Why does a hierarchy even exist

With all respect, I’m just wondering why Lucifer is considered the king. And why are is as humans ( as a soul) considered below them? Can’t everything be equal?

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As Time Passes… over various regions what is written in Books and taught in oral tradition things change. So while you may hear of Lucifer within your location, and at the present time… In another land at a different time they may teach something different. Its just what is popular at the time. Various Gods throughout history have been Kings and Leaders in the Military,.

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In any paradigm or organization, someone has to take the lead. It’s just natural.

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But those are man made organizations… so is Lucifer really king or is that how we categorize it

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What do you mean?

I meant is Lucifer really king

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The choice of whether to believe what dozens, probably hundreds or thousands, of magicians have reported, or to worry about whether we’re all exactly equal, not only in worth but in power, ability, and skill, is yours to make.

If you’re pretty certain you are equal-as-in-alike to Lucifer you would probably not need to work with him or any other spirit.

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My theory is in our raw form we are equivalent to Lucifer… but right now we’re not(or at least I’m not) . Right now, I’m all caught up on the worldly things. My soul and it’s abilities got desensitized. That’s why sometimes help from Lucifer is wanted

But aren’t the worldly things the very things you want him to be helping you with?

Be careful about renouncing the world, it will renounce you back far harder, and for longer. The newage/white-light scene pushes this idea a lot and for anyone except celibate renunciate hermits and monastic people, it’s dangerous bullshit.

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When I say worldy things I meant the formal schooling and ‘education’ as well as the fluoride in water and the media which dumbs pll down. Of course I want to get ahead in the world, which means have control, not be under the control (i.e. the fluoride in water,

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I have to go cook breakfasts and things, this book will cover most seeming paradoxes you’ll find in magick: The Kybalion PDF, archived link (we don’t trade PDFs on here as a general rule but this one is okay, the text is out of copyright and the edition was given for download from the site that created it).

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Is Lucifer a king with an assigned rank? Not really. A system or organization of demons that are ranked one above the other according to status or authority with a pecking order, ranking, grading, does not exist.

According to Xian lore demons were considered to be angels who had been cast out of heaven for defying God. Each demon was associated with specific acts and sins and each was connected to a saint in heaven whose actions could override that of the demon.

During the 16th and 17th centuries, ancient demonologists developed a complex hierarchy of demons in order to enable exorcists to identify demons and call upon the correct saint to drive the demons out of the possessed. As demons were thought to be fallen angels, their system of hierarchy mimicked that used to categorize angels.

Many still believe that there is a hierarchy of demons but it is really a myth created by the Catholic church which has no bearing on reality as demons that do exist are independent operators although at times are aligned with other demons a ranking system similar to the old European nobility does not exist.

We need @Maitre-Des-Biscuits to add his more trad. view on this topic, I think?

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If you do not like it, go build your domain and see how easy it is and to take up rulership. I personally believe in might is right. Nature is like that.

History as proven humans need some type of leadership. We are a herd animal. We crave normalize life and structure. I am going to stop there with the rule on politics…

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Lucifer is not a “King.” Lucifer is a spirit which is very transcendent and above all the spirits in the Goetic Tradition (this does not refer to the Ars Goetia text specifically). Usually, the title “Emperor” is given to him. However, he should be seen as a god compared to the other spirits, with the exception of one whom I won’t name.

You can try to insert the relativist dogma into the system, but then, what are you arguing for anyway? Are you even sure you are dealing with the real deal? Rather objectively, Lucifer is the head honcho of the Goetic Tradition and this can be demonstrated simply by using his name to threaten the spirits should they decide to get out of line and hurt you. They cannot be seen as equals to him. He is their soverign Lord and Master. Or Lady and Mistress. Lucifer is neither masculine nor feminine, but both harmoniously. Lucifer is the prime example of the reconciliation of paradoxes as he/she is the perfect manifestation of Singularity or God - and he/she (though I say he to make things easier for others) is not just some lowly demon as described by the frankly deranged Christian worldview. @Lady_Eva would agree with this paradox part, at least, I’m sure. Now, as to the identity of Lucifer, that’s up to you to find out with him/her one on one.

I suggest you drop this modern blathering about equality when observing The Hierarchy. There can be no equality between a peasant and a king.

Lucifer is on the very top. Then you have the 3 or 4 Chiefs. And then you have the Four Cardinal Kings. The hierarchy is fairly consistent.

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“him/her”? :rofl:

I’m not sure where I stand on it, I have my own methods and get results so, this isn’t an issue.

Do have to wonder whether we can even apply human concepts to these beings and how they organise their affairs, some are ancient gods like Buné (many of us have found to be the same being as the ancient goddess Wadjet), others may be nature spirits, djinn, thoughtforms become sentient and self-aware, wishing to create more power and freedom for themselves and live as fully as any other being, others appear to want to break free of “demonic” trappings and ascend as gods.

Some appear to be linked (Azazel and King Paimon), but not the same neing; and both Buné and Belial appear to put on very demonic, “dark” masks when called by people who expect that, and less so when the magician comes to them without expectations.

So they don’t seem to be an homogenous mass of similar beings, any more than human souls, or even animals. The universe seems to favour variety over monotony.

I @'d you because I was hoping you’d have some infos from the PGM and older texts about evocation, and the spirit called under the name of their Lord/Lady, actually, which pre-dates the whole Christian thing? You mentioned that before, it seems interesting, and may help people contextulise this often-controversial area. :smiley:

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?? I have explained why I used “he/she.” Lucifer cannot be attributed to just one gender. I don’t care how anyone sees or feels him. It’s rather ironic for a magician to distrust his physical sight yet put full faith in his astral sight, all the while preaching “As above, so below; as within, so without.”

Even in Lucifer’s pagan “incarnations,” the being is listed very often as both masculine and feminine. And this has nothing to do with “11 Gnostic masks of Lucifer.”

Only when interacting with them, and even, it’s to a small degree. In an objective sense, the spirits are impersonal and would be nonsensical to extrapolate things about them outside of our interaction with them. We, too, are impersonal in an objective sense. That’s the nature of objectivity and it applies to everything, really.

Contrary to what many are saying, these links can be comprehended. The problem is, many people who claim this is impossible are in contact with spirits which they themselves don’t know how this works. It’s the oldest trick in the book. Appear wiser by projecting “I don’t know” onto the other person in a fancy way.

I won’t make any claims on this as I’m sure others are perfectly capable of reaching out to a knowledgeable spirit and asking very specifically what these links are and to ask for an explanation.

Variety which is at its basis monotony.

Absolutely. However, in the PGM it’s slightly different than in the Solomonic grimoires. Usually, the magician equates himself with the deity he invoked. That’s why in many spells you will see stuff like “I am Osiris” and what not.

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I was just listing a bunch of reasons why a hierarchy may 1. not fit human conception and 2., why spirits are not all exactly alike. But neither are the souls of all cats.

What do you mean? :slight_smile:

How do you feel this tradition affected the later use of hierarchies in grimoire trad. evocation?

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Let’s look at humans. We all have the same genes - where we differ is in the alleles. It’s the variants of the same genes that sets us apart, but at our core, we have the same genes. Now take a step back. We share a large number of genes with animals. Although we are so different on first glance, nothing is separate or completely distinct from this one singularity. Now let’s zoom out even further. The ALL is Mind. This quite literally means that the reality at its basis is mental. This is Idealism. There is one singular “mind” which is manifesting in various different ways. Only through limiting itself to the shadows or incarnations can this mind grasp what it really is and just how infinite it is.

So, yes, it does seem like it’s a variety out there. But it’s the same mind in various different forms.

Grimoire trad. evocation owes a lot to the PGM, but also to the methods of Persian and Islamic magicians. However, it does seem like the modern magicians when making those grimoires decided to make their own invention which is supposed to be reminiscent of the methods of the PGM rather than actually copy-pasting spells from said source and giving it a Christian slant. In some grimoires, you can clearly see that it’s based on the PGM. In the others, however, you can see that it’s just plain bollocks, like the Ars Goetia for instance.

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Yeah I get that, but that Mind does seem to like to split its creations into as much variety as it can, and then play games whereby enormous numbers of these little-minds don’t realise they’re thoughts, so my point stands.

I could like baking a variety of different cookies (including experimental recipes that don’t work so well), even if it’s just me baking them all the time: this is substantially different to someone who baked as often as me and only likes to bake choc-chip, for example.

The All doesn’t seem to like things to be repeated, identical twins are an oddity and not the norm in most complex species.

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