The choice of whether to believe what dozens, probably hundreds or thousands, of magicians have reported, or to worry about whether we’re all exactly equal, not only in worth but in power, ability, and skill, is yours to make.
If you’re pretty certain you are equal-as-in-alike to Lucifer you would probably not need to work with him or any other spirit.
My theory is in our raw form we are equivalent to Lucifer… but right now we’re not(or at least I’m not) . Right now, I’m all caught up on the worldly things. My soul and it’s abilities got desensitized. That’s why sometimes help from Lucifer is wanted
But aren’t the worldly things the very things you want him to be helping you with?
Be careful about renouncing the world, it will renounce you back far harder, and for longer. The newage/white-light scene pushes this idea a lot and for anyone except celibate renunciate hermits and monastic people, it’s dangerous bullshit.
When I say worldy things I meant the formal schooling and ‘education’ as well as the fluoride in water and the media which dumbs pll down. Of course I want to get ahead in the world, which means have control, not be under the control (i.e. the fluoride in water,
I have to go cook breakfasts and things, this book will cover most seeming paradoxes you’ll find in magick: The Kybalion PDF, archived link (we don’t trade PDFs on here as a general rule but this one is okay, the text is out of copyright and the edition was given for download from the site that created it).
Is Lucifer a king with an assigned rank? Not really. A system or organization of demons that are ranked one above the other according to status or authority with a pecking order, ranking, grading, does not exist.
According to Xian lore demons were considered to be angels who had been cast out of heaven for defying God. Each demon was associated with specific acts and sins and each was connected to a saint in heaven whose actions could override that of the demon.
During the 16th and 17th centuries, ancient demonologists developed a complex hierarchy of demons in order to enable exorcists to identify demons and call upon the correct saint to drive the demons out of the possessed. As demons were thought to be fallen angels, their system of hierarchy mimicked that used to categorize angels.
Many still believe that there is a hierarchy of demons but it is really a myth created by the Catholic church which has no bearing on reality as demons that do exist are independent operators although at times are aligned with other demons a ranking system similar to the old European nobility does not exist.
If you do not like it, go build your domain and see how easy it is and to take up rulership. I personally believe in might is right. Nature is like that.
History as proven humans need some type of leadership. We are a herd animal. We crave normalize life and structure. I am going to stop there with the rule on politics…
Lucifer is not a “King.” Lucifer is a spirit which is very transcendent and above all the spirits in the Goetic Tradition (this does not refer to the Ars Goetia text specifically). Usually, the title “Emperor” is given to him. However, he should be seen as a god compared to the other spirits, with the exception of one whom I won’t name.
You can try to insert the relativist dogma into the system, but then, what are you arguing for anyway? Are you even sure you are dealing with the real deal? Rather objectively, Lucifer is the head honcho of the Goetic Tradition and this can be demonstrated simply by using his name to threaten the spirits should they decide to get out of line and hurt you. They cannot be seen as equals to him. He is their soverign Lord and Master. Or Lady and Mistress. Lucifer is neither masculine nor feminine, but both harmoniously. Lucifer is the prime example of the reconciliation of paradoxes as he/she is the perfect manifestation of Singularity or God - and he/she (though I say he to make things easier for others) is not just some lowly demon as described by the frankly deranged Christian worldview. @Lady_Eva would agree with this paradox part, at least, I’m sure. Now, as to the identity of Lucifer, that’s up to you to find out with him/her one on one.
I suggest you drop this modern blathering about equality when observing The Hierarchy. There can be no equality between a peasant and a king.
Lucifer is on the very top. Then you have the 3 or 4 Chiefs. And then you have the Four Cardinal Kings. The hierarchy is fairly consistent.
“him/her”? 
I’m not sure where I stand on it, I have my own methods and get results so, this isn’t an issue.
Do have to wonder whether we can even apply human concepts to these beings and how they organise their affairs, some are ancient gods like Buné (many of us have found to be the same being as the ancient goddess Wadjet), others may be nature spirits, djinn, thoughtforms become sentient and self-aware, wishing to create more power and freedom for themselves and live as fully as any other being, others appear to want to break free of “demonic” trappings and ascend as gods.
Some appear to be linked (Azazel and King Paimon), but not the same neing; and both Buné and Belial appear to put on very demonic, “dark” masks when called by people who expect that, and less so when the magician comes to them without expectations.
So they don’t seem to be an homogenous mass of similar beings, any more than human souls, or even animals. The universe seems to favour variety over monotony.
I @'d you because I was hoping you’d have some infos from the PGM and older texts about evocation, and the spirit called under the name of their Lord/Lady, actually, which pre-dates the whole Christian thing? You mentioned that before, it seems interesting, and may help people contextulise this often-controversial area. 
?? I have explained why I used “he/she.” Lucifer cannot be attributed to just one gender. I don’t care how anyone sees or feels him. It’s rather ironic for a magician to distrust his physical sight yet put full faith in his astral sight, all the while preaching “As above, so below; as within, so without.”
Even in Lucifer’s pagan “incarnations,” the being is listed very often as both masculine and feminine. And this has nothing to do with “11 Gnostic masks of Lucifer.”
Only when interacting with them, and even, it’s to a small degree. In an objective sense, the spirits are impersonal and would be nonsensical to extrapolate things about them outside of our interaction with them. We, too, are impersonal in an objective sense. That’s the nature of objectivity and it applies to everything, really.
Contrary to what many are saying, these links can be comprehended. The problem is, many people who claim this is impossible are in contact with spirits which they themselves don’t know how this works. It’s the oldest trick in the book. Appear wiser by projecting “I don’t know” onto the other person in a fancy way.
I won’t make any claims on this as I’m sure others are perfectly capable of reaching out to a knowledgeable spirit and asking very specifically what these links are and to ask for an explanation.
Variety which is at its basis monotony.
Absolutely. However, in the PGM it’s slightly different than in the Solomonic grimoires. Usually, the magician equates himself with the deity he invoked. That’s why in many spells you will see stuff like “I am Osiris” and what not.
I was just listing a bunch of reasons why a hierarchy may 1. not fit human conception and 2., why spirits are not all exactly alike. But neither are the souls of all cats.
What do you mean? 
How do you feel this tradition affected the later use of hierarchies in grimoire trad. evocation?
Let’s look at humans. We all have the same genes - where we differ is in the alleles. It’s the variants of the same genes that sets us apart, but at our core, we have the same genes. Now take a step back. We share a large number of genes with animals. Although we are so different on first glance, nothing is separate or completely distinct from this one singularity. Now let’s zoom out even further. The ALL is Mind. This quite literally means that the reality at its basis is mental. This is Idealism. There is one singular “mind” which is manifesting in various different ways. Only through limiting itself to the shadows or incarnations can this mind grasp what it really is and just how infinite it is.
So, yes, it does seem like it’s a variety out there. But it’s the same mind in various different forms.
Grimoire trad. evocation owes a lot to the PGM, but also to the methods of Persian and Islamic magicians. However, it does seem like the modern magicians when making those grimoires decided to make their own invention which is supposed to be reminiscent of the methods of the PGM rather than actually copy-pasting spells from said source and giving it a Christian slant. In some grimoires, you can clearly see that it’s based on the PGM. In the others, however, you can see that it’s just plain bollocks, like the Ars Goetia for instance.
Yeah I get that, but that Mind does seem to like to split its creations into as much variety as it can, and then play games whereby enormous numbers of these little-minds don’t realise they’re thoughts, so my point stands.
I could like baking a variety of different cookies (including experimental recipes that don’t work so well), even if it’s just me baking them all the time: this is substantially different to someone who baked as often as me and only likes to bake choc-chip, for example.
The All doesn’t seem to like things to be repeated, identical twins are an oddity and not the norm in most complex species.
Well, yes. It’s only logical for it to create such a variety. The more points of view, the richer the experience, no?
However, when it comes to spirits, it’s a bit different. They’re not biological beings. They are living ideas or disembodied minds, rather. They don’t chill in the astral plane sipping on tea, whilst waiting for a light bulb to light up to signify they are being evoked. They are not limited by bodies so they are all interlinked. I’m sure that you know that as you travel up the planes, the separation is less and less. In the physical realm, a normie would not even think that he’s the same thing as Joe who lives down the street. But with spirits, it’s different. I mean, we are all interlinked. The difference is, they are more consciously aware of it, and there’s less resistance due to less density in the astral plane.
You also have to understand how a spirit thinks. When you ask a spirit to describe itself, what will it talk about? His form? His voice? No. You’ll never hear a spirit say “I’m a blonde demoness who lives in an astral penthouse and paint her nails in her free time.” Unless the person is talking to themselves or something. But, what you will hear from the spirits is their titles, but more appropriately, their office.
The spirits who are lesser and more egotistical are the ones who have an exaggerated introduction with many titles and what not. The higher spirit will tell you what they are capable of. They identify themselves with their office. So, naturally, if two spirits have the same office, it would not be strange for one of them to say, “Yes, we are the same.” Or, “Yes, we are one,” Both of these responses are vague.
Yes, we are one <— That’s true, but then again, so is everything else.
Yes, we are the same. Same what? Same spirit? Same being? Same person? Same specialists? If that’s the case, then it’s akin to saying “Yes, we are both neurosurgeons.”
Of course, things are not so simplistic. There are many, many more variables here. But I won’t get into that. I’ve said enough, I believe.
Case in point: Magic is logical. The spiritual is logical. It CAN be understood, you just have to have a working relationship with a spirit, a flexible mind, and GOOD premises.
Magic does not make sense from a materialistic perspective. But from an idealistic perspective, it’s perfectly logical.
You might want to re-read what I wrote there^ I added 2 key sentences. Bolded them.
Nah, I think we’re largely on the same page, for example I posted this a while ago:
One thing I want to comment on though:
I want to dig into this, so bear with me: in core shamanic practice, you will travel through different realms and see spirits having thriving societies of their own, without names, sigils, or calls for human worship, attention, offerings, anything.
Many spirits will work with you and not give you a name or a seal or anything, you simply call them by their appearance, and they come. You’ll see other spirits there who never interact or try to gain your attention, and the worlds feel populated and complex.
And that method works: I’ve harmed with it, and healed with it, including at a distance and including people who didn’t know they were being worked upon by me, and including animals who can’t have even an element of placebo response.
This was also the approach I naturally took as a child, and with no books or formal training, and it informs my technique now, I will try other things but eventually return to this as my default – treating spirits as “people” with their own agendas, instead of trying to cram them into elemental, astrological, or other tables and make them all out to be “aspects of” a tiny number of archetypes, or anything.
Core shamanism has its critics (most are misguided, attacking strawman arguments) but if you read the source works by Harner and Eliade, they do clearly show demonstrable links to worldwide indigenous practices, and these are cultures separated until recently by tens of thousands of years of divergent evolution, physically, culturally, and spiritually.
All of them treat the spirit world as real other world, with self-aware sentient beings who have agendas of their own, complex societies, and existences outside the moment they are interacting with humans. That got more formalised over time, and gives us the myths of the classical gods, who are also doing their own thing, often unconnected to humans.
Those also have hierarchies, and power struggles sometimes as well.
Could that not because because they are usually approached by humans who want something from them?
Humans such as myself, and i think if I read him right, @succupedia, who are in long-term stable spirit alliances (basically, marriages – a shamanic custom in itself) will have seen many different aspects of the spirits we are close to, including experiencing their emotional reactions to things that happen, to us, in the world, etc.
If spirits are just functions like programs waiting for you to load them, as so many people believe, this would not happen, and yet many people independently report that it does.
Go to any social event, at least in London, and probably most of the developed world, and the first thing most people will ask you socially is “what do you DO?” - what is your job, out of both interest, and to start being able to define you, work out what your status is relative to their own, etc.
Hundreds, maybe thousands of years of humans having a highly mercenary relationship to most gods and goddesses, and many demons and angels, they’re probably over wanting to discuss their hopes and dreams on first evocation!
They know you called them to do something and they lay out whether that’s something they can/wish to do.
Most magick and most religious ritual is a transaction, and always has been. people only even care what a spirit likes so they can give better offerings and get better results. I don’t say that in a negative light, I do it myself, it’s just a fact.
The way I see it, you are essentially giving form to these beings and places. Because that’s what your mind can comprehend, it’s what it’s used to seeing. Your astral sight is sort of a mirror image of your physical sight. What your mind can conceive, your astral sight can detect. I think it would be folly to take the astral experiences at face value. A lot of the things are you’ll encounter are also symbolic, at least from my experience. There’s an elusive depth behind each experience in the astral. You can take it at face value, and say “That’s all there is to it” but you are robbing yourself of great insight.
The myths you speak of are not all channeled by the way. A lot of them are just stories, made up by people. And most myths are allegories for natural phenomena (like Ishtar’s descent into the Underworld, for example).
As for the spirits, they have their own individuality, they’re not programs. However, they’re not so humane as they would seem. They are KINDA humane, but they are also something far greater than that (as we are, but with them it’s more apparent). The guises they take are for the sake of your mind. It’s by no means the entire picture of what the spirit really is.
And as for the cultures, wars, and so on. It’s not far fetched. These things are characteristic to higher intelligences (with the exception of war unless we’re talking about strategy) so there is no reason why they should not have cultures, customs, and so on. All I’m saying is, the spirit does NOT think like a human. They won’t identify themselves with the form they take when you ask them to tell you about themselves. That’s my main point.
Not in the least bit, thank you, I primarily care about what works.
I accept the principles in the Kybalion as the most accurate guide to metaphysics and have had the "all is One, I am one with the All " stuff etc, I posted about that at length here: My RHP Experiences ~ Union, Power, And Decay.
How to interact with forms when in the world of forms is the realm of magick, it’s finding the handle or leverage to make a thing happen that was otherwise improbable, or impossible.
I know that “folders” on my computer are not real folders, that I don’t physically “drag” an image of a cat “into” my amusing cat photos folder, but the chances of this working quickly and effectively are far higher than someone trying to physically type the binary code (not even programming language) to make this happen.
Get up close to a human, and we’re more space than solid matter, get up close to an atom and it ceases to exist as a thing, and becomes a potential, and various forms of energy.
Mysticism delivers these “insights” about the spiritual world, but seldom grants ways to use them. Magick delivers this, and core shamanism which grants spirits the ability to show us the forms they wish is even quicker than grimoire trad. to learn and use effectively.
Do I really think talking goats or wolves are their true forms? Of course not, and no shamanic teacher would ever suggest they are, but they WILL correspond with those forms enough that you can summon them more strongly wearing your goat or wolf paraphanalia, so they are giving us a solid user-friendly interface.
Which is why I said the early shamanic experiences of spirits existing separate to humans were “formalised” - often adding in peculiarities specific to the culture they’re linked to.
On that, we are in full agreement, as I posted quite a way above. 
It is very simple: it is orchestrated according to the structure of your consciousness. Examine your perceptual experience, be self-aware and you will see that your tendency to judge something as “goo”, “bad”, “better” or “worse” immediately creates the hierarchy. Your reality is a direct and instantaneous consequence of your attachment to a perspective. The hierarchy of duality is illusory because there is but One Unified non-judgemental Infinite Consciousness.