Do spirits like Azazel have another name, a personal name? I remember reading something like this somewhere and I am curious. It said that if you know a spirit’s personal name, you can control it or something like that.
This question is directed at EA, but if anyone else knows the answer FOR SURE, I’d appreciate a reply.
You would need to know their language to know their real names…
Even though there are names which were used by a really powerful magician once that with which you can control them, why ? My guess is because that powerful magician was able to bound all spirits and order them that for eternity they would always answer through that name, even if not being their real name.
I often wonder this myself, also how many names does an entity answer to? For example there are multiple names for God each calling a different aspect of his power, just as a human may answer to several different titles and act accordingly to what he is called. My kids get a different aspect when they call me daddy, my family gets a different aspect when they call me by my nickname, call me an asshole and you’ll get a different aspect etc. why would an ancient consciousness that could span centuries, cultures and continents not do the same?
Strongly agree with TWF.
I have found it easier to treat each name as a separate entity and then if as my relationship progress it becomes apparent that multiple names refer to. Single entity then adjust my working to suit that.
To be honest I actually find sigils to be much more representational than names.
And still there are several sigils for the same " name " ;).
[quote=“Soundwave, post:4, topic:1354”]Strongly agree with TWF.
I have found it easier to treat each name as a separate entity and then if as my relationship progress it becomes apparent that multiple names refer to. Single entity then adjust my working to suit that.
To be honest I actually find sigils to be much more representational than names.[/quote]
Exactly, just for ease of compartmentalizing if nothing else. Just as Poete talked about in the Samael thread, it doesn’t matter if a spirit is seen as different entities if you intend to call the Archangel aspect that is likely what you’ll get. The name is just a reference point for a certain paradigm or system.
Interesting that you brought up the sigils being more representative. I read a discussion where a magician had evoked Michael and asked him what would happen if be we’re to call him using another sigil, Michael answered that he would get what he called for, a different sigil could be a different aspect of the same entity.
The real trick is to be using personalised sigils that are either gifted from the spirit or skryered. This then I feel create a specific link between you and the entity.
You are right. In a way. But, like everything else, spirits have a core, from which different aspects of them evolved. It is only logical that if you UNDERSTAND that core, you can manipulate the spirit. Since everything has a name, I guess a spirit should have a core name too, right?
Everything human related as a name, how can you say that something that is not even human as a name ? Not everything has a name…you look into the sky and can You tell me, all you see there, as a name ? No… so i thought…then how can you say such ?
This doesn’t relate at all to my idea. What lies in the sky did not evolve from the sky, therefore the sky is not the core.
And yes, you can give names to something inhuman. When you reach an understanding of something, you can name your understanding of that thing. So when you say that name, your mind automatically perceives the understanding it has of that thing, therefore you can control it through that understanding.
So imagine what you can do with a core name given by a spirit himself. It would imply the self-understanding of that spirit, therefore complete control over it.
I wonder what would happen if you were to line up the sigils and bring forth an entity by every name that they are known by? A more complete version of the spirit in question?
I’m going to have to try that sometime when I get a bit more advanced.
Anyway from what I understand names entities go by are often imaginative names that are interpretive of what these entities are about.
Not really. I don’t know why, but your question doesn’t sound logical to me. How about using angelic power to constrain a spirit to tell you it’s secret name and sigil? Angelic power like Metatron, who is supposedly the closest being to YHVH. Or you could directly evoke Metatron and ask him about a spirit.
I bet that the first time spirits/humans met they were like…
ho mah name is hukra…
the spirit was like…
name ? wat is name ?
Me<---- Ukra -----> ?
Ohhhh
_My guess is that between them there is no need for names…
Energy speaks everything.
Not really. I don’t know why, but your question doesn’t sound logical to me. How about using angelic power to constrain a spirit to tell you it’s secret name and sigil? Angelic power like Metatron, who is supposedly the closest being to YHVH. Or you could directly evoke Metatron and ask him about a spirit.[/quote]
It makes sense in my head. If every known name of an entity brings about a slightly different form, then bringing them all together should, in theory bring about a more complex, fully fleshed out version of that spirit. A “final form”, if you will. You would have to do your homework and make sure that the names are indeed correct though. I can see where any mistakes could really backfire on you. I can also see where this wouldnt work at all…so I guess I wont really know until I try.
I like your idea too, though. But I imagine that you would have to have an extremely close working relationship with such a spirit to gain such information.
You are right. In a way. But, like everything else, spirits have a core, from which different aspects of them evolved. It is only logical that if you UNDERSTAND that core, you can manipulate the spirit. Since everything has a name, I guess a spirit should have a core name too, right?[/quote]
I know where your coming from and I see your point but let’s say for the sake of argument that I could summon the consciousness of a crocodile do you think that it would understand the concept of a name? It’s a sentient being, it thinks for itself, but that doesn’t mean it understands or values how we think.
As far as entities evolving from a core principle who is to say which principle is that beings core principle? What is your core principle which makes you who you are? I can assure you I have no idea what mine is if there even is one.
My original reply seems, inexplicably, to have gone missing. Allow me to try again.
Names are not had, but are given. Naming is part of a creative act, in this case evocation, and it is through creation that we gain power over the world. We all know that different spirits can be called by the same name and the same spirit by different names. How? If the same spirit can appear in different forms, then how much more variable is the name of the thing? How? We know the answer:
The entity , in the sense of an individual, is not real until it is created. Real is an impersonal, if you will, energy, a force whose essence is only given form in the here and now in the act of the ritual of evocation. Then it becomes the individual spirit, called by the name under which it was created, and sent into the world as an incarnation of that force.
That is how the same spirit can be evoked at the same time in different places, and how the same spirit can bring multiple wishes into reality all at once.
I think, however, that these paragraphs needs to be qualified in some ways. Once an instance of the spirit has been created, and has not yet been dismissed from its task, it is real and is probably there to be called by a magician. Hence egregores. Also, appearances of spirits may not truthfully be ‘subjective’. Appearances may be symbolic of the essence of a thing, and that includes the name. Whatever sound that is, if it can be discovered, would be something like its ‘true’ name.
Since everything has a name, I guess a spirit should have a core name too, right?
Everything does ‘have’ a name, but that is only because every ‘thing’ is a human creation. However, most of what actually is, and all that is outside of human perception, is not a ‘thing’ at all.
Not really. You can create something you don’t fully understand and lose control of it.
I’m talking about the core here.
This is not true. Reality is very objective. Azazel doesn’t lie when he says that it’s subjective, he only doesn’t reveal the whole picture. Bottom line is this: you can control what you can consciously perceive. If you knew psychology you’d understand. Think about subliminal messaging.
No, the reason the same spirit can be evoked in multiple places at the same time is because reality experiences itself in multiple subjective minds. And time doesn’t exist in the astral.
Again, I’m talking about the true name of the spirit’s core, not an aspect.
I see. You are weasling around what I have written by bringing up points that are entirely irrelevant to the substance of the discussion. This is obfuscation, but I’ll I’ll indulge you.
Your ‘argument’ is a non sequitur. We gain power through creation. This has been demonstrated countless times even through something as mundane as the invention and production of technology. If you care to contest this state of affairs, a counter-example will not be logically sufficient. Such won’t change the fact that power can and has been gained through creation. In magic, however, it is the primary principle of everything one does: one employs ones living imagination in order to change the world according to ones will. That is creation by definition, and there is no power to be gained in magic without it, for that is magic. Naming is an essential part of this.
I'm talking about the core here.
I’m responding to your original question, not your armchair blathering about your hypothetical ‘core’.
This is not true. Reality is very objective.
Yes it is true. I’m not talking about the objectivity of reality but the ontology of the spirit that physically appears in the evocation. Try again, genius.
Azazel doesn't lie when he says that it's subjective, he only doesn't reveal the whole picture.
I don’t think you’re comprehending what I wrote. “Things”, which are necessarily named, are objects of thought and creations of the human mind. Reality exists behind these creations, . Just as ‘objective’ reality informs the creation of these ‘subjective’ ideas, so, in the practice of magic, the ‘subjective’ ideas can inform the creation of ‘objective’ reality through the living imagination.
Bottom line is this: you can control what you can consciously perceive.
I can consciously perceive a wild bull elephant charging at me. By your logic that would refute your statement … just saying.
Actually, perception is often sufficient for ‘control’ without consciousness of the contents of that perception. Animals, possessing no conceptual language and thus no possibility of becoming conscious of anything, prove this every day. Of course, it’s entirely insufficient for the creative act of magic, which requires consciousness and, therefore, naming of what is perceived.
If you knew psychology you'd understand.
That’s presumptuous of you, much like everything else you’ve written.
Think about subliminal messaging.
That is highly contested, but irrelevant.
No, the reason the same spirit can be evoked in multiple places at the same time is because reality experiences itself in multiple subjective minds.
The principle of identity makes that proposition a priori absurd. Two differentiated phenomena occurring in two different places at the same time can impossibly be identical. They can, however, be emanations of the same source.
And time doesn't exist in the astral.
That’s absurd. You can speak of square circles too, but that won’t make what you are saying meaningful in any way. There is time where there is change. Change exists on the astral, and therefore time, and moreover the possibility to conceive of a dimension of time. And that is all the ‘time dimension’ of physics is: a mathematical construct projected onto a world in constant flux, that is, actually, full of presumptions that probably fly past the reality of it all, and even more so on the chaotic astral planes. If you mean to say that such a dimension of time on the astral will not correspond linearly to that on the physical, so that what might be called ‘time travel’ seems to occur, that would make a lot more sense.
Again, I'm talking about the true name of the spirit's core, not an aspect.
I’m not talking about ‘aspects’ or your alleged ‘core’. I’m talking about the spirit standing before you in the evocation.