[quote=“Titan, post:2, topic:6108”]Well, what drives you to work with the opposite side of the coin?
From my experience, according to a few Angels, any wrong may be justified. But they seem to be incapable of fully understanding our Desires(if at all).[/quote]
Well, just curious really. I want a well rounded education with all things magickal and the subjects I know about very well, I already know practically everything there is to know about them and I realize that as I further ascend eventually many of those things will become boring if done continually so I wanted to expand to other areas. I am already getting to the point where what I already know is becoming yesterdays news and want to venture out further and wondered if angels were something I should look into as well.
I don’t know much about them at all, and what I think I know is probably just stereotypes based on my childhood exposure to christian family members so what I think I know, is probably all wrong. Even if I don’t decide to work with them, I would still be interested in learning more about them just for the sake of learning which is something I enjoy (bit of a nerd I guess). Are there any websites you could recommend with true fact based literature on angels for study purposes?
[quote=“RavensAscent, post:1, topic:6108”]Are there any angels that see more eye to eye with us in the way that a demon would? Those are willing to help with self gain issues or ascent, or are most angels more concerned with working with those who are more RHP based or spiritually religious? …
Anything else I should know before I make up my mind about whether or not to work with angels? How do they differ from demons, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an angel to be honest.[/quote]
In my experience and based on what I’ve been told by the beings themselves, angels exist as part of the function of the universe and their will and their work are therefore largely similar, which is to say they operate with free will and consciousness, but it’s also aligned with the task of keeping the manifest universe and other things running smoothly.
So if for example Uriel decided one day he’d rather play on his PS2 than perform his offices, the universe could fall to pieces, therefore their free will doesn’t operate on the levels we understand, which have high levels of variability and entropy - which is to say that our choices and emotions have a large number of possible outcome states, depending on our circumstances at any point.
I’ve never had any experience of any angel yet refusing to work with me, despite all the demonic Child stuff I did (and continue to work with), despite my use of baneful magick dating back to childhood, nor my personal commitment to command the powers of a goddess within my lifetime - in fact, just as Belial came into my life as a result of my work with Ahriman (logged elsewhere here), so did the Archangel Raphael, at the same time and I believe (links to Mercury) for much the same reasons.
Based on my experience and the enthusiastic comments of other spirits I trust, I do NOT believe angels, including ones whose names end in “el,” belong to any one religion, region, or belief system, and I’ve never had an angel tell me I ought to pray more nor otherwise indicate they want me to be religious.
I had believed all these things were probably the case myself, the whole background I come from shunned anything with links to Xianity and the Abrahamic religions, so this was a revelation to me.
The Archangel Raphael is really awesome, and my own experience of being connected to the Angel of Lost Things shows why they feel that way. at least as far as I can comprehend it - they live in a state of perpetual bliss, in which the only desire is to perform their function. I haven’t posted much about that, because it was a purity of state and desire that’s hard to describe in any way that makes sense.
I’ve experienced possession, by demons, and infusion, by angelic forces, and it seems that they’re both part of the greater scheme of things, and most are probably known by other names in cultures where “angelic” and “demonic” are meaningless - in fact the Archangel Raphael told me himself that he’s known by other names in other cultures.
(If you want a chuckle, read this - Belial and Raphael, in my life, taking stances on an issue that defy conventional thought!)
I see what you mean Eva, that post you linked to completely changed my perspective about angel and demon stereotypes. Who would have thought, based on what most people believe, that the angel would be the one saying go for it, it’s healthy!
It was truly hilarious, one of those moments you treasure!
That more than anything affirmed to me that angels exist (in a state of mind-blowing bliss, action, and fulfilment, not servitude) to fulfil a function. I don’t have my notes on this PC but either he, or Seraphiel, told me that the angels are singing the universe into existence every moment.
I highly recommend trying to experience angelic infusion (that was what Raphael told me to call it, NOT possession) in order to get a grip on how they feel and understand things, it should clarify things more than any amount of third-hand experiences shared online.
Wow all that stuff is very very interesting to hear… It’s interesting you talk about angelic infusion because anytime I’m communicating with an entity that would be considered ‘positive’ by the terms of our mindset I’ve almost always noticed some sort of shift when I ask to become more a part of them, or in other words ‘fuse’ with their will. And it doesn’t seem at all in a way as an overtaking of will or flood of unrecognizable emotions and sensations, it feels more as if it’s a natural undertaking, and that I’m floating on a cloud somewhere in the middle of the universe with energy flowing throughout all of me.
But if you were to make some sort of comparison to the idea that Belial proposed, and what Raphael told you it sounds as if these so-called demonic entities are about fulfilling your true will, needs and desires and doing whatever it takes at any cause to make these things a reality. Whereas a so-called angelic entity are more about letting you find things out for your own, and not directly intervening quite as much, as if they don’t want to risk overloading our brains, or causing changes we thought we we’re ready for.
But in the end it seems as if all of these entities as I’ve read time & time again without fail are all about fulfilling what’s best for us? Also I read somewhere else on this forum that a supposed quote directly from Thoth is that there is actually no difference between angels and demons the question asked was how do they differ; “They don’t.They are energy,pure clean creations of light,and molded by their most base urge either to serve you and guide you,or to exalt and teach you.Their will,is your will,and their purpose is to help you.Why would it matter how their labels differ?” That makes me more inclined to begin my work with demons much earlier then I originally thought now. Perhaps I shall start with Bune with hopes to manifest more money…
The only thing I’m concerned about is that I’ve read places, that Raphael was the one responsible for binding and striking down Azazel for creating the Gregori, as well as the supposed Lucifer & Michael rivalry we all know that story… So my question is, what about the issue of working with supposed ‘eternal enemies’? I mentioned somewhere else that I tried calling on Azazel one time, but I’ve also been working with Raphael as well. I remember one time before I had actually done my research on the 2, and notice, this is BEFORE I did research on the 2. I felt some sort of strange feeling from Raphael as if I had either offended him in someway, or as if he was feeling uncomfortable with one of my recent actions and I couldn’t put my finger on what it could’ve possibly been at first except the fact that I wasn’t fully acknowledging his existence at first.
But then just about 2 days ago I was doing some read up on all sorts of entities trying to see where they all rooted back and who was all synonymous to who. For example, I guess Amun the king of gods in Egyptian lore is possibly Zeus in Greek mythology. But anyway all the info was just from all sorts of random different resources, and I was mostly just trying to skim through a bunch of it at the time with hopes to find some repeating consistencies, but the more I studied the more I noticed it just got more & more confusing and misconstrued over the years.
But one of the most interesting things I read was about Raphael being the one to bind Azazel and cast him down so now I’m very curious about all of that?
Yes! That was how the Angel of Lost Things felt to me - it was like a level of my own mind (NO, I’m not saying I am an angel) but it wasn’t like when I’ve been possessed or otherwise entered by other spirits. It was like upgrading myself to a simpler more powerful version, and not like something external, at all.
It felt incredibly natural, quite hard to come back from at first simply because it felt so right, so powerful, and so pure.
I would say it was more unbalancing in terms of my everyday selfhood than ANY work I’ve done with demonic/darker entities, including when Azi Dahaka briefly turned me into a kind of psychopath, devoid of empathy.
This was stronger, and more challenging to retain my centre.
But in the end it seems as if all of these entities as I've read time & time again without fail are all about fulfilling what's best for us?
I think if we approach them with our hearts and minds honestly set on ascent, with clear targets and goals as well, then they do act that way towards us.
I think they tend to be experienced less well by people who are time-wasters, treating them like vending machines but with no intent to do any work themselves, or who have no clear idea what they want, and people who haven’t even tried to have any personal insight into their lives, needs, desires, etc - whether for sex, or ambition, or whatever.
IMo this isn’t because they have some funky “work ethic” - it’s because the quality of LOVE, which I still firmly believe is THE most powerful force in the universe (including for demons!) is stronger when you have all your heart and soul set on something, whereas “dabblers” don’t have that strength of desire and passion.
That makes me more inclined to begin my work with demons much earlier then I originally thought now. Perhaps I shall start with Bune with hopes to manifest more money...
Buné seems to me to be the same spirit as the Egyptian Goddess Buto, and she’s been beyond benevolent and kind in helping me connect with deceased ancestors to learn from them.
I don’t see her as a demon (as in, bad guy type), even though it was Buné I first called (kind of expecting a demon, and I must admit she looks unusual - two hissing heads on long stalk-like necks in a dark greenish-black cavern, with the heads sometimes seeming like one face cleaved in two down the middle, with the faces on the inner halves) but she’s immensely cool - in my experience anyway.
I can understand why people think Belial has his moments as a trickster, he’s a little bit quirky, but some “demons” - Buné, Ba’el, and a few others - just don’t have that edge, that sarcasm and irony that he does, they feel like one would expect a God to feel, if that makes sense?
JMO but this division into demons (who must be bad) and angels (who must be cuddly) does NOT conform to my experiences so far, and I promise you I’m not saying that because of ideology or something!
The Raphael / Azazel thing, honestly I don’t know.
When I did the working to conceive my demonic Child, I had, myself, a core sense of queasiness that I was violating some deep ancient thing, some ancient pact of basic humanity, something that (for various reasons I can’t get into) my own UPG after the “birth” bears out - and yet that didn’t stop Raphael working with me, or being a cool and helpful presence.
So with him and Azazel, I don’t understand it, I haven’t really asked, and I don’t have the time to learn to read the original accounts in their languages, which if you read any of the millions of analyses of the Bible alone, is what a lot of people claim will completely change the meaning of something, due to flawed translations and (sometimes) political or other kinds of interference.
What I DO know is that Azazel has acted towards me as a perfect gentleman and with a lot of honour, and so has Raphael, so I presume whatever happened between them (if anything did, if it wasn’t twisted to serve an ideological agenda etc) is their business and it hasn’t caused either one to “warn me off” the other.
I have real life (and online!) friends who don’t like each other, or who butt heads over serious things, but I almost never let that affect me when my own evaluation of the person is different.
That’s all JMO and I honestly don’t claim to be an expert, but if you have doubts about working with purported adversaries, divination is probably the answer, reading on what it means for you to work with supposedly oppsing forces.
I don’t know much, especially about demons. I like to think I do, but thoughts are deceitful things sometimes.
Angels though are always around. I’ve felt dark presence and even said and done some dark things. I ask the angels why I don’t get lectured or abandoned because of my sadistic and vindictive moments. They only ever tell me that balance needs to be maintained. A lot of spirits seem to speak in parables and riddles, but it’s really just common sense to them. Deep stuff.
Thankfully I found a guide (Or he found me) that gives me straight answers. It was actually him that lead me here. Very no nonsense type. I really like that.
[quote=“Lady Eva, post:4, topic:6108”][quote=“RavensAscent, post:1, topic:6108”]Are there any angels that see more eye to eye with us in the way that a demon would? Those are willing to help with self gain issues or ascent, or are most angels more concerned with working with those who are more RHP based or spiritually religious? …
Anything else I should know before I make up my mind about whether or not to work with angels? How do they differ from demons, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an angel to be honest.[/quote]
In my experience and based on what I’ve been told by the beings themselves, angels exist as part of the function of the universe and their will and their work are therefore largely similar, which is to say they operate with free will and consciousness, but it’s also aligned with the task of keeping the manifest universe and other things running smoothly.
So if for example Uriel decided one day he’d rather play on his PS2 than perform his offices, the universe could fall to pieces, therefore their free will doesn’t operate on the levels we understand, which have high levels of variability and entropy - which is to say that our choices and emotions have a large number of possible outcome states, depending on our circumstances at any point.[/quote]
This is pretty much true but one thing is for sure at least from what Raphael explained to me is that the thing we know him as today was " when the first living thing in existence the needed methods to heal I was there".
Which is slightly amusing because Raphael does not enjoy people killing each other(among other things I have learned he dislikes) but Micheal will sometimes act like a young warrior who just loves seeing war and battle on the physical plane and sometimes even promoting people to fight but more in a sort of “war is fun” sort of way. Micheal may promote battle but he despises cowards(think Shia Lebeof level style "JUST DO IT " style speeches from Micheal ). Micheal will always be the best guy I have found for motivational advice or when joining the armed forces of a nation and you need a promotion within your regiment.
Let me be clear, Micheal is Attila the Hun level in love with battle. He also has a bit of a ego to him but not in a dickish way.
Raphael may be the divine doctor according to legend, but he is just as good at manipulating minds as he is healing people. In fact he does so in a way that is similar to the way Belial can manipulate people. Raphael can also help understand soul travel and past lives a little bit.
For some odd reason Angels seem almost “designed” to help people. I do not think however that angels are necessarily thought forms but more of a very very ancient type of entity.
They will say no to some things (most of which are “petty distractions” that can slow us from achieving ascent )but it is more to to with each angels sort of moral code that they under no circumstances will break.
Regardless of all these characteristics one thing I have noticed is that angels are not always serious and will at times “joke around”.
One example is when I was evoking Raphael he started rambling off about how he thought a ship from star wars about how" It’s hidden meaning was interesting" and the moment I start saying something to reply my alarm on my phone rings and kicked me out of the TGS. It was honestly like something out of a TV show.
[quote=“RavensAscent, post:1, topic:6108”]Question. Completley ignorant when it comes to angelic evocation or working with angels but this week I have been adding lots of new things to my path in an effort to further ascend, including adding things that I may have previously shrugged off due to non-interest, but I now recognize that if something could benefit, even if not my first choice, there’s no harming in trying right?
Are there any angels that see more eye to eye with us in the way that a demon would? Those are willing to help with self gain issues or ascent, or are most angels more concerned with working with those who are more RHP based or spiritually religious? Are there any angels that will help you get revenge on someone, or help you get money or some mundane meaningless possession you desire or are they more concerned with issues of divine retribution, healing, helping others, and religion. Just curious, I had no clue, never had an interest before because I had an impression they were more for RHP magicians but that may just be a stereotype I formed but like I said I am just trying some new things to further expand my education and thought I’d ask.
Anything else I should know before I make up my mind about whether or not to work with angels? How do they differ from demons, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an angel to be honest.[/quote]
Well yes, but it depends on what you want to do or want to know. Archangels preside over certain functions, as endowed by God, but will not carry them out themselves. They have other things that will do that for them. As Lon Milo Duquette likes to say, they are “nerd angels.” In essence, they don’t necessarily demand complete obedience or righteousness from the person as many a black magician would be dead a lot sooner than anticipated.
Primarily speaking, if you want someone to die or something, you’d go to the Wicked Angels, otherwise known as destroying angels or fallen angels (although that still has some debate over their intentions). So you can ask one or the other for simple gains, like a job, money or protection/revenge, if it’s approved. All prayers, which magic is a prayer, go through Khamael, the Archangel over Geburah.
There’s two “tricks,” you may call them, over to which you wish to be mindful of. One, they don’t necessarily grant the ability to kill at will, that’d be something a demon would do, if it were a revenge killing. Instead, if you wish to face a foe or wanting bravery in general (as in, confidence) with something that gives you a bit of anxiety like a job interview, a presentation or overcoming a phobia/trauma, then you can ask or make a spell directly for that. It depends on the system of magic you’re using but if you ask an angel/God, they’ll usually agree to it.
Also, asking for help on a test, or to study and memorize things that are incredibly difficult, you’d ask Raziel. If you’re asking for knowledge of someone’s mind, that’d be a demon. Also, if you’re asking for more patience and kindess, that’d be Tzadkiel; also good for finding true love with someone or something- like a pet or a hobby.
Further, you can also say that if you have a problem with sexual impotency, you could ask Haniel for something that gives you a bit of lust- as that Sephiroth is that of desire. Maybe you’ve seen waaaaay too much porn and nothing excites you anymore (which happens) or you’ve had way too much sex and it doesn’t do anything for you. Asking for some help from them for correcting out of whack systems isn’t a problem.
That’s just a general statement, using angelic magic. Anything past this would enter Enochian magic and that’s complex to explain for me, right now, as some things are obscured to me for various reasons.
Edit: Also, some of the demons you think of are actually angels, like Sammael or Azaziel (if you didn’t know) who are angels of death, among at least a dozen others. Be mindful of those as they typically tempt men into greater wickedness than any demon could. If you don’t care then feel free to talk to them. Likewise, some demons are inverse to angels, like Astaroth is to Cassiel. Google their pictures!! =D
@ Ravensascent - There’s no coin or duality on the level you are attempting to connect to here. Polarization between arrays of natural forms yes even flavors of opposition but simple duality, no. It’s very much like Lady Eva said. There are many beings who watch over and even guide the life sustaining cosmos as we understand life sustainment. besides this, there are councils of beings who consider other the relegation of induction of consciousness to incarnate onto earth.
Imagine the angel who killed the first born of the Egyptians or the angel spoken of in the old testament who went out and killed an entire army over night. Then there beings who are said to have been given power over gates to entire realms, like the one granted the key to the bottomless pit. I qualify the celestial super conscious intelligence through two primary arrays, the lesser and greater celestial arrays. The lesser celestial array are all and rules over all light bearing space which are harmonically bound by universal laws through which things that are balanced upon orbits traverse and exude influential field, persisting through micro/macro cosmic patterns, like galaxies, solar systems, microscopic, and subatomic units (but not limited to).
The greater celestial array are the unbound, the boundless, the lawless, the unwritten upon, and the primal raw. The conceptual are capable of accessing these powers by modular consciousness synthetically simulating sensational awareness by adapting the empathy response to the remote viewing apparatus. In this way, even Chaos is personified and nearly translated in conversation.
So the idea is not to consider some this side of the fence or that side of the fence mode but realize the fullness. There’s plenty of angels scarier than demons and plenty of demons I’d rather keep company with than angels. Though, I eventually stopped using such terms entirely. For I myself can appear as a demon or an angel among other things. Such is not an uncommon thing for my kind.
Just be careful about calling multiple spectrums at once. Could get messy. I’m a hypocrite to warn you about that though as I do this to hear debates all the time. You think political primaries get intense?! Try “listening” to a debate between “gods” arguing over consciousness induction… o.O
Just want to mention, this is a really old thread that got bumped so I would imagine it doesn’t reflect Raven’s current views, after all the work she’s done since joining.
They help animals as well, but I’ve noticed a human seems to have to ask them - they don’t just spot a poorli animal and wade in. Evidently the same with us - otherwise we wouldn’t get better results from calling on them, than not doing so.
Not sure why that is but an act of conscious, and possibly (though maybe not exlcusively) human will seems to need to act to call their services to attend to a specific situation. Which is interesting, IMO.
Ah I didn’t realize that. I just pick the one’s that seem to be interesting or speak out to me. I thought this was a good thread. A lot of vibrant conversation that’s for sure.
I recently came across books written by Damon Grand and some other members of a group called the Magick Gallery. They deal with angels, and the rituals are very simple. You may start with “Magickal Angels: Instant Contact With The Angels of Power”. They are available on amazon. Happy discovery: these are very simple and practical. They show simple and effective ways to work with angels.
It can be an interesting exercise to consider that there are no real differences between angels, gods, and demons. They might all be avatars of the fundamental and intelligent forces of the cosmos. Brought into translation and personification by human faith and perspective as the beings we know and interact with. Assuming this is true one can extrapolate a cosmology wherein all pantheons exist, and all beliefs are true under their own spheres of faith and influence.
Moving a step further, it would be inclusive to consider that every realm exists as subsets within this overarching conceptual, or perhaps astral-mental structure. The Christian Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell; The Jewish underworld of Sheol; The Greco-roman planes of Olympus, Elysium, and Hades; The nine Norse realms of Yggdrasil; The eleven Sephiroth of the Kaballists; The Irish Otherworlds(Tir na nOg, Mag Mell, etc); The Egyptian Fields of Aaru; The Islam Paradise Jannah and Hell Jahannam; Even Reincarnation as thought of by the Buddhists and Hindus, and a plethora of others.
All tied to our shared physical realm by faith and magic.
This week or next, depending on my schedule I am conducting a duel ritual for a pagan friend who recently opened her own massage therapy studio. She does smudging to cleanse the space after each session, but she invited me to conduct a ritual for success. In the therapy room I plan on evoking Raphiel to aid in the complete healing of her clients. In her office space I will be evoking Bune and calling for success on the business side of things. It seemed right to use these two differing energy currents for each side of the business specializing in their own area without conflict.
[quote=“Lady Eva, post:6, topic:6108”]It was truly hilarious, one of those moments you treasure!
That more than anything affirmed to me that angels exist (in a state of mind-blowing bliss, action, and fulfilment, not servitude) to fulfil a function. I don’t have my notes on this PC but either he, or Seraphiel, told me that the angels are singing the universe into existence every moment.
I highly recommend trying to experience angelic infusion (that was what Raphael told me to call it, NOT possession) in order to get a grip on how they feel and understand things, it should clarify things more than any amount of third-hand experiences shared online. :)[/quote]
One of my First Evocation i have done was to call the Angel Meton to teach me more about Angel and he Teach me the Same things you said, that the Angel are Singing the Universe,
That was how the Angel of Lost Things felt to me - it was like a level of my own mind (NO, I’m not saying I