there are three doors to trance: dissociation, relaxation, and focus. dissociation and relaxation are both trancework. focus is flow work. flow is active where trance is passive.
to do flow work, focus on a visual or auditory mantra and then submodalize it thoroughly for a quarter of an hour until you get a visual or auditory hallucination. that is the transformation of consciousness and structuring properly explained. it takes practice to get it down. the key is in doing effective and thorough visual OR audient submodalizations over the course of about 15 minutes without losing your concentration or being disturbed. if you can’t do that or you get pulled out of state, you won’t get the rapture and the spirit will dissipate. i’m not saying it won’t arrive, i’m just saying you won’t see or hear it.
to get into the rapture using relaxation, you use hypnotic induction to get yoruself relaxed, andt hen just keep using multiple deepeners until you are in hypertrance and have hypnotic phenomena going on. at that point you have the spirit described to you until you see and hear them, or are guided into a somnambulist (sleepwalking) trance where you call the spirit. you will most likely need another hypnotist to guide you this deep into trance, it’s usually very hard to get there on your own.
if you do trancework and have someone who knows how to use a shock induction, you can get down to low theta/high delta state very quickly and be in a place where you can see and hear spirits in minutes, sometimes even in seconds depending on how good the hypnotist is and how hypnotizable you are. they guide you down into the esdaile state or slow-wave sleep state in order for you to see or hear the spirit. you for your own part will be almost unconscious physically and will most likely be lying down on the ground.
i believe erik either was not told or did not recognize that for the last two methods you have to be guided into the trance by an experienced hypnotist. he sold mastering evocation to us without that knowledge and most of us have no choice but to try to get the somanmbulist state using NLP, which is a completely different type of hypnotism. it CAN be done with NLP submodalizations, it’s just a lot harder to do that way.
With respect I think you’re making this too complicated, I learned proper useful trance (that, yes, got results) in the first morning of my first core shamanism weekend training.
That stuff’s too “love & light” and so on for most people but it works and that’s to me proof that the simple will to interact with spirits and the ability to enter a relaxed open state (forget flow or what your brainwaves are doing for a moment) is enough.
Quieting the mind is a BIG deal in that world, for healers, core shamanism, etc., but I did that stuff for 3 months or so using the exercises, and then I found my mind would naturally quiet itself - it’d be like, “Oh okay we’re about to do this, let’s drop inner dialogue and excitation, and focus.”
Eat a bunch of laxatives and then see how, after the first few visits to the porcelain throne, your mind just starts to stfu on certain signals to do other things, because it knows you’re going to be crapping your guts out, and that even its brightest Edison moment means nothing!
Or, don’t, because that’s obviously insane, but the point I’m making is that your mind is just another organ that receives signals of what’s appropriate (which is how we don’t usually piss the bed at night, or start eating our pillows) and acts on them.
Seriously, wait until you feel the normal urge to crap, every morning or however often, and see how much your “monkey mind” is saying to go do other things instead.
from there, the hypnotist had only to describe depth trance to the subject and then talk him through somnambulism. a skilled hypnotist could very likely have them seeing and hearing spirits in under 5 minutes that way.
I was using this definition of flow: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)[/url] - that’s almost the opposite of hallucination, it’s total absorbed focus on a task without distraction or irritability, impatience, etc.
So we may have been talking about different things.
Because I’ve never learned TGS as it’s taught here, since my own stuff works for what I need, I guess I’m going to have to try that method for myself now, but other people on here have learned it as taught so I don’t see why it’s not possible.
In order to interact with spirits, all that is needed is to know or pretend that we are also a spirit. Rapture, trance, theta-gamma sync or self-hypnosis are just names to describe the transition from a mode of perception based on physical sense stimuli to a psychic perception based on psychic senses. The problem that arises to operate this perceptual shift is that willful efforts are counterproductive. Trying to make things happen is to the best way to prevent them from happening.
What I do is to remind myself that I am a spirit. As a spirit is feel my body as if it was an object amongst other objects in the room. This first step is similar to Buddhist mindfulness. Then, I start feeling/sensing the chair, the floor, the walls, the furniture and objects in the room. We can do it with open eyes anywhere during the day to get used to it. Then with closed eyes, we can start feeling the room around us. We can feel the texture of objects around the body. We can feel the resistance of the walls, the floor and ceiling. Objects are not yet seen, but are only felt.
Then we can ask ourselves questions like “what is the colors of this table?” To our surprise, the table to start be seen with more accuracy. Getting used to this passive mode of psychic perception, we soon realize that we have become able to perceive as a spirit, beyond the limitations of the physical senses. We don’t try to make up anything. We don’t visualize anything. We simply allow what is already there to reveal itself. At this stage, we also realize that we are already in the desired trance state. This is basically the first step of soul travel. But is also the first step of evocation.
From this stage, I call the spirit again and again, repeating its name with long gaps of silence between two repetitions. This alone triggers the rapture state, namely a deeper trance. During these long moments of pure silent expectation, I again feel the room around me as if trying to perceive an invisible presence. When a presence is eventually felt, I ask myself questions like, “what is its shape?”, “how tall is it?”, “what is its color?”, etc. And the spirit will start taking shape. I then ask “can you hear me?” and again wait in silence. The answer is somehow known and soon starts taking a distinct voice. I can then welcome the spirit and enter into a real conversation as if talking to a friend.
Best is to train it with closed eyes first. Then with open eyes in a darkened room. And in the end in a dark room with two candles.
[quote=“AlexW, post:19, topic:4178”]Interesting thread. This is the way I do it:
In order to interact with spirits, all that is needed is to know or pretend that we are also a spirit. Rapture, trance, theta-gamma sync or self-hypnosis are just names to describe the transition from a mode of perception based on physical sense stimuli to a psychic perception based on psychic senses.[/quote]
exactly. you nailed it.
that i think is the root of not being able to get it down. whenever i have conjured, pushing for something to happen it never happens. i always got my best results in magick by ignoring what was proper and even by jettisoning my ritual ideas midritual and winging it. i basically just call the spirit and then i feel them around me, then we speak and that’s it. even if i don’t hear them i know they’re there. i just know, you feel it, and things around you get vivid, the air feels different, it just does. it comes to you of its own accord when you give up the lust for result. i have been guilty of trying to force it to happen or to speed up, but it is like trying to grab a mist, it will evaporate. but if you let it condense, it forms.
that’s EXACTLY what i mean by flow. the only difference is that i said do it with visual or auditory means, but you do it with kinesthetic. it’s the same thing just a different vak modality. and from there, submodalize and go further into it until your intuition (genius) kicks in and there ya go.
kids do this naturally until they’re about 5 years old, they call it pretend as if. if you’ve ever played as if with a kid and they say, ‘i’m a pirate!’ they then start talking to invisible friends as if they can hear them. or if they play with their toys, they hold full conversations! they might even ask you if you saw or heard what they saw or heard. and if you are playing along, YOU DO! it’s crazy because we all think kids are making this shit up, but they’re not, their imaginations really do come alive and that’s exactly what flow is.
there you go, you said it all.
but also what CAN be there but isn’t there yet. see, we live in three dimensions, but the fourth dimension is time. so there are future objects that are not yet seen, or past ones that are no longer there. and in flow, those things can be accessed.
from what i understand about flow, it’s not really so much a state, more an intensification. we’re always in a state, but trance is built on changing a state by modifying things. flow is more about being really present in the state you’re already in, to the degree of it becoming vivid and alive, and letting the energy of the universe around us communicate directly with us. it’s a different way of being than passive trancework, it’s more interactive intercommunication and less of taking and acting upon given suggestions.
the way you do it seems to be different than erik’s way. he says he pushes through a fugue state, which may imply effort, but your way is more of almost plugging into the ayres around you. it’s just a connection, really. calling out, and drawing in at the same time, connection and attraction, not so much of effort but more of just being in the moment fully.
that is exactly what submodalizing is. just asking yourself questions about the object, and notice details in passes.
when i combined autogenic training with the sunnen trance scale, i did the entire autogenic training protocol as i have it on this site, and then i did the sunnen trance scale. as i did the sunnen trance scale, my mind went REALLY quiet. there is a part of the sunnen trance where you quiet your emotions, and another part where you imagine your body growing larger than the room you are in. when i did those parts as autogenic commands, the quality of the room changed. it felt like everything in the room turned into waves. like nothing was really real, but a sim or a videogame.
from there, i asked what do i see? and i saw a light shining in midair. and then i asked, what is the shape? and i saw a cube. it took about 3 minutes of asking, but i clearly saw light shining off of a cube on the ground. i just kept submodalizing and the cube got clearer and clearer, it was clear like water but the light was shining off of it like it was very highly polished. keep in mind i was not evoking anyone or anything, i was just testing out the at/sunnen trance scale to see if anything would happen and IT DID. i was not in trance, i wasn’t in a dark room either. i was in a mall food court and it was midday. i was also surrounded by people, and i was reading the commands off of a piece of paper. it still worked. my eyes were wide open and i wasn’t in any sort of trance at all, i was fully conscious and fully aware of the whole thing. it was also not dead quiet, all around me people were talking and making noise, but somehow i didn’t hear or pay attention to ANY of them! the command order in sunnen trance is very important for getting into the flow.
when the object or person comes in, you begin to see it slowly, it looks invisible. it’s almost like you are seeing light reflect off of them, but not quite the object or person. however, the more you do this without rushing, the more you begin to see them and they come in clearer. it’s almost like you are drawing them into your reality with autocad by decreasing the transparency from 100% to 0%.
it’s completely unlike any trance state i’ve ever been in. erik says you push through it with great force, but i found that you don’t push into it at all, instead you immerse yourself into it and it builds around you.
that is the final step and that’s when you’re there.
Best is to train it with closed eyes first. Then with open eyes in a darkened room. And in the end in a dark room with two candles.[/quote]
I could use some hep with this, while I am gazing on the sigil, it does start to ‘flash’ I see auras around the lines and they disappear and reappear, so I then start to scry onto water contained in a black bowl, I do see some specks of light and after say 5-10 mins (hard to tell) the room starts to go dark, or should I say my vision starts to fade, I guess is the best way to describe it, should I continue with this state? (I probably should or I wouldn’t be asking) does anyone else have this effect or am I doing something wrong??
yeah, you’re doing it right. that’s supposed to happen.
if the room goes dark, or you feel like you are forgetting where you are, or you feel stiffness in any part of your body, or your eyes flutter and begin to close, those are all signs you are doing it right.
The System icon means that’s someone who left or was banned before about Summer 2015, because the very old forum used to delete a person’s entire account and leave that, so they won’t be replying on this, but replying to give this a bump and maybe someone on here now can help.