What are Angels & Demons?

To begin with, I’m a skeptic. By skeptic I don’t mean a nay-sayer idiot who refuses to believe. No. What I mean is that I require redundancy and independent verification of what I experience. When that’s not possible, then I consider the effect and aftermath of any event to better understand whether the experience was fantasy or another aspect of reality outside of our collective awareness.

My own personal background is rather mundane when it comes to magick. I come from a religious family where any mention of the occult was always considered as a demonic attack upon their sheep mentality.

Between the metaphor of sheep and goats, I’m a wolf. But I digress.

My question is not as shallow as the title might suggest. Though I’ve never invoked Them, I’ve had my own experiences with Them which I’m trying to better understand. I’m interested in personal experiences with either angels or demons. Has anyone asked Them how They define themselves in Their own terms? What are your pos/neg experiences with Them?


nice work on nature of daemons from an review of greek perspective


one of many threads about the issue of demons

there are many discussions about both, angels and demons, what they’re, which to choose, what they do and E.A. and others had pretty much debunked the whole “angels vs demons” mythos that plages the mind of people.

there is a nice search mechanism in the formun :wink:

Thanks for the links, EpicGnome!

I have been told by others in the past that demons aren't as bad as they have been portrayed in history/religion. That may be true for some, but I'm now not convinced that is a general rule. I get the feeling that these things really hate us humans. I also have the distinct feeling that after spending time with these demons, we can start taking on their attributes. That may sound crazy, but I am beginning to be afraid I'm playing with fire here. Has anyone else felt this way? What did you do to come to terms with it and how did you deal with it?

I’ve wondered the same exact things. But then, I’ve considered the fact that emotions (love, hate) are necessary only to the survival of a being. So, how could anything in any dimension beyond ours, where existence is considered eternal, how could They have a need for emotions such as love or hate?

I generally accept the idea that demons are spiritual powers and intelligences not loyal to or endorsed by the Christian church. Some are ancient and pagan gods others are adversarial spirits from the Christian mythos...
I've thought the very same and I could quote Paul on this one regarding power & principalities, but that still wouldn't answer my question.
There is no difference between demons and angels. They are on in the same serving the same master. "
I completely agree with this. Whether you come from the judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions or something other, from my own experience Angels & Demons seem to be two sides of the same coin, possibly even possibly two sides of the same entity... But then, if one considers who the "same master" or entity really is, irregardless of the name, in my humble opinion we all serve the same master... or entity.

Throughout my life I’ve been receiving visitations and ‘fly-overs’ from various… beings or entities. However, in just the past 12 months or so, without any magickal workings or efforts, again I’m a complete novice, there have been bat-like shadows swooping around our home, orange firey globes flying directly over our home, as well as sparks of light and morpheus luminous coloured clouds spontaneously appearing within our home. Some of this we have been able to capture on photos or video. A GD friend tells me these are Beni Elohim.

So, to phrase my questioin more precisely, are angels & demons: aliens, et’s, interdimesionals, or maybe even apps and programs used by the interconnected system we call Reality?

Theo, I would like to say that to avoid the confusion that will almost certainly arise from asking this question, realize that you are NOT going to find a concrete answer that is by any means THE definition of these entities. Some people will not agree, and that is completely fine, but the fact is that magic, like the rest of reality, is subjective. This is the nature of our current perception, we have no way of actually “proving” that anything is one way or the other, simply because we are experiencing these things with a perception that is always dependent on what a particular individual chooses and is capable of seeing.

For some, angels are what would normally be considered devils, and YHWH is some impotent God. On the other hand, angels are very nice, friendly, and powerful entities that are eager and easy to work with. In either case, if you get to know the magician themselves, you can see that these experiences are often experiences you would expect the person to have.

People who have adversarial relations with angels often have huge amounts of drama and trauma associated with the Judeo-Christian paradigm, and often entered magic to rebel. Moreover, you will find them hard-pressed to even admit that while they talk about how impotent the Judeo Christian paradigm is, they still seem to find it significant enough to blaspheme or to continue against. Those who have a joyful time with entities from the current seem to have more positive associations to it, and will often be found analyzing several spiritual systems through the Judeo-Christian paradigm.

So the realization of what they see is completely dependent on them, because these entities, who are able to be anywhere at any time in various multiplicities, are not confined to a specific shape. It’s only what we allow ourselves to see, feel, and experience that dictates it.

The only way to know for yourself is to experience an interaction with these entities. I’ve interacted with both, and even though I felt what i was saying was true, I still felt the need to possess the anxiety that most people have. Yet, perhaps in attaching to that internal realization, these entities, both angels and demons, seemed to laugh at me like, “Hey man, you know better than to really be all that afraid or worried.” Yet, I could tell people that, and other magicians would say it was fake entities, imposters, servitors, egregores, or whatever the hell.

It’s a question not worth worrying about. You could work with either one, or you could work with neither and still attain exactly what you need. You could discover a whole new “race” of entities, and they could easily be just as powerful, or more powerful than the ones touted in grimoires. Don’t take what you read too seriously, after all, the body of work with magick in relativity to it’s potential is still in it’s conception phase. We haven’t even birthed the potential of magick yet, so if the shit is confusing or too worrisome, don’t be afraid to say fuck it and start listening to what you may feel and like to do. You could easily find your way into a magick that is far more potent than any evocation to a demonic king, archangel, or prehistoric deity.

I’d chime in, but I think E.A.'s answer from Azazel hit the nail on the head:

I Ask Azazel: Are You Real? He Answers.

I got an analogous response from Belial: What’s real, but what you perceive? We always were, and always will be. We are the formless void of creation itself, existing outside and inside of all things. We exist in all cultures, yet each perceives and uses us differently.

Timothy also has an awesome computer related analogy I like to use:


[quote author=Timothy link=topic=552.msg7994#msg7994 date=1351240699]

[quote=“RedIce, post:1, topic:552”]Several months ago, E.A. and I discussed this exact topic in extensive detail, and we both agreed on our shared conclusion that the angel/demon/god classes of evocable spirits are summarily forms of interactive software stored inside the computer hard drive of digital existence.

(A much-needed transition from the ancient superstitious-religious paradigm to the modern scientific-secular-technological paradigm)

They are artificial intelligence programs, in a sense.

They don’t “exist” in an objective manifest state until you boot/load/call up their presence. Exactly like a a website on the internet, it does not appear/exist/manifest on your computer screen until you visit the site through the protocol of a web browser (summing ritual).

And like a mobile app, or PC software, or website, these hard-coded spirits EXIST to SERVE US.

This totally debunks the ludicrous notion that we’re “exploiting” the spirits. It’s not like they are biological beings, with limited, physical, economic resources, and we’re exhausting their time and energy, taking them away from performing other productive activities.

This model also satisfactorily explains why thousands of magicians can evoke the same entity simultaneously and all get magick results… it clarifies why spirits are above temporal and geographic restrictions.

…Because, again, like a website, thousands of people can visit it at the same time, and it’ll still appear functionally on everyone’s computer screen.

So, to allege that summoning and contracting spirits is an “assault” on them, is tantamount to claiming that surfing the internet is an assault on websites.

It’s asinine, paranoid, obsolete, superstitious, and fallacious.

Wrapping up, not only do you NEED to perform evocation to be a well-rounded, fully operant magician… but if you abstain from it, you’re WASTING free gifts from the universe that exist solely to encourage and assist your own Ascent to Godhood.

In the end, those idiotic pseudo-magicians you quoted are opposed to evocation, because they are TERRIFIED of it, due to their own ignorance and incompetence.

And it’s pathetic.

Now, I’m going back to work on Mastering Divination, so it’s ready for all of you by Halloween.[/quote]

Sum it up?

magick is a lot cooler than anything else, as a magician you not only work with well known spirits but with unkown spirits aswell… that means nothing more and nothing less that you’re actually discovering a new way for the universe to help you and others… the hell if you become powerful enough you’ll create some of those and maybe even become one of them… you know like those stories about the origin of some spirits “they used to be human”… a fuckig powerful group of magicians if you ask me!

Timothy’s computer metaphor sounds pretty much what I’ve assumed, and what you said, the1gza, further extends the idea and makes a lot of sense.

Some years ago while exploring a very intense 9 hour ethneogen assisted meditation, I kept requesting to be shown more, more, more. I refused to accept the angels, the demons, the Gods, and everything else as nothing more than illusions. I was confronted by some very stunning, awe inspiring forces & powers that challenged my very existence. I challenged Them back and continued to request to go further. I figured that if I had already gone too far, I might just as well go deeper into the blackest part of the Abyss.

I went beyond every ideology I was aware of. There I found billions of entities and intelligent powers beyond anything my brain had been willing to consider. They all seemed vastly wise & intelligent, yet somehow artificial. I kept reaching further until I passed JVHV and others along the way, ignoring the last warning from serephim about going too far and never coming back.

The next several hours passed like aeons. I was alone in the Abyss without any awareness of my body. Still, something propelled me through it until I came to… I don’t know what to call it, maybe The Source, yet I don’t think I was not quite yet outside of the Master Program paradigm. I believe that I encountered the Master Programmer, a friendly, jovial, non-judgmental, Intelligence that welcomed me. And just as others here at the forum have suggested, It wants us to experiment with the Program and become Masters of the Universes.

And that’s why I’m here.

Earlier this year I started to do the Enochian calls. I didn’t have the furnishings, but I thought the calls would be a safe place to begin. I read the calls like how Tibetan chants are spoken, from the throat. Day 1 I noticed a slight buzzing sensation, but I wasn’t sure if it was just my imagination. Day 2 half way through the second call, I suddenly feel a piercing pain behind my right ear and penetrating into my brain. Day 3, I felt like I was riding a THC rocket. Day 4, nothing noticeable.

Day 5 was the strangest. As I began the chant alone at home, I suddenly felt hands pressing down on my shoulders. I looked to either side an saw forms or beings of light. I recognized them as my guardian angels. They telepathed the message, “STOP IMMEDIATELY! YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU’RE DOING!”

An overwhelming feeling of guilt and fear took hold of me.

So, what are the Enochian angels if my own guardians warned me to stop? (I’m aware of the stories of Dee & Kelly, I’m more interested in personal experiences.)

That’s intersting Theo, personally I do not go near Enochian as A) it confuses the piss out of me and B) I’ve heard there are no practice runs with that system. I’ve heard plenty of horror stories about Enochian magick so I advise those who try it to exercise caution and follow he system as laid out until your comfortable improvising.