse and therefore our baneful magick against them is actually self-protection?
…but such lying controlling priests would reincarnate as one of the lower caste as karmic punishment.
No. I mean it’s more like you’re swimming in an ocean on energy. It’s full of currents, swirling and mixing around. It’s not as simple as distinct packets being “sent” anywhere. In qigong the analogy of water is used for energy a lot because it isn’t possible to work with it well if you try to encapsulate it and pin it down, it flows, mixes, changes in both quality and intensity and volume all the time. It’s complex like the ocean is complex, and there’s also things living in it that can cause unexpected changes.
So if you have an energetic relationship with another, you have a current between you. That current is not a one and done - your and their emotions for the most part - because emotions are the vehicle by which humans make decisions and have desires - mind and body are constantly generating the relationship. You want revenge because of your emotions contributing to maintaining that connecting current. The event in the past that cause these emotions is long gone, but the effects are still in your mental, emotional and qi (and maybe physical) bodies maintaining the relationship.
So you have components that are facets of your very being, little energy nodules you didn’t get rid of but could if you wanted - as they are what you HAVE not who you are - and that generates influence via the energy currents between you - “sent out”.
Magick IS energy. If that current is harmful to your being, that is pretty much how curses work. I would call it an “imbalance” better - a disregulation in your emotional body, and therefore I would remove the nodule of unpleasant energy, which stops it generating ill will as a current of energy towards the others, and I would feel better that way. I would forget the target ever existed really.
To be honest i think that is bullshit. yYes they would create swirls of shitty energy around them and between them and their victims, and THAT, under the basic law of LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE, can give them negative effects, but it’s not nothing to do with reincarnation. That’s a lie and it’s a lie for them as well.
Something that’s also important to remember is that these nodules of unhelpful energy are stored in bodies that are discarded when you die. You start fresh with new physicals, mental (astral), emotional and qi bodies, so the “nodules” of energy generating the connecting energy reaching out to someone that’s created them and manifesting as a desire for revenge - they’re all gone.
If you find a way to preserve the astral form, then you keep your mental body and will remember life to life and that maintains the crap in your mental body also. So that would keep hose connections to an extent. Mosyt people don’t and such eneregy is not maintaiend in the spirit or higher subtle bodies so there is not such thing as “karmic” punishment between lives.
Which makes sense as what kind of monster punishes someone, a child, who can’t remember or make amends for anything in other lives - if you wanted to actually punish them they should recall the issue and be able to learn form it, or the “punishment” is only a form of petty revenge and serves no purpose.
Imagine teaching kindergartners a year of school only to wipe their memories at the end of a year and make them repeat it all over again… except they get punished for stuff in the first year, and the 2nd, and all the others never knowing what they did wrong… how utterly mindless and stupid is that? It’s evil, is what t hat is… and it doesn’t exist because the universe, or god or whatever you want to call it, is frankly nowhere near that dumb.
Humans are that dumb, and there you have it - human invention for the sake of control, because of fear based and idiotic, psychopathic mindsets.
That’s actually wrong as they teach that karmic debts can be actively paid off to our betterment. Bad karma is sort of like a soul-stain that magically instigates bad situations for us but we can generate good karma i.e. transform bad karma to good karma. This makes the bad situations lessen. That work requires cleaning the soul-stains as it were, If you like, you could say that we then pay off our karmic debts. That sounds suspiciously like constructive acts of magick. It is.
You seem to be preoccupied with karma as the evil lie told by abusers and controlling priests who want to oppress people. On the contrary, Karma is actually related to (or is ) freedom and freedom is always about responsibility i,e, discernment and non-attachment to the physical world.
Attachment to the physical world is the root of all evil… Working off bad karma is about confronting that evil.
This is why, imo, the peddlers of the Law of Attraction get it wrong. A lot of the time we pay off karmic debts by unexpected suffering and this usually takes place when we got our hopes up about wanting something to happen but it just didn’t happen. That resultant disappointment is a debt-payment. Why do you think a lot of people here complain about their magick and spells failing? They never actually deserved that particular success at that specific time because their soul-debts were too powerful and overriding their energies. It’s as if there is an almighty spiritual police force, a cosmic Law that is involved in magickal success. A Law of karma.
To answer my OP then, there is good karma magick and bad karma magick. Maybe i just described what you’re saying but in a different way.
It’s simple- black Magick is stretching reality for your own purpose. But reality, being elastic, has a way of snapping back. When it does, what do you have in place to help absorb the shock? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is why erotic binding spells wear off and become toxic relationships. It’s physics. That’s all there is to it.
And…? I simply and wholeheartedly disagree with that. Just because, I assume “they” - whoever these nameless “they” are - are gurus or whatever doesn’t mean I have to believe them. Or believe they have the actual experience or credential to make their opinion worth considering. Everyone has a few of those after all, and the religious are usually only following dogma.
In fact if you read Buddhist texts, the firs thing they tell you, is NOT to believe any teacher unless you experience the thing for yourself. As an energy worker I am speaking to my own personals observations and experiences, and doing exactly that.
So I believe “THEY” are completely wrong and only being dogmatic. Thus we are at an impasse.
My next question would be why do you believe what ::they" tell you? I have explained in detail my observations of energy flows that shown me what is really happening - what about you? Are you also just following dogma ore do you have actual thoughtful and experiential reasons to back up your opinion?
Attachment to the physical world is the root of all evil
And I think this is foul nihilistic bullshit too.
It’s not just denial of reality it’s unconscionably cruel and discompassionate to the animal we are incarnate into, in my opinion, and also defeats the entire purpose of being human in the first place, which in my philosophy is to experience living.
Basically this is religious unthinking dogma of the kind that kind of disgusts me, to be honest, and people that follow it dimply failed to observer the world and think for themselves.
‘They’ as in the ancient mystery schools who first taught people about magick,well, people who were ready for it that is. Not dogmatic religionists no, but sincere people who respected Cosmic Law.
Energy worker? What, reiki? I don’t do reiki on others but I certainly ‘work with energy’ too. You should know that every individual is responsible for dealing with their own energy blockages. That is karma; responsibility.
You seem to be seeing the word ‘karma’ here and are allowing it to provoke Palovian reactions in you i.e. associations of evil, monotheistic, dogmatic, controlling oppressive hypocritical priests. Even Crowley spoke about karma and spiritual penalties.
Yes. I reckon I’ve seen the law of karma at work and am not just reiterating dogma.
Maybe check out a definition of nihilism, i.e*. the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless* I’d say you are the one being the nihilist. Do you even know what non-attachment is? It isn’t negation of the earth plane and neither is it about non-involvement with the world or our animal component. It’s about controlling what magickians call ‘lust for result’. I don’t class humans as being mere animals, we are but strictly speaking our animal within is just a component, a tool to be directed.
As for dogma, what about you? Are you merely spouting learned LaVeyan dogma?
If you think the word karma causes “Pavlovian” reactions then you failed to comprehend my expkanation above completely. That mages no sense and if you can’t be bothered to pay attention to what I said then this isn’t any kind of discussion. I’ve explained my opinion and I’m not repreating myself at this point.
We both have different opinions, I think you’re wrong and you think I’m wrong, and that’s ok. We shall have to agree to disagree. There’s no truth (th), there is only opinion and that’s the way it has to be.
I think karma has been deliberately twisted and misused to humanities detriment by foolish and selfish self-styled teachers who in fact are not entitled and don’t know what they’re talking about. The greatest Buddhist teachers agree that I should only believe what I experience, and that’s what I do.
I do not agree that humans are “mere animals” either, and again that’s not what I said so you’re not giving me the courtesy of reading my words in an effort to comprehend. Killing the ego is an attempt to kill the minds of the animal, it’s stupid, unnecessary and cruel, attempting to remove the animals ascension while we possess its body and yet try to leave it, as if incarnation was a mistake and fuck this thing. This is incorrect behavior and too sad for a higher being to torture it’s vessel this way. That is my opinion and you can disagree as you will.
I agree with you about gatekeeping priests and I agree with what you say about energy resonance, but I describe that optional choice and attraction of energy (resonance) as ‘karma’ and you don’t use the term. Is it possible that we are discussing the same thing but it’s a semantics issue?
But that’s what I am doing. Like I said, I’ve done things in ignorance and it appeared that they have uncannily subsequently been done to me. That’s never happened to you? This is where we perhaps differ. I think it’s about what the Cabbalists call Neshamah. If someone acts from a lower part of themselves (on autopilot) then they appear to send an energy out but it then bounces back at them. I am not saying that magical vengeance energy bounces back IF the magician is functioning from their Higher Self; their Neshamah. The Neshamah knows when such energy can be sent out in an evolutionary (dare I say a ‘good karmic’) manner.
Ok i apologise for that misunderstanding as i thought you were talking in a LaVeyan sense of humans as animals…
I think you’ve misunderstood me there. I take the Cabbalsitic view that we have different bodies on different planes. That includes the Guf and Nefesh(animal soul). We don’t hate, deny or ‘kill’ the ego or the inner animal as it is our pet, our faithful dog-self…or it’s our pet-monkey as it were. We integrate it, if you like, we actually love it.
I think it can, but it might not, it’s not a rule but a result of the conditions. As an analogy, sound can echo too but the conditions have to allow it. I think this has nothing to do with the source of the energy, whether it’s from the emotional body or mental or higher subtle levels. It’s basically just physics at this point.
I think I agree I just use a different paradigm to understand it, as you say… since I see this as a combination of energy being produced but then once released obeying the laws of the physical in which it exists, then choice becomes available because we can choose to take further action to change and redirect and transform energy.
This includes the choices of every living being within the area of influence of this energy, and that also includes effects injected by onlookers through their reactions, as well as the actual participants. If a priest with a strong opinion wants some guy to suffer and have issues in his next life, he can reach out of time to apply that to the innocent not yet born. Time’s not an illusion, but it is a tool that doesn’t have apply at all levels.
My worldview is that because we are powerful higher beings already enlightened who have in incarnating forgotten who we are, we have the ability to perform magick at this level, but not the remembrance of who we are to not allow conscious mind ego to influence such decisions from as you call it the “lower self”. It’s hence not coming from the perspective of the higher spirit alone.
Hence the analogy of a rich ocean - it’s not just a lot of water, it’s water teeming with currents, geological effects, weather effects and every level of life and chronically producing energetic effects all the time.
Eh, I haven’t, (and for all those who do good things and end up feeling taken advantage of, we all which this was true, but it’s just not borne out by observation in any volume enough to indicate this is a consistent mechanism, and if you think about how complex the energetic environment is, jhow messy it is, this is not surprising - there’s too much noise for much in the way of clean reflections.
So, I know what you mean but I think it’s rare. Also, as a mage/energy worker you can know this for yourself for a given situation: feel the energy on these and know if this is the case that it’s a direct bounce back - the energy has a quality that is identical, like a smell, is my best analogy, you will think of the similar event and know clairsentient (intuitively) that it’s from that… but there is more likely a situation of like attracts like, which acts through resonance to enhance energies in your environment that are similar to yours, feel more comfortable and less discordant for others and you end up attracting people and situations with energies that blend more strongly with your energy system.
Ah I see… so to clarify, I probably agree with this though I don’t use “planes” as a concept… I have a homegrown worldview that I haven’t really heard anyone else have, and so I realise it’s unlikely anyone at all would agree with more than maybe bits of it
In a nutshell, my feeling is that we are higher energy beings, that we incarnate through multiple nested shells of “bodies” as we “descend” into the physical. Like putting on successive layers of clothing, the purpose of which is provide sensory interfaces with the level of reality (or density or dimension) that the body/vessel is made of. When we get to the physical, we have taken the route that’s more akin to getting in a car… you’re fully dressed, and the car is it’s own complex entity with functionality you don’t need to worry about to make it go, it has sensors that are very specific and also has the ability to move within limits: it must have fuel and the driving conditions must be viable.
So this is standard Tibetan Book of the Dead stuff paraphrased… where I get different is that I feel that car - the homo sapiens mammal - who’s body we are incarnate into, is like a new baby spirit in created by the combination of the spirits of the Earth and the Deva of Homo Sapiens. It is not ascended… it’s the thing driving all of us to want to ascend, a drive from the conscious mind of that sapien.
So now what I see is a highly symbiotic possession of another being, the “higher self” and the “new sapien” - an aggregate being with two minds that can be in conflict, but that you can get to agree and work together. This is why we can “be in two minds”, and have a super/subconscious and the conscious or ego that is the mind of the animal. You can see the homo sapien animal is actually very intelligent, logical and capable - “animal” means it’s a spirited physical being not that it’s dumb. This is echoed in different language in different traditions, the model not always the same but from the Egyptians to the Buddhists there’s this awareness that we can get into conflict where we have animal desires that are survival-based, and that seems to conflict with a higher mindedness with desires that are not tied to survival of a physical being as part of a planetary species.
So building on that, in my mind as and out of compassion for this new baby spirit, I think we may have a burden of care as higher beings here, to help this new spirit develop and ascend. I think it may be a task we have accepted as part of being human, to nurture new beings into the universe.
I think to an extent just by being with the new spirit our ascended spirits are helping it through resonance but if the sapien doesn’t get to ascend before it’s body dies, it dies too. This is why those hermetics, alchemists and people wanting physical immortality are also right - they are hearing the desire of the animal to become more, as we already are, (so, the Lightworkers are right too) and become like us, the immortal beings that can incarnate into different vessels, and are doing the right thing in trying.
So when some traditions seem to try to kill the animal mind or ego, starve it, hurt it and do everything they can just to leave it behind and basically get out of Dodge as fast as possible, they are abandoning the homo sapien symbiote, and it seems like they really shouldn’t have incarnated in the first place, it’s just not what they wanted… hence the idea that they are “trapped” in incarnation, instead of seeing it as an art, an experience to cherish and a job to do. I think some of us are legit trapped here, and actually I feel that too for me, but that’s a whole other story, it’s not the same for all of us and it’s no excuse to starve and torture the mount and deny it it’s chance to become sovereign.
So much for nutshells. Anyway, with all that in my head the view is too different to agree with the idea that “bad karma” can make you incarnate into a lifetime of punishment. The guru that hates his human and “kills” it’s budding mind won’t even get karma for that atrocity - the human will die and will not be retaliating in any way, it was only ever spiritually a baby and way too weak, the relationship basically became only parasitic not symbiotic.
So I sort of agree but I prefer give it (the human) more respect than that, as an equal if very young being for which I have responsibility to raise - It’s very new and inexperienced in the universe and it will die if I don’t help it grow up very fast. But it’s the animal that does my job as an IT developer, it’s the animal that’s empathic and compassionate - and teaches my higher being how to be - it’s supremely intelligent and psychic, it has all the parallel bodies to be it’s own sovereign being. They are just weak nd undeveloped and cannot survive without help to build the strength, particularly in help to develop the cosmic embryo into a fully functional astral body that will be able to live without the physical and qi bodies to feed it energy. In a sense I’m it’s third parent, I’m the wet nurse or surrogate.
So, I - we, really - have two minds, two hearts, one qi and one physical body, working so closely together we’re a 2-being hivemind colony acting as one… the universal higher mind is the one incarnate that I’m using it to experience the physical and develop myself, and the homo sapien animal is striving to become a sovereign being so it can experience the universe. if it get’s it’s chance in a million years it will be like me too.
This is what religion does to people, they stop feeling and thinking for themselves, they take a cool sounding idea, they are in pain because being human isn’t easy, and they will try anything to stop being in pain. But the only answer to pain is understanding really, and imo the philosophers do pretty well, but as soon as something gets pinned down from philosophy into religious absolutes it’s already corrupted, open to abuse and too inflexible and unnuanced to be helpful or righteous.
There’s a very interesting book that speaks to the difference between Buddhist religion and how most of those are corrupted too and do not follow Buddhist philosophy here, and I agree with this Buddhists and his teachers assessments:
So yes I think it’s right to love it. But I don’t know what “integrating” it is as I see it as a valid being of it’s own, not to be absorbed, diminished or merely used, but worked WITH and learned with, it’s more like teamwork. I also love my homo sapien, my human, we are of one mind, mostly, and I can dissociate at will to “have a conversation with myself” so that we can find a way to agree when we disagree. I mean to bring it with me as my “daughter” of sorts when we both leave this body, and it will be a new ascended being and not die. It will also belong in the legions of Azazel though me (as I am) for it’s next stage of development. It’s the “Mulberry” and will have Mulberry’s personality, my higher being isn’t Mulberry, it has it’s own name and many other incarnation names that are and are not it at the same time - it remembers and grows from all these experiences, each one an opportunity to create new spiritual life as an advanced adept being.
A brilliant post, lots of good points to chew on there. Glad we worked through our apparent differences. Basically to get to the kernel of the OP, if I do want to deal with annoying and negative unbalanced people in my existence, nowadays i would first do a divination about the consequences for me before i unleash Hell on them.
What do you make of that? Is it flawed or good practice?
Could you elaborate on this idea of unleashing Hell on someone as being (what you said earlier) a ‘hex breaker’. That sounds interesting. I’ll be honest, i am hesitant about releasing Hell on someone who offended me as i may meet someone who will also offend me so where does it end?
Maybe the better man just has to get on with it and rise above like e,g, the black activist folks during the civil rights era. Rise above the racist bigoted cops etc who taunted them in the street etc? Goading them for a reaction etc Is that what Buddhist energy workers would advise?
