What are your thoughts on magical orders?

I was just thinking about the oddity of LHP magicians in magical orders. I call it an oddity because most of us are rather independent, lone wolf types, yet such magical orders do exist, and some successfully. However, the antinomian aspect of this style (for lack of a better word) often ends up eventually blowing up the order itself. I’ve seen it happen to several.

So, I was curious to hear if anyone out there has a concept for an “ideal” order? Many of us enjoy working with others of like mind, and can see that as a benefit to our evolution. (If you don’t like the idea of orders, this question isn’t for you.)

What would such an order look like?
How many members would it support?
Would there be training, or just a way to socialize and share?
Would it include rules, or no rules?
Would there be a hierarchy of members, such as priests, adepts, magi, etc?
Would there be group study and experimentation, or support for just working solo?
Would it work better if it were local or worldwide?
Would they have to be able to meet in person, or could it work online?

I can think of a ton of questions, so feel free to add your own.

And no, I’m not considering starting an order. I was just curious about what others think on this subject. :slight_smile:

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How to Start a Wiccan Coven: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow . The Pagan's Path ~ Witchcraft & Shamanism - Creating Your Own Clan, Coven, Grove, Study Group Or Ritual Gathering .
Maybe these can help.

Thanks, but I’m not looking for help. I asked for peoples’ thoughts on the matter.

Not sure why I should look at their website(?) Maybe you should read my post a bit more carefully. :wink:

I’m asking for others’ opinions of magical orders in general, and what kinds of things they’d like to see in them. I’m not starting an order, nor am I looking to join one.

What I meant when I mentioned their website was that if you could give it a read, maybe you’d understand something. Know what I’m saying?

There are many, many other orders besides the ToAF, friend. You clearly didn’t read my post.

Again, I’m asking for others’ thoughts on the matter. I’m not asking to be educated on any one particular order.

Oh my bad, so you wanted to hear people’s opinions on how their ideal order would be envisioned.

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I wasn’t trying to get you to be educated. My apologies if it looked that way btw.

I was just saying that maybe giving it a read would answer some of your questions but nevermind that.

I’m not a big fan of orders just my thing. I’m actually fairly solitary when it comes to my practice.


My opinion is that Orders are mostly for two types of people. Those that want to tell others what to do, and those that want to be told what to do. (As in ‘You are ordered!’…)
People that really want to work with each other will form groups organically, but these often will turn into the same dynamic of one or more of them feeling that they are above the others in the group.

As for LHPers being individuals, I’m not too sure. Just look at how many come here asking for a mentor instead of even trying to educate them selves. Lucifer is the Light within. Honor him by thinking for yourself.


A magic ritual in group performed by several magicians is more powerful than individual practices

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There is definitely that. This is the problem I’ve run into. Most Orders seem to focus on the hierarchy more than the teachings, which is why I was curious as to what others might see as a more useful structure to these things.

I see benefits to an Order, so long as it leaves out the hierarchy. There can be great power in groups of magicians who are working on the same goal. Some people do well with structure (not necessarily needing leadership) because structure gives one a “ladder” of sorts to move up in their knowledge rather than being so eclectic they don’t actually evolve.

Good point, as well, and a very important point that any teacher should pass on.

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Yeah, I originally thought that, or the idea that orders were about belonging to some group for the sake of belonging, sort of the bad ideas I got from religion. As far as the idea of forming groups organically, you ever try that? Herding cats is harder than it looks, and if people just do whatever they want than either nothing even gets done, or some things get a lot of polish and time on them while other important things get neglected because people don’t think they are any fun and there is really no intrinsic reward in doing them.

I figured I would never ask for a teacher or a mentor. I consider myself to be a “bad” student. I waste teachers time with stupid questions, demand to learn stuff when I want to learn it even if it is way too advanced for me and I don’t have the prerequisites. Request to have things “now” rather than later, and refuse to sit through stuff I consider boring or a waste of time (while of course wasting someone else’s time.) I also don’t take orders well and ignore at least half the stuff I was asked to do. I will be honest, I was rather shocked when Belial took me on as a student. I guess a bad student deserves a "bad " teacher. Also the relationship has gotten rid of some mistaken ideas I had about mentor-ship.


Your remark about herding cats shows that you too expect there to be a ‘herdsman’ or a leader. And most people think that is the role they should have in the group.
I have tried to work with people on something but found that it is impossible for most to try things that they won’t get any credit for.

Crowley’s “Every man and every woman is a star” has come to mean that people get so blinded by their own ‘radiance’ that they can not see others’ light.

When I said that those that want to work with eachother will form groups organically, I meant just that. People that want to work with eachother.
Not people that are looking for a group to lead (so they can braggingly ‘complain’ about how hard it is to teach the ‘newbs’)
And also not people that want to look up to another (so they can proclaim how they studied under the great Master)

Congratulations on your relationship with Belial. That’s not what I meant though, and I think you know :wink: